Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 10:53:47
In reply to Re: Dopamine/serotonin » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 5:37:47
> >I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
>
> I hope you don't mind me butting in on your thread...LOL. It isn't "my" thread. Go right ahead. :-)
> Could you please explain what you mean by "the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC)"?
LNAAT = large neutral amino acid transporter. Essentially a selective pump that allows several amino acids to cross over into the central nervous system from the blood as there is a rather formidable diffusion barrier (the blood-brain barrier or BBB). Based upon a post of Larry's, the LNAAT can accept phenylalanine, tyrosine, leucine, isoleucine, and tryptophan. However given equal concentrations of each of these amino acids in the blood, tryptophan will lose out unless there is a fair amount of blood insulin also present (carbs therefore indirectly boost tryptophan uptake).
The best analogy that I have read is to think of turnstyles at a subway station or a baseball park. There is limited throughput and some of the people are slimmer/faster/pushier than others and thus have a better chance of getting through.
Therefore at any one time, you can either "dope" for more serotonin or dopamine/norepinepherine, but not both at the same time (unless 5-HTP can take different path in than tryptophan).
> When I took the Amen Clinic brain checklist, I came out "highly probable" in four categories: ADD Inattentive Type, Cingulate System Hyperactivity, Limbic System Hyperactivity, & Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity.
Of course, the only way to know for sure to have the functional scan done.
> Some of the recommendations for those conditions are the opposites of the others.
Yeah, that's a problem.
> For the inattentive ADD he recommends, tyrosine, OPCs and gingko to raise dopamine.
That's not a totally direct effect of OPCs and gingko, IIRC.
> For cingulate gyrus overactivity, to raise serotonin: St. John's Wort, 5-HTP, tryptophan, and inositol.
I don't know how inositol works here.
> For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.
He recommends limbic problems be treated with SSRIs as well, so they can be serotonergic as well.
IIRC, the only DIRECT neurotransmitter boost from SAMe is epinepherine/adrenaline. But there are plenty of other indirect things going on I do not understand so well yet.
> For basal ganglia hyperactivity, the anti-anxiety B-vitamins and herbs.
I've not read up on the basal ganglia.
> I'm trying something to address all of those -- together, which can be a problem, as you know. As Dr. Amen notes,
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> "Since serotonin and dopamine levels tend to counterbalance each other: whenever serotonin is raised dopamine tends to be lowered and when dopamine is raised serotonin is lowered."Partly due to the LNAAT competition. There may be other mechanisms within the brain though.
> I was hoping it would be possible to maintain a certain balance between dopamine/serotonin so one gets the benefit of both. So I cut down my tyrosine/phenylalanine doses and added some 5-HTP at night (50 mg) and also started adding a meal of potatoes/small amount of protein for the serotonin boost. It has helped, but it feels nervewracking and unpredictable. And I don't sleep well since the tyrosine. I keep waking up every couple hours, and sleeping only about 5-6 hrs. Sometimes less.
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> Any suggestions? I already take magnesium, B vits, C, etc. and am experimenting with the TMG.You've already got the main idea: Reserve tyrosine for first-thing-in-the-morning. Gradually add on more 5-HTP until sleep improves. That's all I can suggest at this point.
If you are luckly, TMG will smooth things out and you might be able to drop precursor loading altogether. But that's only if your problem is elevated homocystiene/depressed SAMe.
You can see why I am glad I can just take TMG and not have to worry about balancing these effects out over the course of the day.
> I've been wondering if I should try tryptophan at night instead of 5-HTP. I hate to spend the money if it's going to be comparable, but from what folks are reporting, it has a different effect.
I have not read up on the particulars on how 5-HTP and tryptophan differ. All I know is that 5-HTP is the intermediate form between tryptophan and serotonin, and that 5-HTP can get into the CNS from the blood somehow.
poster:DSCH
thread:272902
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279366.html