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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2014, at 15:18:46
In reply to What he could have said, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 13:57:30
oh. it is you. i didn't think that it was.
:-o
well, yes. i think he does owe you more than that. given what you both have been through over the years. hurricane katrina and the like.
Posted by Phillipa on March 9, 2014, at 20:02:18
In reply to What he could have said, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 13:57:30
One of the reasons never really wanted to get involved with therapy all things eventually do come to an end. Maybe he thought this was good time to terminate and took the cowardly way out and did it via email? Phillipa
Posted by baseball55 on March 9, 2014, at 20:04:12
In reply to What he could have said, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 13:57:30
I understand your wanting that. I would want it too. But maybe he is too ill/distracted to write personalized notes.
The sad truth is that we are not part of their personal lives and, when personal problems force them to abandon their professional lives, they abandon us. That's the reality. We do matter to them in their professional lives. They are gratified by their work. They like, care about, even love us as patients/clients. They really do. But once the professional relationship is over/on-hold, that's it.
I know my p-doc, if he had a stroke, cancer or something, would probably just arrange to have a colleague call his existing patients to let them know he was out of commission or closing his practice. He wouldn't email, thankfully, since we don't do email and he doesn't have my address.
And that would be that. I doubt I would even be informed if he died, except weeks after the fact. It's so sad and hard and unfair and it pains me to think about. But it's the reality of the relationship.
> "Dinah,
>
> I'm so very sorry I have not been able to contact you until now. Unfortunately, I am out on an emergency medical leave for an undetermined duration while I (undergo chemotherapy) (learn to walk again) (take care of my family member) (am in jail/rehab/unable to make or receive calls or emails). I will contact you when I am able to schedule appointments, but it will be a minimum of four months - probably more.
>
> I know that therapists aren't washing machines, and I won't belittle twenty years of building a therapeutic relationship by advising you to carry on your treatment with a new therapist. But if you need support or assistance, or if you need to process my leaving, I hope that you will contact one of the therapists whose names I gave you. I really think they will be a good fit for you. If they aren't available, xxxx of xxx at (xxx)xxx-xxxx is available for my clients.
>
> This is absolutely not a rejection of you or of our years together. I don't know when I might be able to come back, but I very much regret having to do this and I don't do it lightly."
>
> If he said that, leaving out the "continue your treatment" and "new and current clients", and adding a bit more personalization without adding significantly more words I'd have probably been very upset but waited for his return and prayed for his recovery with no anger, bitterness, or feelings of stupidity for the vast waste of time and money.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:22:04
In reply to Re: What he could have said » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by baseball55 on March 9, 2014, at 20:04:12
I'd do better than that myself, with people I work with. So would my husband, he says.
Just because someone isn't part of your personal life doesn't mean you should treat them as negligible.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:23:50
In reply to Re: What he could have said » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Phillipa on March 9, 2014, at 20:02:18
It would be going rather far to change his answering machine message to get rid of just me. I seriously doubt he did that. And no matter how hurt I feel, I must confess that he never would do anything *that* professionally dishonorable.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:28:27
In reply to Re: My therapist on extended leave » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 8, 2014, at 10:00:06
I think I might. If only to make sure he's ok. Or maybe not. If he contacts me at all, I'll assume he's ok.
I'm not primarily feeling angry at the moment. Just sad for him and regretful that I hadn't already quit.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:33:34
In reply to Re: My therapist on extended leave » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by 10derheart on March 8, 2014, at 19:49:23
How I feel changes from moment to moment.
I begin to think that long term therapy is bound to leave us in pain. The question is whether the benefit outweighs the pain. At the moment I doubt that.
But I don't really need him so much anymore. Maybe not at all, at least not unless something catastrophic happens. I could use him at the moment.
Is that due to his beneficial effect on me? Or is it just menopause?
Did your therapist do more harm than good?
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:37:02
In reply to Re: My therapist on extended leave » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Partlycloudy on March 8, 2014, at 21:17:19
Thanks, PC.
I was planning to contact him and see if I could at least discover more. Learning more would help the pain. Even if I learn the worst.
But now I have heard my therapist on the phone, and know he's not lying unconscious somewhere, I don't really feel the need. Whatever it is, he doesn't want me to know. So why should I want to know. Why should I let him be important to me?
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:38:44
In reply to Re: What he could have said, posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2014, at 15:18:46
Who else would I be? Is there someone else who has a 20 year therapist who would do what mine did?
Posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 9:40:27
In reply to Re: My therapist on extended leave » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 9, 2014, at 23:28:27
This has been such a lengthy, vital relationship. There have definitely been downs before -.most because of his difficulty in dealing responsibly with crises. Still, there was also a natural connection between you two - the good fit that everyone hopes to find in therapy.
Trying to think long-term, if it were me, I would want the chance to work through my anger, hurt and disappointment so that I could leave therapy taking as much as possible of what was good about it with me. I think the good is the same for all of us - the sense of connection, the feeling that he "gets" you, that the time with him has strengthened your sense of self so that you can live a fuller life on your own.
If it's eventually possible to go back, and you give it a try, you might still find the therapist you liked and connected with. Anger and hurt doesn't last forever. It would be wonderful to be able to leave, taking the good things with you. It sounds as though you were getting close to the point of leaving, but perhaps had not discussed it with him.
I am in that process now, and the loss is very hard to deal with. I think anger is only a small part of it. I keep going through every possible negative and positive emotion over and over, but, because he is with me on all of this, I feel I am leaving therapy stronger, no longer seriously depressed, and in awe of the power of a good therapeutic to heal relationship wounds of the past. Get me on a discouraged day, though, and I might not have a single good thing to say!
Posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 10:36:05
In reply to Re: My therapist on extended leave » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 9:40:27
I don't think you would have stayed so long with him unless you had what Allan Schore describes as the essential heart of effective therapy - a good right brain to right brain connection, or, in other words, a good unconscious emotional connection. It wasn't perfect, just as it never is between parents and children, but there must have been a lot that was meaningful for you, that you somehow kept finding with him.
There is such exciting new research showing that this type of interpersonal connection actually builds new neuronal connections in our right hemispheres, hippocampuses and amygdalas which help us become able to regulate our own emotional distress more easily - just what would have happened naturally if we had had more attuned parents.
Having shared a part of your life for the past 10 years, I have a sense that you have been accomplishing this in therapy, and indeed were becoming ready to leave him. Do you think the same?
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 18:01:44
In reply to Some further thoughts... » Twinleaf, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 10:36:05
The person who called me back from the referral agency said, of course, that she wasn't authorized to tell me anything. But she did tell me he wasn't dying. If I read my tones right, which I may well not, she sounded rather dry.
So at least all I have to mourn is the dead relationship, and I don't have to feel guilty about doing it.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 18:02:44
In reply to He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 18:01:44
Posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 18:53:18
In reply to He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 18:01:44
There's nothing worse than just a tiny amount of information!
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:28:32
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 18:53:18
I'm actually surprisingly buoyant. Don't ask me why. Something about the way she answered allowed me to create an entire believable scenario that suits my mind quite well. Even if I've made it entirely up, it makes me feel less rejected. Even if I think it's unforgivable not to make "not dying" clear from the start.
Or maybe I'm just glad he's not dying and is probably not grievously ill, not physically or terminally at least. He may be flawed as a therapist-mommy, but I didn't want to think he was dying. He may have hurt me over and over again, but I do dearly love him.
This might be the giddy relief to hear he's not dying, and I may feel bitter in an hour or two. I seriously doubt I'll ever hear from him to schedule another session. No matter what, I've lost a relationship that meant a lot to me. That's something I'll probably grieve for a very long time.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:38:28
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 18:53:18
I meant to ask. It sounds as if you too are heading towards a parting. Was it your idea?
Posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 21:15:31
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:38:28
Yes. He's retiring. But, truthfully, I think I was getting towards the end of the therapy. Things were generally more stable and calm, the depression either absent or at most mild, and he wasn't so very important to me emotionally any longer. I feel I got a lot out of it, but still, it does feel like a terrible loss. One just never wants these relationships to end!
Overall, we are definitely doing OK - the actual ending time is June. What will I ever write to Babble afterwards??,
Posted by Willful on March 11, 2014, at 9:51:59
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 21:15:31
Deep relationships don't seem as if they should end-- not arbitrarily because you're 'better'-- why should they really? it seems so irrelevant to anything except the fact that it's a business relationship at one level-- so of course, they have achieved their "purpose". IT's all so artificial-- the one thing that isn't is the relationship and whatever you learn and however you grow.
But I suppose these traditions have a strong hold.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:28:32
Hi, everyone,
Dinah, I'm glad Babble is still here for you. (I am, too.)
Anger and hurt is one thing. Feeling negligible is another. I'm reminded of when I went AWOL here. Maybe even more disturbing than hearing from an impersonal note was not hearing anything.
Bob
--
> Obviously something is very wrong with someone I care about a lot, but I don't know what.
>
> I think I'm just finished, and am determined not to care about anyone ever again outside my immediate family.
>
> Dinah> I can't imagine anything more disturbing that hearing from an impersonal note that my therapist, whom I have seen for many years, and who is one of the most trusted people in my life has suddenly, inexplicably and possibly disastrously disappeared.
>
> Willful> I wanted to talk with people who would understand
>
> It just isn't worth it. I wish I could do the last twenty years over again.
>
> Dinah> I feel like I did when Daddy died. As if I'm breathing out pain.
>
> Dinah> The simple truth is that I mean no more to him than client #2182. ... I am destined to care more than I am cared for.
>
> Dinah> We all missed you, Dinah.
>
> Partlycloudy> Thank you, everyone. I knew you would understand.
>
> Dinah> Dinah, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive him a little after time.
>
> It will be better for your heart if you do-- bitterness is something I've experienced and it takes a lot of work to undo it once you've fallen into it-- I'm working on it myself and it does have a strong hold-- so try not to let it take over-- You're a fighter and you can be strong and loving enough to see through the incredibly disappointing and failed therapist to the person beneath-- We don;t know about his life, his childhood, the failings of maturation or growth that have left him so vulnerable to fear-- and so prone to running away-- leaving others to cope alone.
>
> But whatever it is, he's human, all too human-- and deserves compassion most when he's done so wrongly-- I'm sure in his heart he knows-- that you deserved better.
>
> Willful> Just because someone isn't part of your personal life doesn't mean you should treat them as negligible.
>
> Dinah> If it's eventually possible to go back, and you give it a try, you might still find the therapist you liked and connected with. Anger and hurt doesn't last forever. It would be wonderful to be able to leave, taking the good things with you.
>
> Twinleaf> Something about the way she answered allowed me to create an entire believable scenario that suits my mind quite well. Even if I've made it entirely up, it makes me feel less rejected.
>
> He may be flawed as a therapist-mommy, but I didn't want to think he was dying. He may have hurt me over and over again, but I do dearly love him.
>
> This might be the giddy relief to hear he's not dying, and I may feel bitter in an hour or two. I seriously doubt I'll ever hear from him to schedule another session. No matter what, I've lost a relationship that meant a lot to me. That's something I'll probably grieve for a very long time.
>
> Dinah
Posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 14:42:46
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 21:15:31
Dinah, if he is able to return to his practice, I can't imagine that he would not contact you. If he didn't, that would truly be abysmal behavior on his part after a 20-year therapeutic relationship.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:30:13
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
> Anger and hurt is one thing. Feeling negligible is another. I'm reminded of when I went AWOL here. Maybe even more disturbing than hearing from an impersonal note was not hearing anything.
>
> BobI think I tolerated your absence a lot more than I tolerated having you come back and be a different person with different values, and ones that don't match mine at that. As much as you exasperated me at times, you at least were fairly predictable.
Tho admittedly, negligible is a feeling that is not infrequent in my life.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:35:52
In reply to Re: He's not dying Dinah, posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 14:42:46
*If* he returns to his practice, I daresay he will call. And I would go back at least once to say goodbye.
But if what I theorize happened is what actually happened, I think the chances are not good. Not that I have any really better reason to believe my current theory than my former fears. But they aren't quite as hurtful, so I'm going with them.
I'd like to think that he would know that as long as he didn't reject me, I wouldn't really reject him no matter what's going on in his life. Self preservation would be the main thing to make me hate him. But he might not realize that.
Oh well. I have at least four months, probably much longer, before I figure out if I need to try to email him to let him know that I'd like to schedule an appointment when he's able.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:43:46
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Willful on March 11, 2014, at 9:51:59
But if a relationship can end that easily, is it actually a real relationship? I struggle with that. I really do. People can drift apart or move apart, but that just means they don't see each other often. I retain my good feelings about high school friends. Some I contact now and then. I'm considering facebook to see if I can keep in touch with what's going on with them. Other more casual friends are still very welcome when I happen to run into them.
The relationship doesn't just cut off entirely. There isn't the sense that we're never supposed to contact each other.
How can that really be a real caring relationship?
I veer between just being happy he's not dying, to being shocked that I can't contact him and tell him how happy I am that he's not dying. One moment he seems like someone who was part of my life a long time ago. The next minute I'm shaking and trying not to howl at the unfairness. One moment I'm feeling sorry for him, the next I am just totally baffled as to how this could happen.
It's more complicated, somehow, than traditional mourning.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
If you're actually here for me, can you possibly explain to me how this could happen? How can someone who loved me as a therapy-daughter let this happen? Even if he isn't able to contact me, isn't it possible for him to have someone else contact me for him?
Is it just because I'm no longer useful to him? Does caring depend on usefulness?
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:51:28
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
Even if it's beyond his control, it hurts so much.
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