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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by qqqsimmons on April 3, 2006, at 23:29:36
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - anxiety, posted by LOOPS on March 29, 2006, at 17:40:13
another thanks for the article. melatonin inhibits some dopamine release (http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/687). i wonder if one could combine fish oil and melatonin and get benefits from both, and what the corresponding dosages would be...
Posted by LOOPS on April 4, 2006, at 10:04:40
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - dopamine, posted by qqqsimmons on April 3, 2006, at 23:29:36
Hi -
I took fish oil and melatonin for ages - 1mg melatonin every night. Initially it worked but after awhile I would be waking up completely after 2 hours sleep at night. Eventually the melatonin stopped working completely. I took a break but it never started working again even after this. It worked great though for about 2 months. It did seem to make me less anxious.
Loops
Posted by qqqsimmons on April 4, 2006, at 18:00:11
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - dopamine, posted by LOOPS on April 4, 2006, at 10:04:40
did the anti-anxiety effect go away after two months too?
anyway, right now i take 100mg DHA per day, Source Naturals brand Neuromins. Kind of expensive but it's hard to get a small dose of fish oil.
i like DHA cuz it's supposed to have a shorter half-life than EPA.
Posted by LOOPS on April 6, 2006, at 10:57:57
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - dopamine, posted by qqqsimmons on April 4, 2006, at 18:00:11
high DHA pills definitely made me worse - irritable with anxiety. And this was on a pill that had 200mg EPA/200mg DHA. I got better on 400mgEPA/200mg DHA pills.
Loops
Posted by qqqsimmons on April 6, 2006, at 18:48:59
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - dopamine, posted by LOOPS on April 6, 2006, at 10:57:57
yeah, i can't take the usual 120 mg dha, 180 mg epa pill per day. i love how the bottle says "take three per day". do most people have no psychoactive side-effect or what? i mean, insomnia is never mentioned as a side effect in the usual stuff on fish oil.
i'm taking microdoses of melatonin this week. 100mg or less per day. definitely helps me with overstimulation. hopefully this effect doesn't wear off like you suggested.
Posted by LOOPS on April 7, 2006, at 9:22:26
In reply to Re: dopamine / fish oil / melatonin, posted by qqqsimmons on April 6, 2006, at 18:48:59
I lied!
Last night I took 1mg melatonin as I couldn't see the harm in it even if it didn't work for me again. Basically I've sworn myself off any sleep meds and am willing to bite the bullet with insomnia instead, so as you can see I had nothing to lose.
WEll it worked again. Granted, my sleep was pretty broken and completely jam packed with dreaming and tossing and turning all night (had previously taken some P5P and cal/mag/zinc) but the point is I slept without meds.
A couple of days ago I had a 'sleep deprivation experience' which turned out pretty good ironically. Didn't get much sleep (let's say 4 hours tops), got up very groggy and then had a completely great day despite being tired. No anxiety, depression had lifted and motivation to do stuff round the house that I've been putting off for donkeys was high. Ended the day with a band practice which was storming then crashed into bed. Didn't actually sleep well after this, but then that isn't unusual.
So this is encouraging. It means that not getting enough sleep is not necessarily going to make me feel like pants the next day. Which is the original reason I started taking the sleeping pills.
I really think fish oil will potentiate anything else you take, but alone it never really did squat for me apart from if I took huge amounts and lowered all the other fats in my diet. Then it worked for depression but the anxiety started to get a bit high.
Loops
Posted by qqqsimmons on April 7, 2006, at 17:01:55
In reply to Re: dopamine / fish oil / melatonin, posted by LOOPS on April 7, 2006, at 9:22:26
glad to hear the melatonin helped again, at least once. before, i'd gotten nervous about it cuz there was talk here about melatonin "causing" physical depression (by physical, i mean depression of the brain and body, not just negative thinking). but for me fish oil kicks any physical depression's *ss. although if i'm having negative thoughts, it may just give me more energy to think negatively...
it seems i can take a bit of melatonin any time of day and i'll sleep better that night. i may feel a bit sluggish at work, but some times the slowing of thoughts is good when dealing with people.
Posted by qqqsimmons on April 8, 2006, at 10:42:56
In reply to Re: dopamine / fish oil / melatonin, posted by qqqsimmons on April 7, 2006, at 17:01:55
i think melatonin is causing me to lose muscle. i weighed 150 lbs this morning. i looked on wikipedia.org this morning and read how it reduces luteinizing hormone, which affects testosterone.
i guess the herb tribulus (puncture vine) will restore LH. i tried some once or twice and got insomnia.
maybe micro-doses of each could counterbalance each other. or i could just try to sleep naturally...
Posted by LOOPS on April 9, 2006, at 9:33:58
In reply to melatonin / luteinizing hormone, posted by qqqsimmons on April 8, 2006, at 10:42:56
Hi -
you said you take 100mg melatonin- I assume you mean 100mcg?
As regards muscle loss, I play tennis every day and am definintely not losing muscle. Melatonin never affected this for me.
I slept again last night without pills - again, 1mg melatonin (and dolomite pills). Woke up too early but did go back to sleep again.
I've never tried melatonin in the day - sounds interesting. It seems fair to say anything which is calming has the potential to be depressing (apart from taurine which seems to have both calming and stimulating properties).
Loops
Posted by stephano on May 22, 2006, at 20:48:45
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil?, posted by sdb on March 20, 2006, at 15:04:46
Ahhhh fish oil! Yet another example of this arbitrary distinction between what is 'natural' (and thus supposedly safer) versus pharmaceutical/chemical.
Fish oil really messed with my head! (and I see that it's affected others too)
I have had ME/CFS for ten years...and there is no doubt that an effective dopamine problem plays a role in this condition. But simply "boosting" dopamine has caused some scary effects...perhaps because dopamine receptors are upregulated/overly sensitised due to such a long period of low levels. (Pure speculation)
What I do know is that taking 3 fish oil capsules (i.e following the directions!) had a noticeable positive effect on excercise tolerance/stamina, body temperature (I'm always freezing cold and it warmed me up nicely) appetite and mood...BUT (big, big BUT) it went too far and brought on symptoms which felt like the beginnings of psychosis. Distorted reality, anxiety, disassociative state....I can tell you I had to grit my teeth to hold it together. Scary...but less so once you realise what's caused it and that you're not actually developing schizophrenia. Obviously such a rection would be rare...but the label should specify starting at low doses and working upwards slowly.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 8:34:41
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil?, posted by stephano on May 22, 2006, at 20:48:45
> Obviously such a rection would be rare...but the label should specify starting at low doses and working upwards slowly.
I don't think that fish oil is very far removed from the fish, so as to move it into a different realm than any other nutrient. If fish oil is a problem, why not just eat more fish?
Idiosyncratic reactions, i.e. those limited to your personal experience which fall outside typical response, are yours to discover. It's your duty, to yourself, to figure it out. If 3 g/day fish oil is too much, don't swallow so much of it. Ya know?
Lar
Posted by stephano on May 25, 2006, at 18:08:03
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? » stephano, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 8:34:41
> > Obviously such a rection would be rare...but the label should specify starting at low doses and working upwards slowly.
>
> I don't think that fish oil is very far removed from the fish, so as to move it into a different realm than any other nutrient. If fish oil is a problem, why not just eat more fish?
>
> Idiosyncratic reactions, i.e. those limited to your personal experience which fall outside typical response, are yours to discover. It's your duty, to yourself, to figure it out. If 3 g/day fish oil is too much, don't swallow so much of it. Ya know?
>
> Lar
>Wow- I am bowled over by the wisdom in this response. "Don't take so much of it!" Spectacular- why didn't I think of that!
The point (consistent with the point of the posts on this topic, which you seem to be ignoring) is that people can have bad reactions to fish oil- Perhaps you might have noted that others have also had some negative responses, such as anxiety? Taking three capsules a day is the recommended dosage on the bottle; I didn't roll dice to come up with this figure. I am saying that it, like anything else that can have a quite significant effect on neurotransmitters, should be used with care. The fact that there is a (sometimes) arbitrary distinction between drugs and "supplements" means that something like fish oil might be used with less care than a drug. So- I'm saying labels should say to start off low and build up once you've registered your response.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2006, at 19:52:03
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil?, posted by stephano on May 25, 2006, at 18:08:03
> > > Obviously such a rection would be rare...but the label should specify starting at low doses and working upwards slowly.
> >
> > I don't think that fish oil is very far removed from the fish, so as to move it into a different realm than any other nutrient. If fish oil is a problem, why not just eat more fish?
> >
> > Idiosyncratic reactions, i.e. those limited to your personal experience which fall outside typical response, are yours to discover. It's your duty, to yourself, to figure it out. If 3 g/day fish oil is too much, don't swallow so much of it. Ya know?
> >
> > Lar
> >
>
> Wow- I am bowled over by the wisdom in this response. "Don't take so much of it!" Spectacular- why didn't I think of that!I'm sorry. I didn't speak with condescension, but I can understand that you could have felt that way. Some people respond to substances a full order of magnitude apart in dose (a power of ten) from that required by others. I meant a rhetorical sense, but again, I'm sorry.
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 1, 2006, at 9:51:55
In reply to Re: FOOD FOR THOUGHT-Omega 3, posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 19:13:29
I take take two capsules of concentrated fish oil corresponding to 4 grams of regular fish oil. If I take more it will cause insomnia and dizziness.
Posted by LOOPS on June 4, 2006, at 8:12:47
In reply to Fish oil can cause insomnia and dizziness, posted by dessbee on June 1, 2006, at 9:51:55
So I was looking on the back of the packet of salmon I usually buy here in Chile, and was SHOCKED at how much omega-3 one small piece (100g) contains - 3g. That's 3 GRAMS OF ACTUAL OMEGA-3 (presumably EPA, DPA & DHA & ALA combined). That's like 5 of my double-concentrated pills in one little piece. I suppose some of that gets destroyed in cooking though - maybe I should eat it lightly cooked.
I mean, that's a huge amount.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2006, at 18:05:08
In reply to fish oil concentration of chilean farmed salmon, posted by LOOPS on June 4, 2006, at 8:12:47
> So I was looking on the back of the packet of salmon I usually buy here in Chile, and was SHOCKED at how much omega-3 one small piece (100g) contains - 3g. That's 3 GRAMS OF ACTUAL OMEGA-3 (presumably EPA, DPA & DHA & ALA combined). That's like 5 of my double-concentrated pills in one little piece. I suppose some of that gets destroyed in cooking though - maybe I should eat it lightly cooked.
>
> I mean, that's a huge amount.
>
> LoopsThat's pretty typical of farmed salmon, which is actually 20-50% higher than is wild caught. Depending on a whole slew of variables.
I wouldn't worry much about the cooking. Because fish is moist, the flesh temperature cannot exceed the range of temps for liquid water. The PUFAs are not especially vulnerable to degredation in those temp ranges, and the brief cooking times. Still, you could try ceviche, as an alternative. Or cook with lemon or rosemary, which are antioxidant. Ya know?
Yes, eating the whole dang fish is a good idea. There are lots of other good things in fish, too.
I like canned salmon because the bones are steamed to the point that you can eat them. All that calcium and magnesium, so readily available (if stomach acid is up to the task). Plus the omegas etc. I get tinned salmon at $.99-1.49. I figure one tin is good for 4-6 grams omega-3s. You can see globules of fat in the liquid in the tin. All good fat. Very high quality protein.
Sometimes I splurge and eat a whole salmon. Up to about 5 lbs, just baked. I have no idea how good that is for me. It just is good to eat.
Lar
Posted by qqqsimmons on June 5, 2006, at 11:06:34
In reply to Fish oil can cause insomnia and dizziness, posted by dessbee on June 1, 2006, at 9:51:55
yeah, i'm more sensitive to the stuff. i bought some today that has 55mg dha and 85mg epa (enzymatic therapy), so i can micro-dose and not wake up at three in the morning.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 4, 2006, at 20:46:35
In reply to Side effects from fish oil?, posted by April8 on March 16, 2006, at 14:14:07
I've just started a fish oil regimen (approx 1g EPA, 700mg DHA in the morning), and found it to cause insomnia--which is too bad, because otherwise it really seems to help.
Does anyone know what the half-lives of DHA and EPA are? Does the dose build up in your blood (or fatty tissue) over a period of days or weeks?
There was some talk that DHA is metabolised faster, so I am trying to figure out if, say, switching to a DHA-heavy supplement might help the insomnia, or if there is some other solution?
PS
I take it with green tea, or green tea extract, which seems to add to the positive effect on mood and concentration.
Posted by jedi on October 4, 2006, at 21:23:37
In reply to Fish oil, half-life, insomnia, posted by psychobot5000 on October 4, 2006, at 20:46:35
> I've just started a fish oil regimen (approx 1g EPA, 700mg DHA in the morning), and found it to cause insomnia--which is too bad, because otherwise it really seems to help.
...Hi,
I take about the same dosage as you on a daily basis. Give the fish oil some time. Initially, I had bad insomnia. But, it went away fairly fast. I started Omega-3s a long time ago, so I don't remember exactly how long the insomnia lasted. Initially, it worked so well on my depression, that I was able to stop taking Nardil. However, after several months the depression returned, so back on the MAOI. I now use the Omega-3s as an augmentor and for it's overall positive effects on the heart and health.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by LOOPS on October 5, 2006, at 8:08:39
In reply to Re: Fish oil, half-life, insomnia » psychobot5000, posted by jedi on October 4, 2006, at 21:23:37
Hi -
I found magnesium good for insomnia (always had insomnia with or without fish oil) - several months Mg only, then add in calcium as well, along with some melatonin. Fish oil initially made me a bit too energized - this calmed down though. Right now I'm not taking any coz I'm broke so I'm eating canned sardines instead. I still get insomnia, but that is because my sleep schedule is really hectic due to playing late in a band and I've been out partying too much - so my own fault. When I stay in and go to bed early the above supps do the trick.
Loops
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 5, 2006, at 8:50:47
In reply to Re: Fish oil, half-life, insomnia » psychobot5000, posted by jedi on October 4, 2006, at 21:23:37
Glad to hear the insomnia tends to disappear--I suppose I can also experiment with the dose--I already take herbs and whatnot for sleep, but perhaps I may try adding something like Doxepin (low dose), for sleep.
I take tianeptine regularly (a serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake-enhancer), which is pretty good for mood, but the fish-oil seems to be helping with energy and motivation. I hope a good portion of the benefit stays around, without the insomnia. The benefits are good, so far. Also may switch to a primarily EPA source, though I suppose that might make the insomnia worse. We'll see, I guess.
P-bot
Posted by calvin coolidge on February 2, 2009, at 9:31:17
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? » April8, posted by jedi on March 16, 2006, at 14:42:28
I've had the exact oppossite reaction from fish oil. My insomnia is gone. After 8 weeks of taking 2000mg/day I am sleeping better than I have in years.
I quit drinking 5 years ago and since then I had been suffering from rather severe insomnia. And when I did sleep it was poorly- waking every hour or so- never deeply.
I started taking Wellbutrin shortly after I stopped drinking on a doctor's recommendation and it did help me with the mild depressive disorder I had been diagnosed with but I also think it contributed to my bouts of insomnia and overall poor sleeping habits.
But the fish oil seems to have evened me out and I am sleeping like a baby. I am now getting consistent REM sleep- 6 to 8 hours of uninterrupted deep sleep- every night.
I think the fish oil has smooted out the rough edges of the Wellbutrin.
Posted by missin on April 8, 2009, at 14:04:23
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - anxiety, posted by LOOPS on March 29, 2006, at 17:40:13
a couple of weeks ago i started taking flaxseed oil as a supplement to my diet, as i am allergic to seafood and thus have very limited intake of omega 3/6/9.
my anxiety which i have had under control for several years now went through the roof. at first i thought i was pregnant, because the only other times i have felt that bad was in early stages of pregnancy, but alas, the test said no. the only change id had in my life was the introduction of two flaxseed oil pills a day, and a womens multivitamin.
i stoppped taking them, and sure enough, the anxiety cleared up. i am going to try again next week as a personal test and see if it increases my anxiety levels again. i certainly hope it isnt the flax oil, as i REALLY do need these things in my diet to be healthy, but all signs are pointing to it.
funny, i thought i must have been the only person in the world to have had this side effect, but apparently im not! good to see.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 9, 2009, at 18:45:11
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - anxiety, posted by missin on April 8, 2009, at 14:04:23
> a couple of weeks ago i started taking flaxseed oil as a supplement to my diet, as i am allergic to seafood and thus have very limited intake of omega 3/6/9.
>
> my anxiety which i have had under control for several years now went through the roof. at first i thought i was pregnant, because the only other times i have felt that bad was in early stages of pregnancy, but alas, the test said no. the only change id had in my life was the introduction of two flaxseed oil pills a day, and a womens multivitamin.
>
> i stoppped taking them, and sure enough, the anxiety cleared up. i am going to try again next week as a personal test and see if it increases my anxiety levels again. i certainly hope it isnt the flax oil, as i REALLY do need these things in my diet to be healthy, but all signs are pointing to it.
>
> funny, i thought i must have been the only person in the world to have had this side effect, but apparently im not! good to see.I agree--it's good to know others have the same problem, that it's a real issue, even if an uncommon one.
Best of luck working it out,
Psychbot
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 11, 2009, at 16:22:36
In reply to Re: Side effects from fish oil? - anxiety, posted by missin on April 8, 2009, at 14:04:23
> a couple of weeks ago i started taking flaxseed oil as a supplement to my diet, as i am allergic to seafood and thus have very limited intake of omega 3/6/9.
I really doubt you'd have any trouble getting omega-6 fats. Any vegetable oil will give you omega-6, and probably far more than is good for you, overall. Omega-9 is easy to get in olive oil. And the omega-3 fatty acid in flax oil (alpha-linolenic acid, 18:3) is no longer accepted as more than a modest precursor to EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid, 20:5). And it is now generally believed that the yield of DHA, (docosahexaenoic acid, 22:6) is pretty much zero.
If you're allergic to fish, then your only valid source for long-chain omega-3s is algae.
> my anxiety which i have had under control for several years now went through the roof. at first i thought i was pregnant, because the only other times i have felt that bad was in early stages of pregnancy, but alas, the test said no. the only change id had in my life was the introduction of two flaxseed oil pills a day, and a womens multivitamin.Just from a logical perspective, if you were taking two supplements that you started at the same time, then you can't be sure what caused the anxiety. Some people are anxious from B-vitamins, for example.
Lar
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