Posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:39:05
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...
>
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
>
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
>
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> JanHi Jan,
Sorry to hear you're not doing too well. Haven't been in the best of shape myself lately but at least I made it through another season of working at tax preparation. Some job is better than none, which is what I'm back to and feeling the effects of, but back to you...
It's a good clue to know you're helped by SAM-e, I should think. I was too but found the cost prohibitive. It also pooped out on me, it seemed though perhaps more would have been better.
As for your abrupt downswing, I have two "speculations". One is that you really really needed what SAM-e was contributing and instead of reaching the saturation point (that Larry has spoken about) you fell way short, so with all the receptors or processes whatever (I can't be scientific!) poised for what they needed, and then NOT getting it, perhaps the imbalance became greater as the body couldn't readjust to first the abrupt intervention and then the taking away of the intervention.
The other speculation is about homocysteine which has been linked to depression. You may recall a previous discussion we all had about methylation. Started here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html
Here, DSCH, says:
"I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe." http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279278.html
There's another thread we were in that you might want to review as well: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415835.html
Hmm...after reading that, I think I am going to be more diligent about taking MSM again. And or TMG.
I've been having problems with motivation with my supplement regimen. Sometimes I just get sick of it all.
I'm wondering too if sometimes "less is more" considering the body regulations that strive for balance. When we intervene in a big way with certain things that are on certain pathways, then the body has to adjust to that, perhaps with a swing of some sort of metabolic pendulum in an opposite direction. So then we do something else to address that and on and on. Perhaps by lower doses of things over longer times we'd achieve greater equilibrium.
I know that I feel better when I take a handful of supplements, but after this winter when I was taking just kind of the basics and feeling no worse than last winter when I was frantic to try to correct things, I've been wondering about the right course. I can't find the right post now, but Larry said something thought provoking in an old post to someone about the brain "chasing the dragon" of a positive response, not just in reaction to drugs, but just in a good feeling. I wonder if that may be another reason to consider "less is more". Perhaps when we artifically and rather abruptly increase dopamine to counteract depression, we are also automatically triggering a desire for more (not in the same was as with cocaine or meth, of course).
I'm intrigued by the fact that the SAMe you took also included MSM but MSM alone previously didn't have a good effect. Larry says that MSM is not a methyl donor: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/377706.html but what does it do then? And does it do something in relation to SAMe that it doesn't do without it? In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
"The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
You may recall a previous thread where DSCH said that it took magnesium for TMG to be "turned on" for him. What I've found taking TMG is that if I take too much (or if I don't actually need it?) that I get extremely irritable but more magnesium counteracts that. Dunno what the connection might be though.
I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
Hang in there.
JL
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...
>
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
>
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
>
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> Jan
poster:JLxx
thread:476058
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050414/msgs/493523.html