Posted by Lou Pilder on August 16, 2014, at 17:40:10
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2014, at 12:01:09
> > > > Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
>
> > > > > Save yourself first. Jewish people convert to Christianity all the time.
> > > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
>
> > Our discussion before was not complete and now some of our previous discussion needs to be resumed by me.
>
> OK, let's resume that discussion.
>
> > The statement in question ... is a statement that is allowed by you to be seen as civil where it is originally posted on the basis that you say that unsanctioned statements are not against your rules
>
> As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
>
> > But it is much more than that. Here is your reply to me
>
> > > IMO that wasn't ... a put-down of Judaism. For one thing, Christian people may also convert to Judaism just as, or even more, frequently.
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
>
> > The tactic of evasion is done by using deceit by making a statement that could be true that is irrelevant and could lead to a false conclusion.
>
> I agree, statements that could be true, yet could lead to false conclusions, can be a problem. The approach I'm trying now is to allow them -- and also to allow others to post that the statements aren't necessarily true and the conclusions could be false.
>
> > Your statement that readers could think that you are using to justify that the statement that could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down is civil and that you will not sanction the statement because of that, uses a statement that is false and irrelevant. That is your statement that some readers could think that you are making the claim that Christian people can convert to Judaism even more frequently. The truth of the matter could be shown to not substantiate that claim by you because Judaism does not seek converts and it is a rare happening for Christians to convert to Judaism according to statistics concerning that which are published, and records from Jewish sects. In fact, the conversions are usually for purposes of marriage and many Jewish branches do not honor conversions. But the main point is that these conversions are small in number and refute your claim
>
> I didn't research it myself. How often in fact do Jewish people convert to Christianity and Christian people convert to Judaism?
>
> > And even if your claim was true, as to how many people convert from either religion to the other, that is irrelevant to the fact that the statement could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down. It would not matter if your claim was true or not. Either way, it does not annul the fact that your rule is to not post what could lead one of another faith to feel put down and to not put them down for having their faith.
>
> I thought it was relevant to the second part of the post, the claim that Jewish people converted to Christianity all the time.
>
> > To say that a Jew has to convert to Christianity to be saved, insults Judaism and is a statement not in accordance with what I have revealed as a Jew to be The Golden Rule.
> > But what is done by you here is to use the tactic of evasion by using the tactic of making a statement that is irrelevant to lead readers to make a conclusion based on that statement.
>
> I wouldn't call addressing the second part of the post evasion. I addressed the first part of the post, too:
>
> > > I agree, it wasn't sensitive to your feelings, but that's different from putting down Judaism. And I usually don't consider telling someone what to do once to be pressure/harassment.
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060624.html
>
> Also, the post didn't say that you, or any Jew, had to convert to Christianity to be saved.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...as a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that...].
I see no revision at all, except that you have written to me here that you *should* revise that.
A subset of readers could think that you are going to revise your policy in order to allow the anti-Semitic statement in question to be seen as supportive or not supportive since you now say that the policy that you should make in your revision is that you may leave an uncivil statement to stand un intervened so that readers could not know if you are considering the statement civil or not by you. Readers still could consider the statement civil by you after you make the revision that you say that you should make. But the revision covers that you give yourself the option to allow anti-Semitism and defamation toward me to stand in the post where it is originally posted. That brings us back to that harm could come to a subset of vulnerable readers here regardless if you make the revision or not. And to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet, that readers could know besides that you post here that you should make the revision or they could not know of the revision unless they see this one post here which some readers may not even visit this board. And if you do post a disclosure to the forum in some way that they could know of the revision, would that not raise the issue as to your intent here and think that you are making your revision to allow Jews to be defamed here? Those readers could have a rational basis to think that on the grounds that the statement in question is admitted by you to be not sensitive to my feelings as a Jew, but looking at the grammatical structure of the statement, [Convert-Lou Pilder...save yourself first.. convert to Christianity...], the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew. That is analogous to saying that being a Jew prohibits Jews from being saved. Or, No non-Christian will enter heaven. Or, Only Christians can be saved. All of those are already said by you to be statements that either put down Jews or lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down. The aspect that it is implied in the statement that unless Jews convert to Christianity they will not be saved, which is pressure, the pressure of the threat of being unsaved unless one converts. That threat, is psychological pressure used historically to dehumanize and stigmatize and belittle Jews on the basis that the statement, in and of itself, defames Judaism as a religion that can not offer salvation to those that give service and worship to the God that the Jews cherish.
I feel put down as a Jew when I read it and as long as you allow it to be seen without your tagline to please be civil, the damage that could arise out of readers seeing the statement as civil by you, could spread the fire of hatred toward the Jews through the winds of the internet into homes all over the world. Those winds can not be stilled even if you do post some type of revision, for the fire of hate started when the post was first posted and revising to allow it, could be thought by a subset of readers to mean that you could allow even more defamation toward the Jews to remain un sanctioned here by you. They could think that because your revision will allow you to do that on the basis that your revision says that you could allow anti-Semitism to stand here.
Let there be no misunderstanding here. Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
Lou Pilder
poster:Lou Pilder
thread:1050116
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069916.html