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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2003, at 13:26:32
In reply to Cutting, looking for answers....Re: SCARS, posted by McPac on May 15, 2003, at 22:00:00
> Can someone here explain WHY you cut? Does it release tension or depression? Thanks.
Posted by katia on May 21, 2003, at 16:41:34
In reply to Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2003, at 13:26:32
> > Can someone here explain WHY you cut? Does it release tension or depression? Thanks.
I can't really explain it myself, other than when i'm really at rock bottom, I do harm myself physically b/c I feel there is nothing left to do? I either hit my head against a wall or stratch my arms, neck, or head with my fingernails. An ex-boyfriend witnessed me try to tear out my own throat. (where do you go from here love? dinner?) I have scars from it. It feels like there is so much energy in me that it needs to go somewhere maybe? and it's some what of a release to physically hurt myself. somehow it feels better than the mental. it doesn't make sense even to me, one who does it. Along the same lines of this energy, it feels good to physically get into a fight with my boyfriend/partner (when i can hang onto one due to this tendency!). katia
Posted by audrey on May 22, 2003, at 10:56:45
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac » Dr. Bob, posted by katia on May 21, 2003, at 16:41:34
> > > Can someone here explain WHY you cut? Does it release tension or depression? Thanks.
>Growing up, my parents used to scream at me all the time. I always had a really difficult time coping with this type of reaction to things. My parents yell at each other even when they aren't angry -- one of my friends said my parents reminded them of George Costanza's parents on Seinfeld. Anyway, there were times when they would just keep screaming and screaming at me, and there was just nothing left to scream about, but they wouldn't let me leave the room. And so I couldn't take it anymore and I would be hyperventilating and my mind would sort of go numb and I would suddenly be curled up in a corner tearing my hair out in clumps and clawing at my throat or the skin on my arms until I was bleeding. It was just a way to escape the hell my parent were causing. The worst part was that my parents would actually laugh at me and tell me I was being "ridiculous." It took a long time to get over all of that stuff. Well, as over it as I can possibly be at this point. I mean, even now, at the age of 28, things will set me off, and I'll find myself pulling little bits of my hair out, or scratching at my skin until it is raw, and I don't even realize I'm doing it. It's not nearly as bad as when I was a child or teenager, but I do regress. It's frightening.
Posted by katia on May 22, 2003, at 13:29:40
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by audrey on May 22, 2003, at 10:56:45
> > > > Can someone here explain WHY you cut? Does it release tension or depression? Thanks.
> >
>
> Growing up, my parents used to scream at me all the time. I always had a really difficult time coping with this type of reaction to things. My parents yell at each other even when they aren't angry -- one of my friends said my parents reminded them of George Costanza's parents on Seinfeld. Anyway, there were times when they would just keep screaming and screaming at me, and there was just nothing left to scream about, but they wouldn't let me leave the room. And so I couldn't take it anymore and I would be hyperventilating and my mind would sort of go numb and I would suddenly be curled up in a corner tearing my hair out in clumps and clawing at my throat or the skin on my arms until I was bleeding. It was just a way to escape the hell my parent were causing. The worst part was that my parents would actually laugh at me and tell me I was being "ridiculous." It took a long time to get over all of that stuff. Well, as over it as I can possibly be at this point. I mean, even now, at the age of 28, things will set me off, and I'll find myself pulling little bits of my hair out, or scratching at my skin until it is raw, and I don't even realize I'm doing it. It's not nearly as bad as when I was a child or teenager, but I do regress. It's frightening.
>
>My god, how awful for you. I'm sorry anyone had to go through that.
Is there a history of mental illness in your family?
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2003, at 14:49:09
In reply to Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2003, at 13:26:32
And sometimes it's because the rage floods you. Rage so intense that you head pounds and you feel like you're going to explode. And your skin cries out to be cut. And then after, you feel calm. Groggy even. The pressure is gone. Is it the cutting? Or the sobering realization that you've got an X on your arm, and will somehow have to explain that. But for whatever reason, there is peace.
Posted by Eggy on May 26, 2003, at 0:55:36
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... Trigger, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2003, at 14:49:09
I cut. I have a BIG problem with it. It's harder in the summer because I like to cut my arms and I can't hide it. Why do I do it? Because all day long I have to act "normal"...like I feel good. My pain gets locked up inside. I cut because it feels good. Because it FEELS! I'm not allowed to feel. I don't know how to. It's an endorphin thing my therapist says. I go all day like a zombie faking smiles and doing the mom thing. It's like a runners high. Except I get more out of it. I get to see that I am real. I see the blood and feel the pain so I know I am a real person.
I hate it though. I wish I could do it without the scars. Without anyone knowing. Without regreting it later. Because I always regret it after I see the scabs.
Posted by katia on May 27, 2003, at 0:55:17
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... McPac, posted by Eggy on May 26, 2003, at 0:55:36
> I cut. I have a BIG problem with it. It's harder in the summer because I like to cut my arms and I can't hide it. Why do I do it? Because all day long I have to act "normal"...like I feel good. My pain gets locked up inside. I cut because it feels good. Because it FEELS! I'm not allowed to feel. I don't know how to. It's an endorphin thing my therapist says. I go all day like a zombie faking smiles and doing the mom thing. It's like a runners high. Except I get more out of it. I get to see that I am real. I see the blood and feel the pain so I know I am a real person.
>
> I hate it though. I wish I could do it without the scars. Without anyone knowing. Without regreting it later. Because I always regret it after I see the scabs.yes, it's soooo powerful when there is lack of expression. the pain is locked up and it's like you are living two separate lives and the more you hide it , the crazier you get! I totally get that! Fortunately, or unfortr. for me I explode and then crash eventually with someone listening. But in between is definitely the self-mutilation.
god, this is such an archaic time we live in regarding mental "illness".
I feel for you.
katia
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 8:24:30
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... McPac » Eggy, posted by katia on May 27, 2003, at 0:55:17
I'm going to have an uncomfortable session today explaining things to my therapist. He's not terribly happy with me. I called him before I did anything, like I'm supposed to. But it's hard to explain how intensely nonverbal the feelings are. I tried to express myself to him, he said something not particularly helpful like "That's not the best way to handle your feelings" which, along with my total inability to express my feelings, caused me to say something to downplay the whole thing, in effect misleading him.
But how do you get someone who hasn't experienced to understand that you did try to express yourself in words. But that words are hard to come by when you're in that mood. And that even if I had been thinking clearly, words are inadequate to express the feelings. It's all so frustrating because no one gets that. No one gets that when I try to get help before I cut, that I'm just incapable of finding the words, of saying them right. Maybe I need some sort of easily remembered code word. A very wise friend suggested "help" and I think I'll suggest that to him today. But I don't even know how to begin to describe what "help" encompasses, even now that I have more access to words.
Posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2003, at 12:41:23
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » katia, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 8:24:30
Good luck, Dinah!
I agree with your friend that some kind of code could help here. So you can say "I feel xyz", and he can say "What you can do is.... Do you still feel xyz?" and you can say "Yes". Well, it would be nice if you could honestly say "No" at that point, but even if my therapist says something brilliant, it doesn't get down to the part that is hurting for an hour or two at least.
The most successful thing that I've done when I want to hurt myself is to get some crayons and draw a picture. The smell of the crayons is wonderful. My pictures tend to say more than words do - or at least if I have to describe the picture I end up with more useful words than if I just tried to talk about it.
(I was going to say: Remember that being painfully honest gives them the best chance of helping you. But then I thought about my last 2 months, and I decided not to say that.)
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 16:15:21
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2003, at 12:41:23
Well, I was painfully honest. And I think he understands pretty much. We did come up with a code word. I'm supposed to write some things down that I usually need to ask for so that I don't have to put together the thoughts at that time. He's going to try to remember to ask questions that I can answer with little more than yes or no when I tell him I'm having trouble finding words. And I'm supposed to remember to ask him if I want an extra session instead of cutting. That's a tough one, because not only is my brain disorganized, but I have a strong fear of asking for what I want but aren't sure I can have. I'm as bad as my son about hearing "no". If he even asks for what he wants, he prefaces it with fifteen minutes of "I know the answer is probably no, and maybe I shouldn't even ask". It's not that I mind not getting what I want, because you don't get it if you don't ask, either. It just hurts to hear "no". But we're going to work on that.
And his biggest suggestion for when I regress to a largely preverbal level is art! He says that SI is a form of self expression for what I can't express with words. I don't know though. I am not the teensiest bit artistic or creative, and the thought of facing a blank page is a horrifying one. Flashback to huge failures in art class. :( Maybe I could just sniff the crayons, and not draw? :D
Posted by katia on May 27, 2003, at 17:18:37
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 16:15:21
> Well, I was painfully honest. And I think he understands pretty much. We did come up with a code word. I'm supposed to write some things down that I usually need to ask for so that I don't have to put together the thoughts at that time. He's going to try to remember to ask questions that I can answer with little more than yes or no when I tell him I'm having trouble finding words. And I'm supposed to remember to ask him if I want an extra session instead of cutting. That's a tough one, because not only is my brain disorganized, but I have a strong fear of asking for what I want but aren't sure I can have. I'm as bad as my son about hearing "no". If he even asks for what he wants, he prefaces it with fifteen minutes of "I know the answer is probably no, and maybe I shouldn't even ask". It's not that I mind not getting what I want, because you don't get it if you don't ask, either. It just hurts to hear "no". But we're going to work on that.
>
> And his biggest suggestion for when I regress to a largely preverbal level is art! He says that SI is a form of self expression for what I can't express with words. I don't know though. I am not the teensiest bit artistic or creative, and the thought of facing a blank page is a horrifying one. Flashback to huge failures in art class. :( Maybe I could just sniff the crayons, and not draw? :DMy therapist recommended having some clay on hand; so that when that wild energy hits, just start molding. I've still yet to buy the clay, but it'd probably work better for me than setting up my easel, getting the paints out, setting up the palette. nope that's too much planning in that state. but I can see just molding the heck out of some clay in that state. maybe a healthy alt. to hurting myself. and if it's there already on hand, it might help. When I was staying with a friend last year in the midst of my depression, she had an art studio just off of the bedroom and since everything was already set up, it did really help to just go in and paint. I always have expressed myself before through the years with writing, but that no longer is adequate for me. the painting really helped transform some of that energy.
Posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2003, at 17:22:23
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 16:15:21
I know what you mean about no. Makes life hard, though when you can't ask for what you really need.
I draw like a 2nd grader. I wouldn't put my pictures on the wall, but they help me express myself. I think that I made her promise not to laugh. And she didn't laugh. When I started drawing I did a pile of scribbles (30?) and I made her look at them (ha ha!). Over time I could draw things that made more sense. Stick figures are fine - you aren't looking for form, you are looking for content. One thing they do in Art Therapy is have the patient draw a loose scribble (hand goes around maybe 5 times). Then you make something out of the scribble. This helps because it can give you ideas, and also because it can't look "good" if it comes from a scribble. I've gotten a couple of books on Art Therapy out of the University Library. They help me see that some patients do "nice" art, but lots do art like I do. You're going for expression - not perfection.
Try it.
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 18:08:08
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2003, at 17:22:23
Well, it does sound helpful. I'll try to work with my art-phobia. I'll let you know if I manage to overcome it.
Posted by katia on May 27, 2003, at 18:16:06
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers....Katia and » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 18:08:08
> Well, it does sound helpful. I'll try to work with my art-phobia. I'll let you know if I manage to overcome it.
A great book to buy: "Free Play" by Stephen Nachmanovitch.
it gives you a way to overcome all those judgments and critics of the "right" or "wrong" way to do art. It's starts you at ground zero and builds you up again from a non-judging stand point. just get it! it's worth it.
katia
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2003, at 20:39:09
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers....Katia and » Dinah, posted by katia on May 27, 2003, at 18:16:06
> A great book to buy: "Free Play" by Stephen Nachmanovitch.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Eggy on May 27, 2003, at 21:43:48
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » Dinah, posted by katia on May 27, 2003, at 17:18:37
I always cut while bathing. One thing that sometimes works is soap. I have a drawer full of soap and if I feel the need to cut I'll get out a bar of soap and tweezers and give that bar of soap a nice new shape. Kinda like soap oragami. By the time im done there is usually a huge hole right through that bar of soap. To some I guess you could call it a soap fetish because I go through about 7 bars of soap a week. But I am a very clean person.
Posted by Snoozy on May 27, 2003, at 21:59:40
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2003, at 16:15:21
OK, this is probably going to sound incredibly dopey, but here goes.....
Like you, I am totally not inclined to drawing. But my therapist suggested, and I actually have done this, coloring, for times when I'm in a self-injury mood. You don't have to do children's coloring books, there are some that are more adult-oriented. I have a whole bunch of flower ones. You can even go outside the lines if you want to :)
I use colored pencils. Now, how's that for sharing ;)
Posted by katia on May 28, 2003, at 1:32:05
In reply to Re: double double quotes » katia, posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2003, at 20:39:09
> > A great book to buy: "Free Play" by Stephen Nachmanovitch.
>
> I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
>
> The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
sure, I don't mind using it, but if I want to refer a book again in the future, what do you want me to do? I don't really understand how "to use" it.
katia
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 28, 2003, at 21:07:26
In reply to Re: double double quotes » Dr. Bob, posted by katia on May 28, 2003, at 1:32:05
> > I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
>
> sure, I don't mind using it, but if I want to refer a book again in the future, what do you want me to do? I don't really understand how "to use" it.I'm happy to explain, but I'd rather not repeat myself, did you look at the above section of the FAQ?
Bob
Posted by Devilot on May 28, 2003, at 21:21:35
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by audrey on May 22, 2003, at 10:56:45
Cutting...I've done it. Very recently in fact I was hospitalized for a few days because I cut my legs and wrist a total of about 23 times. I didn't want to die, I just wanted to feel something other than the numbness that my life had come to be. Five years ago, I found out that I was into being beaten sort of. It turned into S&M, and though I didn't know why, I knew I loved it. I began to explore the reasoning behind this pleasure in pain that I never knew or sought out before. I came across a possible answer in my childhood. I was raised by a single mom that didn't believe in hitting her children, and our punishments were very mild. Not having a male role model, or anyone to keep me in line besides myself, I put a certain amount of pressure on myself to do the right thing for my hard working mom. This pressure, eventually, would give way to me NEEDING some other form of discipline. I couldn't keep myself together and 'normal' anymore by myself. A girlfriend at the time asked me if she could whip me a little. I thought, sure, I'm open minded, I'll try it once. I fell in love. Anyway, after we broke up, I still craved this type of 'attention' and not having the luck of getting it with other girlfriends, I focused on doing it to myself in other ways. Cutting was easiest. It became like masturbation for me. I was hiding it. Doing it in the shower. Doing it to feel release from life. I stopped after a bad cut. Real deep on my arm. 7 staples deep. Then about a month ago, after my 28th birthday, I did it again and ended up in the hospital.
The point is, although you're not alone in hurting yourself, you're also not alone in not having an answer as to why we do it.
Wish I knew so I could make all of us better.
Posted by judy1 on May 29, 2003, at 13:52:44
In reply to Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by Dr. Bob on May 21, 2003, at 13:26:32
May I suggest "Cutting" by Steven Levenkron? SI is a coping skill, personally I use it as a way to stop dissociating and to feel alive again. The book explains the many reasons why people do it (2 million people SI!) hope it helps-judy
Posted by judy1 on May 29, 2003, at 13:55:17
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by judy1 on May 29, 2003, at 13:52:44
I noticed the link didn't go to the actual book, but if you type in self injury in the search feature, 'Cutting' is the first one mentioned. take care.
Posted by noa on May 29, 2003, at 17:02:55
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac, posted by judy1 on May 29, 2003, at 13:52:44
HEre, let's see if this works:
"Cutting"by S. Levenkron
Posted by judy1 on May 30, 2003, at 12:11:21
In reply to Re: Cutting, looking for answers.... « McPac » judy1, posted by noa on May 29, 2003, at 17:02:55
Posted by noa on May 30, 2003, at 19:35:04
In reply to How did you do that? Thanks! (nm) » noa, posted by judy1 on May 30, 2003, at 12:11:21
I learned by making the same error--several times!!
When you submit your post, BEFORE you confirm it, check the Amazon links.
I did so in this case, and there were many books with the work 'cutting' but none of them were Levenkron's.
So I opened another window of Internet explorer. Went to amazon.com. Looked up Levenkron's book. Highlighted and copied the title and author's name.
Then, I came back to my post, and pasted it into the post.
Then, when I checked the post before confirming it, I saw that the link was correct.
I don't know why it didn't work in the first place since the author's name was there, but oh, well. The second method works as a back up.
This is the end of the thread.
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