![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
I apologize if I've become rather self-absorbed on this board, because at this time I've more questions than I do answers, and more mental chaos than free time--but I would appreciate any advice given/
Today I drove a total of 180 mi (roundtrip) to see my psychoanalyst. I'd called her a few days ago from the psychiatric ward of a hospital and explained my situation to her, and all she'd said was, "It sounds like we have a lot of issues to discuss at our next appointment." It really felt like a business call to me.So today I walk into her office with 96 oz beer in my stomach--not drunk, but I nearly always go see her that way. She told me she was angry with me, angry that I'd tried to kill myself without calling her, angry that I'd shown up to the appointment "under the influence"--and then, 35 minutes into the session, reminded me that my June payment was due on the 15th of this month (2 days late).
After spending nearly a week on a pysch ward, I felt she should have switched, just for once, from her scientific Psychoanalyst persona into a Coddler, but instead she's tellng me that she's angry with me, that I seem to "instill anger in people," and that I owe her hundreds of dollars?
I called her a bitch and walked out.
What should I do? This woman has treated me for a total of 6 or 7 months and I feel completely betrayed. I don't have insurance, so paying over $100 per session is a big deal to me. I can't figure out who's in the wrong--perhaps we both are? She insinuated that I should have called her when I was feeling suicidal, but when you are *that* suicidal you simply don't give a shit, and I knew I'd get her answering machine and it'd take her at least a day to get back to me so what difference did it make?
I owe her for 3 appointments. Should I even pay her? I feel that she's harmed me more than helped me.
thanks,
sar
Posted by kazoo on July 18, 2001, at 0:55:53
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
> I called her a bitch and walked out.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apologize to her for saying and doing this. She didn't deserve to be treated this poorly. (I'M-NO-ANGEL DEPARTMENT: I do the same thing with people, so I understand your angst; however, I always end up apologizing.)> I owe her for 3 appointments. Should I even pay her?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You answered your own question with "I feel that she's harmed me more than helped me" ... that being the case, then service wasn't provided (but only from your point of view); hence, no need for compensation. But from her point of view, service *was* provided and, thus, will hold you to your end of the deal; however, if she's aware of your financial status, then she won't bother you.She was angry with your suicide attempt/ideation because it points to her as a FAILURE in her discipline. A professional does not like, or want, to fail. They're not suppose to, but when they do, they feel it just as badly as all other survivors of a suicide. This is not the kind of "feeling" one wants, or needs, so understand why she reacted that way.
Kazoo
Posted by Anna Laura on July 18, 2001, at 4:03:30
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
> I apologize if I've become rather self-absorbed on this board, because at this time I've more questions than I do answers, and more mental chaos than free time--but I would appreciate any advice given/
>
>
> Today I drove a total of 180 mi (roundtrip) to see my psychoanalyst. I'd called her a few days ago from the psychiatric ward of a hospital and explained my situation to her, and all she'd said was, "It sounds like we have a lot of issues to discuss at our next appointment." It really felt like a business call to me.
>
> So today I walk into her office with 96 oz beer in my stomach--not drunk, but I nearly always go see her that way. She told me she was angry with me, angry that I'd tried to kill myself without calling her, angry that I'd shown up to the appointment "under the influence"--and then, 35 minutes into the session, reminded me that my June payment was due on the 15th of this month (2 days late).
>
> After spending nearly a week on a pysch ward, I felt she should have switched, just for once, from her scientific Psychoanalyst persona into a Coddler, but instead she's tellng me that she's angry with me, that I seem to "instill anger in people," and that I owe her hundreds of dollars?
>
> I called her a bitch and walked out.
>
> What should I do? This woman has treated me for a total of 6 or 7 months and I feel completely betrayed. I don't have insurance, so paying over $100 per session is a big deal to me. I can't figure out who's in the wrong--perhaps we both are? She insinuated that I should have called her when I was feeling suicidal, but when you are *that* suicidal you simply don't give a shit, and I knew I'd get her answering machine and it'd take her at least a day to get back to me so what difference did it make?
>
> I owe her for 3 appointments. Should I even pay her? I feel that she's harmed me more than helped me.
>
> thanks,
> sarI think you're right Sar: she is a bitch. Dump her, and don't pay her bills: she doesn't deserve it. If you think you owe her something t then pay your bills but walk away: you don't need that shit, you need humanity, you need caring, warm people.
A hug
Anna Laura
Posted by Roo on July 18, 2001, at 8:32:49
In reply to Re: pysch troubles, posted by Anna Laura on July 18, 2001, at 4:03:30
Sar--
What about writing her a letter and telling her
how you feel? I think she needs to know how you
feel.
Posted by Kingfish on July 18, 2001, at 8:51:58
In reply to Re: pysch troubles, posted by Roo on July 18, 2001, at 8:32:49
> Sar--
I would get out of the situation completely. I personally would compensate if you can, simply because then I would feel completely clean of it, but if it's too difficult financially don't, and walk away without any guilt.
Get another doctor immediately. And be very upfront about why you left your last one. Why a psychoanalyst? Would a psychotherapist be better? (I don't know - I've never seen anyone but a psychiatrist successfully, so I'm just asking).
But it sounds to me like you're on the brink still of self-destruction and you need someone who can be helpful. Your concerns are valid, which is why I would go on a search now and bring the concerns up right away with someone new.
Is there anyway you can get insurance? States offer insurance coverage. New York has coverage for about $500/month for couples, which seems outrageous except that my medications are @$400/month, and individual coverage would obviously be cheaper, so that could be something to check into.
Good luck.
- K.
P.S. I agree with Kazoo's response as well.
Posted by mist on July 18, 2001, at 12:36:29
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
Sar,
There is something wrong with that woman. You don't need to apologize to her. She should apologize to you. You aren't in therapy for her benefit but for yours. She's upset because she would look bad professionally if one of her clients killed themselves. She sounds narcissistic. Plus, making a blanket statement like "you seem to instill anger in people" is abusive.
-mist
> I apologize if I've become rather self-absorbed on this board, because at this time I've more questions than I do answers, and more mental chaos than free time--but I would appreciate any advice given/
>
>
> Today I drove a total of 180 mi (roundtrip) to see my psychoanalyst. I'd called her a few days ago from the psychiatric ward of a hospital and explained my situation to her, and all she'd said was, "It sounds like we have a lot of issues to discuss at our next appointment." It really felt like a business call to me.
>
> So today I walk into her office with 96 oz beer in my stomach--not drunk, but I nearly always go see her that way. She told me she was angry with me, angry that I'd tried to kill myself without calling her, angry that I'd shown up to the appointment "under the influence"--and then, 35 minutes into the session, reminded me that my June payment was due on the 15th of this month (2 days late).
>
> After spending nearly a week on a pysch ward, I felt she should have switched, just for once, from her scientific Psychoanalyst persona into a Coddler, but instead she's tellng me that she's angry with me, that I seem to "instill anger in people," and that I owe her hundreds of dollars?
>
> I called her a bitch and walked out.
>
> What should I do? This woman has treated me for a total of 6 or 7 months and I feel completely betrayed. I don't have insurance, so paying over $100 per session is a big deal to me. I can't figure out who's in the wrong--perhaps we both are? She insinuated that I should have called her when I was feeling suicidal, but when you are *that* suicidal you simply don't give a shit, and I knew I'd get her answering machine and it'd take her at least a day to get back to me so what difference did it make?
>
> I owe her for 3 appointments. Should I even pay her? I feel that she's harmed me more than helped me.
>
> thanks,
> sar
Posted by Greg on July 18, 2001, at 12:46:36
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
sar,
Feeling suicidal is not a very rational time in a person's mind and I know from my own experience that when I feel that way I simply don't know who I'm going to turn to, if I turn to anyone. I can understand your psych being disapointed that you didn't call her, but the anger over it is her problem. Anger is a part of everyday life, it's how we express it that matters. I think it was wrong for her to say that her anger was your fault.
As far as what you owe, if you don't feel that you've rec'd the treatment you expected, tell her. Perhaps you can get a reduced fee, or maybe have the fee dropped altogether. But either way, it sounds like time to find another doctor. You're definitely not comfortable with this one, especially if you feel like you have to drink before seeing her. Being at ease with your doc is of paramount importance.
Last, apologize for calling her a bitch. If you are anything like me you'll end up feeling guilty about it at sometime even if you don't feel that way now. And the last thing we need is unnecessary guilt...
I hope you feel better soon,
Greg
Posted by AKC on July 18, 2001, at 13:27:13
In reply to Re: pysch troubles, posted by Greg on July 18, 2001, at 12:46:36
sar,
Here is my two cents, for what it is worth --
First, I am kinda with Greg - no matter how awful the woman was to you, calling her names was kinda yucky - you will feel better for your own behavior if you apologize - sort of that AA twelve step philosophy of keeping your side of the street clean regardless of what the other person does. So even if she remains angry and unhelpful, you will feel better for doing what you know is right.
And I totally agree with everyone that it is time to move on. Her reaction to your suicide attempt is totally unprofessional - be it narcisstic, angry, fearful, whatever - yes, she is human and can have feelings, but dang, she is a professional, and her reaction is uncalled for. You are very vulnerable right now and need a lot of support - her reaction is not supportive - in fact, it is totally the opposite. Demanding of money, accusatory for not calling, so forth and so forth. I do hope you end the relationship.
However, I must insist (I have no right, but I am going to step over that line) that you go right out and begin to find a new therapist. You deserve a therapist who is supportive and who can help lead you on a path of recovery. I sometimes believe I am one of the lucky ones (I know I tend to talk about myself in all of my posts, but I know myself better than anyone - its the only experience, strength and hope I know how to share - another AA thing). I have found a couple of therapist (individual and group) and a pdoc, who are talented and caring. They root for me daily. They have gone out of their way. I have intruded in their lives so many times - sometimes I believe somewhat inappropriately. Every person deserves this - including you sar. And if you don't have this, you just got to keep looking.
I would get so mad in AA when I would hear someone say that you got to keep taking it one day at a time, one moment at a time until the miracle occurred. The miracle might be occurring for me right now - I'm scared to say so. But that damn little pill called topamax may have restored me to sanity. It's been three years of pure hell, with many years of purgatory before it. But what got me here? A damn good therapist and pdoc - find one! They exist. And this person you have been seeing. She ain't one!
Hope this helps.
Your resident hounddog.
Posted by judy1 on July 18, 2001, at 13:33:42
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
Obviously you're in rough shape right now and need to be seeing a therapist. I think you got some great advice already- send her a note of apology and explain your financial situation. As a person who has made multiple suicide attempts, my psychiatrist(s) were FURIOUS with me. As a survivor of my father's suicide, I completely understand how they felt. But it does sound like you need a warm and caring therapist right now and perhaps you can put that in your letter also. I truly hope you begin to feel better soon- judy
Posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 23:37:12
In reply to Re: pysch troubles » sar, posted by judy1 on July 18, 2001, at 13:33:42
Dear Yall,
thanks for the quickly wise responses. i appreciated all of it! I am not going to see this woman again--this saddens me, because she had seen me in all sorts of states and at my most extreme, but her mention of a bill 35 minutes into an hour-long session cuts into my heart. How could I pay her bill when I was locked up in the hospital? I wrote an Against Medical Advice Letter, which they rejected. There was no way to pay on the given day.
buzzed, it was easy for me to mutter "bitch" and stalk out. i do not regret it, i think she ought to know that she hurt me. i would not have said that 100% sober, but...
well, i'm going to write a letter apologizing for calling her a bitch and requesting that she not bill me for our last 3 seessions because i found them neither psychoanalytical nor therapeutic.
i agree with not being insulting. i'm not usually like that...but with some alkie in me belly...? ah, i'll call a bitch a bitch freely.
IF she felt like a failure, I feel she should have called me back at the hospital, not brought up financial matters in the middle of our session. She has spiky hair and wears expensive clothes and has dark circles under her eyes. At this moment among many, she disgusts me.
i'll keep my side of the street clean because it's Right. at this point i am so utterly baffled by her lack o concern that i don't know what else to say. i will write her a letter tonight--she deserves an explanation (but don't i?) and I will send it to her.
i'm disappointed. i don't know what my problem is--i don't want a silly coddling therapist, i really respected the scientific value of psychoanalysis, but this woman--well, i don't understand why i made her so angry when she could have done so much more.
is this just miscommunictaion?
sar
Posted by Wendy B. on July 19, 2001, at 0:49:41
In reply to Re: pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 23:37:12
> Dear Yall,
>
> thanks for the quickly wise responses. i appreciated all of it! I am not going to see this woman again--this saddens me, because she had seen me in all sorts of states and at my most extreme, but her mention of a bill 35 minutes into an hour-long session cuts into my heart. How could I pay her bill when I was locked up in the hospital? I wrote an Against Medical Advice Letter, which they rejected. There was no way to pay on the given day.
>
> buzzed, it was easy for me to mutter "bitch" and stalk out. i do not regret it, i think she ought to know that she hurt me. i would not have said that 100% sober, but...
>
> well, i'm going to write a letter apologizing for calling her a bitch and requesting that she not bill me for our last 3 seessions because i found them neither psychoanalytical nor therapeutic.
>
> i agree with not being insulting. i'm not usually like that...but with some alkie in me belly...? ah, i'll call a bitch a bitch freely.
>
> IF she felt like a failure, I feel she should have called me back at the hospital, not brought up financial matters in the middle of our session. She has spiky hair and wears expensive clothes and has dark circles under her eyes. At this moment among many, she disgusts me.
>
> i'll keep my side of the street clean because it's Right. at this point i am so utterly baffled by her lack o concern that i don't know what else to say. i will write her a letter tonight--she deserves an explanation (but don't i?) and I will send it to her.
>
> i'm disappointed. i don't know what my problem is--i don't want a silly coddling therapist, i really respected the scientific value of psychoanalysis, but this woman--well, i don't understand why i made her so angry when she could have done so much more.
>
> is this just miscommunictaion?
>
> sar
Sar:This is called 'Someone in authority letting you down.' Even though it happens all the time, it still stings and hurts. In your state, the onus is on her, SHE has to be the one to communicate well. And yes, you could do with a little coddling right now, scientific psychoanalysis, with its cold exterior, is just an excuse for a lack of empathy and givingness on her part. She should be ashamed of herself... The others' advice on finding a new therapist is important. Social workers and psychologists are fine, you don't need an MD to help people with their psych-problems...
I've been reading your recent posts, and found the one called "Headache" one of the most poignant and sad series of posts I have ever read on this board. I am so, so sorry you got to that bad place, but so glad your parents found you...
And I seriously can't believe what this shrink has done and said. She could have sent you right back to the hospital with her comments about money (when she obviously KNOWS it's a major issue and a hassle for you), and with her getting mad at you for not calling her when you were suicidal... Freakin' jesus! You know the answering machine is on, and you won't get her... what could be more depressing than that? Just what you needed before you proceeded to try to do yourself in... I'm so glad you're still around, the world needs you, I'm positive of that.
Anyway, your anger with her is a good sign, and yes, it sounds very much like they got the bipolar diagnosis right, impulsivity and hypersexuality are classic symptoms. How is the depakote working for you?
I would have called her a bitch, too. Call a spade a spade, as they say. But I suffer from a lack of impulse control, too, so don't listen to me...
Please write back and tell us what happens.
All my best and a large (((hug))...Wendy
Posted by sar on July 19, 2001, at 14:11:08
In reply to Re: pysch troubles » sar, posted by Wendy B. on July 19, 2001, at 0:49:41
Dear Wendy,
"This is called 'Someone in authority letting you down.'" Yes, you're right.
I hope she is ashamed of herself too, but I think she hopes the same of me! I'd like to know what she's thinking right now. I mailed a very, um, *controlled* letter to her this morning, apologizing for "inappropriately" calling her a bitch. (I apologized for being "inappropriate" but did not say that I was sorry. Let her read between the lines if she wants to.)
I wrote that if it wasn't clear last week, this letter was confirmation that we would no longer be working together, and I wished her the best of luck in her research and attempts to help people.
My favorite psych was actually a few years ago, just a plain old psychologist who did CBT with me. She was transferred to Washington after a year and a half, and I was very disappointed. I haven't been able to find one as satisfactory as her since, and that was about 3 years ago. My former insurance company referred me to this most recent doctor who just *happened* to be a psychoanalyst, and I ended up (for awhile!) really digging this woman and her method. I'm pretty rational when I'm not being completely irrational, so I appreciated her expertise and education and her lack of *agenda*--every other psych I run into seems so eager for me to join AA, blame my depression on my moderate drug experimentation. This woman let me talk, was excellent at helping me do dream interpretation, and constantly tested me. She was brilliant...just not warmly human enough, it turns out. I think she'd be a great researcher, maybe she just shouldn't be parading her services as "therapy"...
The docs say I have to get a pregnancy test from a professional before they'll start me on the depakote, so it'll be another week or 2...I've been on klonopin for about a month now and it's really chilled me out, it's easier to laugh and I feel strong and extroverted (usually I feel very weak and introverted)...I'm feeling better.
I like calling a spade a spade too! Feels more honest. Impulse control, shrimpulse control... :)
They say my drinking days will be over with the depakote, because the drug by itself already kind of does a number on the liver.thanks, Wendy, and hugs to you too.
sar
Posted by Jena Lyn on July 19, 2001, at 22:25:06
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
Sar,
I can relate to that, the therapist I saw when I first went away to school did me so much harm I had to go to therapy to get over what she did to me. She convinced me that I should never trust people and that I can only rely on myself in this world...that was her advice on my trust issues ... there was a lot of other stuff, I just want you to know that I understand what its like to be hurt by someone you think is there to help you. My advice...try to be strong through it, I wouldn't pay her, but Im kinda like that, skrew me over and I'll skrew you worse. So...good luck, don't waste your energy worrying about that bitch, you have your own issues and dont' need her bringing you down. Good luck babe!
Jena> I apologize if I've become rather self-absorbed on this board, because at this time I've more questions than I do answers, and more mental chaos than free time--but I would appreciate any advice given/
>
>
> Today I drove a total of 180 mi (roundtrip) to see my psychoanalyst. I'd called her a few days ago from the psychiatric ward of a hospital and explained my situation to her, and all she'd said was, "It sounds like we have a lot of issues to discuss at our next appointment." It really felt like a business call to me.
>
> So today I walk into her office with 96 oz beer in my stomach--not drunk, but I nearly always go see her that way. She told me she was angry with me, angry that I'd tried to kill myself without calling her, angry that I'd shown up to the appointment "under the influence"--and then, 35 minutes into the session, reminded me that my June payment was due on the 15th of this month (2 days late).
>
> After spending nearly a week on a pysch ward, I felt she should have switched, just for once, from her scientific Psychoanalyst persona into a Coddler, but instead she's tellng me that she's angry with me, that I seem to "instill anger in people," and that I owe her hundreds of dollars?
>
> I called her a bitch and walked out.
>
> What should I do? This woman has treated me for a total of 6 or 7 months and I feel completely betrayed. I don't have insurance, so paying over $100 per session is a big deal to me. I can't figure out who's in the wrong--perhaps we both are? She insinuated that I should have called her when I was feeling suicidal, but when you are *that* suicidal you simply don't give a shit, and I knew I'd get her answering machine and it'd take her at least a day to get back to me so what difference did it make?
>
> I owe her for 3 appointments. Should I even pay her? I feel that she's harmed me more than helped me.
>
> thanks,
> sar
Posted by sar on July 21, 2001, at 11:06:20
In reply to Re: pysch troubles, posted by Jena Lyn on July 19, 2001, at 22:25:06
Jena Lyn,
you sound like a woman after my own heart. your message made me giggle and laugh.
That's awful what your therapist told you about trust issues, though, I thought that was *contrary* to what they're supposed to tell you in therapy. Was your new therapist of much help?
sar
Posted by kiddo on July 31, 2001, at 3:06:26
In reply to pysch troubles, posted by sar on July 18, 2001, at 0:12:31
Hi-
I know this is kinda late in the game, however, I'll throw in my two cents worth for the fun of it.
If she were a professional:
1. She would have kept her countertransference in check, and responded appropriately.
2. Allowed herself to be more approachable/available, and maybe you would have felt comfortable enough to call her in your crisis. I've experienced it both ways.
3. I would definitely let her know that the so-called therapy session was supposed to be about you and your feelings and not hers.
4. I'd contact the appropriate authority and file a complaint, maybe she'd agree to 'write off' those sessions after all :-)
5. Tell your next therapist up front about your past issues with this bitch (nope, don't drink, but I call it as I see it) your financial situation, and the effects it has/had on you. See if you can work out something up front about it.
Ask about emergency situations, how 'reachable' they are, yaday, yada, yada... I could go on.
Good luck with your next one, because we may be patients, but some of them should be!
Kiddo
> I apologize if I've become rather self-absorbed on this board, because at this time I've more questions than I do answers, and more mental chaos than free time--but I would appreciate any advice given/
>
>
> Today I drove a total of 180 mi (roundtrip) to see my psychoanalyst. I'd called her a few days ago from the psychiatric ward of a hospital and explained my situation to her, and all she'd said was, "It sounds like we have a lot of issues to discuss at our next appointment." It really felt like a business call to me.
>
> So today I walk into her office with 96 oz beer in my stomach--not drunk, but I nearly always go see her that way. She told me she was angry with me, angry that I'd tried to kill myself without calling her, angry that I'd shown up to the appointment "under the influence"--and then, 35 minutes into the session, reminded me that my June payment was due on the 15th of this month (2 days late).
>
> After spending nearly a week on a pysch ward, I felt she should have switched, just for once, from her scientific Psychoanalyst persona into a Coddler, but instead she's tellng me that she's angry with me, that I seem to "instill anger in people," and that I owe her hundreds of dollars?
>
> I called her a bitch and walked out.
>
> What should I do? This woman has treated me for a total of 6 or 7 months and I feel completely betrayed. I don't have insurance, so paying over $100 per session is a big deal to me. I can't figure out who's in the wrong--perhaps we both are? She insinuated that I should have called her when I was feeling suicidal, but when you are *that* suicidal you simply don't give a shit, and I knew I'd get her answering machine and it'd take her at least a day to get back to me so what difference did it make?
>
> I owe her for 3 appointments. Should I even pay her? I feel that she's harmed me more than helped me.
>
> thanks,
> sar
Posted by 7Towers on May 26, 2010, at 21:26:15
In reply to Re: pysch troubles » sar, posted by kazoo on July 18, 2001, at 0:55:53
"She was angry with your suicide attempt/ideation because it points to her as a FAILURE in her discipline. A professional does not like, or want, to fail. They're not suppose to, but when they do, they feel it just as badly as all other survivors of a suicide. This is not the kind of "feeling" one wants, or needs, so understand why she reacted that way."
It is percisely this response which came from not a healthy therapist but an emotionally crippled one. Also its the belief that a Person is entitled to hold another accountable for his/her feelings of failure at their job is downright insane and the very sickness for which we have all become fragmented and deeply wounded. From a professional whoose job is supportative guidance so the patient can heal the fragments bringing about wholeness instead delivers more of same toxic slop is truly sad. They of all people should know better than most that this is very harmful.
Proper boundries , and rules that provide structure are a must providing for consistancy and clarity where eventually safety is felt through experience. These should and can be kept integral and should the therapist take a clients behaivor personally it should be delt with privately by therapist and not allowed to enter into the client treatment which would be toxic.
We are accountable for our own actions. Anothers behaivor we have no control over nor are we responsible for anyones elses feelings. We can be an influence and only when we have earned thier respect and trust in that they experience no manipulation , and more often experience a genuine desire to help bring about our healing "Seeing us" and we are not an extension of them ..
This extension madness has gone on long enough and the whole world is growing more insane.
The Mind is a wonderful slave and makes an abysmal Master.
Self introspection plays a crucial role , watch your mind because only you can through the observer which we all have, you will find there the highest validation dispelling insanities lies with truth that none can put asunder . In Love Me/Us/and WE find exquisite freedom to be.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.