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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2014, at 20:56:46
In reply to psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 1, 2014, at 13:31:34
> But seriously, what do YOU think is the "psychology" behind long term, financial dependency on government entitlement programs? Just plain laziness? It creates less drive in people? It decreases the incentive to go out and find a job and to work for a living? What?
Good question. What do you think is the psychology behind opposition to government support?
Bob
Posted by sleepygirl2 on March 6, 2014, at 18:14:53
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2014, at 20:56:46
Denial of dependency in any form, with associated projection in the hated "other".
Posted by SLS on March 6, 2014, at 20:09:45
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » Dr. Bob, posted by sleepygirl2 on March 6, 2014, at 18:14:53
Hi Sleepy.
> Denial of dependency in any form, with associated projection in the hated "other".
I can't figure this one out. Is there any chance you could explain it?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2014, at 20:33:28
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » sleepygirl2, posted by SLS on March 6, 2014, at 20:09:45
there are different views on what the role of government should be.
some people think that the role of government is something like caretaker of its citizens. rather like parents are caretakers of their children. they have positive duties to provide for, care, nurture, and develop their citizens.
one might think that governments have duties to provide things like accessible museums and libraries. cheap / free quality education programs (like documentaries, relatively unbiased news, community papers etc). to provide roads so people can travel about and ship their goods and services. parks for recreation. free / subsidised events like fireworks at new years. things like the statue of liberty. perhaps schools for little kids. health for little kids? fire department? police? national defence? army? marines? nasa? bridges? universities so people can research and develop fairer social policies? natural disaster relief? foreign aid? embassies? legal aid for the purposes of innocent until proven guilty?
or perhaps the government doesn't owe its citizens a damn. it shouldn't take taxes from them... it shouldn't have the resources to do things like build roads for people to drive their environment wrecking suv's on...
other people think that the role of government is simply to prevent individuals undermining the social contract. so... to lock up / prevent the reoffending of murderers and thieves and rapists and the like. aside from that to each their own. if i want to be high on drugs all day its my own natural born right -- but it ain't the governments job to give me hand-outs of whatever if i choose to be a loafer.
why would someone choose a life of government hand-outs? it isn't like the government provides such a great quality of life. i mean... figure out the hourly wage for whatever government hand-outs the government does provide... it is worse than working? here it is considerably less than minimum wage. i mean... i'd probably double my weekly income if i worked full time at macdonalds... and... i wouldn't have a bunch of people judging me for being a loafer if i worked full time at macdonalds. and... i'd have the internal satisfaction of knowing i earned my money instead of... being given enough to live merely because in this country we believe people have a right to life and rights entail duties (so, for example, if i have the right, as a law abiding citizen - which i am - to not be shot then the best way for the government to ensure that is to have laws preventing people from carrying guns about their person).
but differences in history...
if i lived in a country where the biggest threat to my lifestyle was the government taking things away from me... i'd want fences and guns and stuff to keep them out. because the government people have lots of guns. in some places at least...
and when the government spends money on things like invading foreign lands rather than providing free health care for under 5's at least... well... i suppose i think i'd do a better job of distributing a portion of my income to public works / charity than the government could do so i'd protest their taking such funds from me...
but really... i hope that the government employs people to crunch the numbers so taht... the budget results in a fairer distribution of tax resources to different things... one that is better for the citizens... than how things would be if every individual allocated however much they wanted wherever they wanted according to their whim...
it is a hard one.
i do think that people who rail against people 'bludging off the government' really haven't tried living with the amount of resources that those people have... i think if you did you'd be more tempted to empathise with their plight (is there hope for a better future? what is there to look forward to?) than to judge them. i kinda think... MORE help is needed. it is a deep pit to dig yourself out...
Posted by SLS on March 7, 2014, at 21:26:08
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2014, at 20:33:28
What about instead of a parent/child relationship, we have a brother/sister relationship. We are all in this thing together.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2014, at 22:43:26
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on March 7, 2014, at 21:26:08
you mean maybe the government is big brother?
Posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2014, at 23:08:22
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » Dr. Bob, posted by sleepygirl2 on March 6, 2014, at 18:14:53
> Denial of dependency in any form, with associated projection in the hated "other".
this reminded me of peter singer's claim that there isn't any such thing as pre-tax income. he makes it in response to those who claim that tax is theft.
he points out that however it is that you earn your money is dependent on the government's provision of certain services like roads and police and so on. so... the idea of pre-tax income is a myth - such government services must be paid for.
i took the claim to be that those who protest loudly about dole bludgers or government bludgers or whatever... typically have an over-inflated view of their own independence. they don't realize the many ways in which they, too, are also dependent on the government. for clean drinking water and sewerage treatment and for police and...
instead of hating the fact that they are dependent they hate those who they feel are more dependent... those who get more government assistance...
i'm not entirely sure i understand..
what i really don't understand... is why the middle people turn on the lower people instead of turning on the upper people. i mean... why get upset about the ones living on government assistance (who have next to nothing, lets face it). why not get upset about the paris hilton's of the world? those rolling in money... they're fairly dependent on the government leaving that situation be... leaving them to their wealth... why not get upset about that?
marx has stuff to say... but i haven't actually read any of it.
Posted by SLS on March 8, 2014, at 1:24:33
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by alexandra_k on March 7, 2014, at 22:43:26
> you mean maybe the government is big brother?
No.
I begin from the idyllic, but true, premise that we are all brothers and sisters. In concept, we are to elect our brethren to represent us in *our* government.
I know things get complicated. I am not totally naive to the machinations of politics and corruption. However, by design, the machinery is in place to effect change. It all starts with the dissemination of information, education, deliberation, and then on to the voting booth.
Anyway, that's what I meant by brother/sister.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2014, at 14:48:18
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on March 8, 2014, at 1:24:33
yeah. but then different people have different ideologies.
e.g., about 'minimal laws' so people should be free to do more things like carry guns, take whatever drugs they like etc...
about 'paternalistic' laws that are meant to be for society's own good... so that (for example) perhaps immunisation is required since even if the odd individual takes a hit the society as a whole profits considerably...
i think most people do have complicated mixed feelings about people who seem to make it a lifestyle choice not to work... to instead take some kind of government benefit... in this country people find it very upsetting that some women seem to make it a career choice to have baby after baby after baby after baby... getting more from the government the more mouths they have to feed... the concern is that a fair few women in that position spend that money at the bar (or their current boyfriend spends it at the bar) or whatever... that the money isn't getting to the kids the way it should be...
what to do?
the situation is complicated. should the government be allowed to enforce sterility or make it a condition on benefits in some cases? (there are things that happen with sterility in intellectual handicap / group home cases - yes?) should the government take the kids away? that happens in some cases... the kids often have this unfortunate tendency to prefer to be with their (overly permissive) parents and typically they are unable to tolerate increased rules / boundaries. just stop giving that money? just let them... die?
?
the situation is complicated.
you kinda want to blame the parents. the mother most obviously. since there is there to blame. the irresponsible / absent fathers. but ask the mother what it was like for her growing up... in a lot of cases... they don't know any different.
how is her situation different from that of a trophy wife who needs to (at the end of the day) tow whatever line her husband sets down? why not hate the later? her standard of living is typically higher... better food... transport options... peace and quiet (daycare facilities) etc... she looks after the kids better?
does she teach them the value of...
uh...
hard work?
?
is that the moral here?
?
why think that people living off government handouts don't work hard?
and why think that people who don't... do?
?
Posted by Partlycloudy on March 8, 2014, at 20:57:50
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2014, at 14:48:18
My simplistic stance is that every paycheck I earned whilst working here in the US reflected a payment into a system, the Social Security administration. It was poorly managed, did not realise the growth it needed with the investors who contributed to it, and now faces a crisis, put off for some time in the near future.
Meanwhile, I developed a disability that the federal government, indeed a court and judge, deemed made me unfit for employment. And, lo and behold, my years-long investment in the Social Security administration assured me that my disability would ensure me of a percentage of my potential projected earnings. This payment constitutes my personal income now. It is a fraction of what I used to be able to earn, but I paid a very large chunk of my wages each pay period for just such an eventuality.
It took 2 1/2 years to get my case through the approval process. The government had to back pay me to the original date I filed my case. If I had not had legal assistance, none of this would have happened.
I guess I am just trying to point out that I do not consider this a dependency. More of a just pay out from the system we have all contributed to and had payroll taxes removed from our wages.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2014, at 0:21:32
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by Partlycloudy on March 8, 2014, at 20:57:50
insurance. a form of insurance.
nz has acc (accident compensation) which is... government, i think. basically... employers need to pay a fee to that... and employees do too... and it is basically some kind of insurance for injuries / accidents (that occur in the workplace, the home, or even during recreational activities like drunken falling) that can result in people being unable to return to work. i think people get... 80% their wage for a certain amount of time... but then a significant drop if things are longer than that...
and it is a drawn out process that goes through the courts and requires a lot of expert testimony etc etc, for sure.
that was how they predicted my likely recovery from my injuries. based on similar injuries that occur to builders etc taking a fall. only... they pointed out that they do have a little more incentive than me to have difficulty working... mind you, i'll admit, i'm terrified of falling now, appreciating that i certainly won't bounce, i'll properly shatter next time round. if i were a roofer or a builder or whatever... i most certainly would not be fit to return to that kind of work...
Posted by Partlycloudy on March 9, 2014, at 8:10:17
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » Partlycloudy, posted by alexandra_k on March 9, 2014, at 0:21:32
Yes, that's what it is. I will be reassessed in the future to see if my condition has improved to the point of being able to work. (Many of my symptoms are falling off slightly with my current habitation adjustments, though I am still loathe to leave the house.)
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:08:24
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by Partlycloudy on March 9, 2014, at 8:10:17
Of all the various "political" views regarding this subject, I have found the views found in the American gun culture are most inline with my own. In fact, I have found in the last five or six years that the gun culture most reminds me of the America I grew up with in the seventies and eighties. And the America that my Grandparents and Great Grand Parents established before I was born.
My basic view on "government dependence" is its an abomination. It is abhorrent and many politicians want as many people on the dole as possible. Then they want you to vote for them and they promise you "free stuff," trouble with that is there is no such thing as "free stuff."
so what you end up with is a country where about half the country actually works and pays taxes. The other half does not work and lives off of the other 50% of Americans who do work and pay taxes. I have heard many, many, many Americans who do work and pay taxes exclaim they are absolutely fed up with the other half that are a bunch of bums, who want something for nothing, etc.
Left leaning politicians such as obama want to expand this financial dependence on government and he espoused rhetoric that makes you think you are a victim.
I want the government to fear the people, not the other way around. I want the government to fear me, as a voter and as a citizen and that does not happen when you are financially dependent on the government to survive, off entitlements.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:12:20
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:08:24
Typical welfare recipient and an attitude that has been getting steadily worse since the economic crash of Fall 2008:
I got this off a gun forum the other day. Makes you want to rip your hair out listening to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRRwZDSmTVI
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:45:53
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2014, at 20:56:46
>
Anti-communism is not just a political stance or belief. Anti-communism is a psychology unto itself and IMO, is the main psychology behind opposition to government support. Opposition to too much government dependence is probably rooted in a desire to keep the government small and to control their desire to grow, to keep their power minimized.
This country was set up for the private citizenry to thrive and that is impossible when you have a huge government shelling out dependency dollars.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
> Good question. What do you think is the psychology behind opposition to government support?
>
> Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on March 10, 2014, at 0:47:33
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:08:24
> many politicians want as many people on the dole as possible.
?
why on earth would the government want that?
that won't get it more tax dollars.
Posted by SLS on March 10, 2014, at 8:55:02
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:08:24
LostBoy,
Your writing is compelling.
Historically speaking, how did we get here?
What changes would you like to see in government?
How does change occur?
- Scott
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 10, 2014, at 11:04:50
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » LostBoyinNC45, posted by alexandra_k on March 10, 2014, at 0:47:33
Most politicians do not want as many people on the dole as possible. But there are politicians on the extreme left who do. obama I believe is one of them. The way some politicians aggressively defend these programs, it is obvious they want a percentage of the population on the dole. It is a way to ensure these left winger leaning politicians get re-elected, they can exclaim, "vote for the other guy, that GOP guy, and they will cut your welfare benefits and make you go to work." Guess who will get the votes?
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
> > many politicians want as many people on the dole as possible.
>
> ?
>
> why on earth would the government want that?
>
> that won't get it more tax dollars.
Posted by baseball55 on March 10, 2014, at 20:03:04
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 10, 2014, at 11:04:50
50% of Americans don't work and receive government benefits? What universe do you live in? Where do you get this information? I asked you before - what are these cushy government programs you think people are getting? Have you ever looked at the actual federal budget? Because I have. And I challenge you to provide actual data, not just uninformed bs.
Posted by SLS on March 11, 2014, at 0:29:13
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 10, 2014, at 11:04:50
Hi LostBoy.
Have you ever seen someone whose depression is severe enough that they can no longer remain independent and employed? Should they receive help from the people around them?
It might be cost-effective to pay for more government personnel to review and scrutinize the disability status of people on a more frequent basis. To reduce fraud and abuse of the system should serve to save a huge amount of money.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 1:28:16
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » Dr. Bob, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 9, 2014, at 22:45:53
> I want the government to fear the people, not the other way around. I want the government to fear me, as a voter and as a citizen and that does not happen when you are financially dependent on the government to survive, off entitlements.
> Opposition to too much government dependence is probably rooted in a desire to keep the government small and to control their desire to grow, to keep their power minimized.
Thanks for explaining. If I understand you right, you don't want government to get too powerful. You want the people to have some power, too. Which maybe fits with gun culture.
Bob
Posted by SLS on March 11, 2014, at 9:31:35
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 1:28:16
> I want the government to fear the people, not the other way around.
They do. It's called reelection. VOTE. Some of our government representatives want to remain in office to continue their life's work. There is something unpalatable about the idea of playing politics to accomplish passing legislation that should stand on its own. Setting term limits is the dumbest idea I have yet encountered as a way to control government. It destroys the continuity necessary to learn the system and to begin working on new legislation.
> I want the government to fear me, as a voter and as a citizen and that does not happen when you are financially dependent on the government to survive, off entitlements.
You can't vote for whom you would like to see in government because others vote for the people who best serve their needs and represent philosophies contrary to yours? Sour grapes.
The Second Amendment can be repealed. :-)
As you like to say, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE. It is a blessing that each person has but one vote.
If you get all of us TRD people into the voting booth, guess what else they would vote for? Your NRA friends will be mightily pissed at you.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 11, 2014, at 9:33:06
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 10, 2014, at 11:04:50
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 11, 2014, at 20:40:57
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government?? » LostBoyinNC45, posted by SLS on March 11, 2014, at 0:29:13
Yes, I used to be one of them. From late 97 until I got on CPAP in mid 2007. CPAP changed things around for me. Anytime CPAP is going OK, Im not disabled. Anytime CPAP falls apart, I slip backwards real fast. The thing about CPAP is its not like psych drugs. CPAP works fast...and if the machine breaks....you fall apart fast. If my CPAP therapy needs tweaking periodically, once it gets tweaked right, I go right back to being better...like within a day or two. Its awesome.
psych drugs its not like that. Its slow, its a PITA, its like throwing darts at a dart board.
My mood and mind and my physical health Ive found is dependent on my sleep apnea being treated with CPAP. If that CPAP aint right, Im as good as dead. I have to still take antidepressants but my anti-depressants work way better on CPAP than off CPAP.
Ive been there, done that. I know severe mood disorders causes chronic disability. I hounded and hounded some of my doctors to the point where some of them almost felt like I was harassing them and got some of my problems fixed.
This is a borderline full contact sport, for me. I dont like being disabled and I dont like being like "that." Its painful and expensive and brings my family down with me. Hence I dont play nice all the time with the medical system.
Eric AKA "LostBoyinNC"
> Hi LostBoy.
>
> Have you ever seen someone whose depression is severe enough that they can no longer remain independent and employed? Should they receive help from the people around them?
Posted by LostBoyinNC45 on March 11, 2014, at 20:51:01
In reply to Re: psychology of dependency on the government??, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 1:28:16
something like that. Its not just a gun culture thing. It used to be like that in just regular white American middle class culture. Now, I dont know its changing and it seems to me the gun culture is one part of American culture that is refusing to go down with the ship.
again it goes back to the gun culture is composed of people who mostly have jobs and pay taxes and are more conservative and stuff. People like that dont want the government taking anymore of their money than they can get by with.
America was originally created with the concept of a relatively small and limited government. Particularly a relatively small and limited federal government. we have gotten so far away from that and its something that just irritates strict constructionists on the U.S. Constitution.
Eric AKA LostBoyinNC
> > I want the government to fear the people, not the other way around. I want the government to fear me, as a voter and as a citizen and that does not happen when you are financially dependent on the government to survive, off entitlements.
>
> > Opposition to too much government dependence is probably rooted in a desire to keep the government small and to control their desire to grow, to keep their power minimized.
>
> Thanks for explaining. If I understand you right, you don't want government to get too powerful. You want the people to have some power, too. Which maybe fits with gun culture.
>
> Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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