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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 11:52:18
(I'm not going over the posting limits, am I? It was such an amazing session, but the issues are really very distinct...)
I think I'm a little proud of this - but I think that I *shouldn't* be proud of it...
Last Thursday I gave my therapist a treatment plan form that he needed to fill out for me (I have new insurance). I feel a desperate need to get the insurance (both financial and emotional), and he said something on Thursday that made me think that he might not "pile it on thick" (his words) enough for me to get what I needed. On Friday I went in and was a complete basket case. I couldn't think, I couldn't talk, I kept wanting to say "Take care of me". We both knew that I was "proving" that I was not competent, but we didn't know why. I certainly demonstrated my lack of competence that day. It wasn't something I *wanted* to do (I hate being incompetent), and I tried during the session to break out of the depression, but I couldn't.
As I was driving home, I figured out that I was trying to give him ammunition for the treatment report. I wanted (unconsciously) for him to "see" how depressed I "am".
And he did fill out the treatment report, and he "piled it on thick" (but not untruthfully). And he said today that he might have filled it out differently if I hadn't been such a mess on Friday. He said "I unconsciously colluded with you. That way I could fill out the treatment plan "piling it on thick" without feeling guilty that I was being untruthful."
Kind of scary that I could *so* successfully be *so* manipulative (all unconscious, of course). But, I *am* a master at getting what I want...
Posted by sunny10 on February 11, 2005, at 12:25:11
In reply to Colluding, posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 11:52:18
I prefer to think of this in a different light.
While it's true that you probably were afraid that the report might come out indicating that you didn't need the level of service you are receiving, it's equally true that the thought of not having it caused the "acting out".
Who's to say that you weren't merely reacting to the thought of losing your T? That would stress MOST people out to the extent that you mention reacting to in Friday's session....
I wonder why you and T are looking at this in what appears to be a negative fashion?
just my 2 cents,
sunny10
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 11, 2005, at 14:01:42
In reply to Colluding, posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 11:52:18
I think that's a great example of how sneaky our unconscious minds can be in aiding and abetting our wishes! Mine is just like that, too- the ethical sense which *I* have doesn't extend to my unconscious, which is capable of pulling off all kinds of shenanigans, whenever they're needed. And, once you got squared away on that, you seemed to have taken some wonderful steps forward.
Posted by Shortelise on February 11, 2005, at 14:59:51
In reply to Colluding, posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 11:52:18
Could you have been allowing yourself to show things that you'd been holding back, because letting you T see those things had a real purpose?
Posted by Susan47 on February 11, 2005, at 15:18:38
In reply to Re: Colluding » fallsfall, posted by Shortelise on February 11, 2005, at 14:59:51
I think it's very positive that your T said he unconsciously colluded with you. I'm proud of him ... he sounds very self-aware, and not afraid to share himself with you. Wow.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 11, 2005, at 15:25:18
In reply to Colluding, posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 11:52:18
I agree with exactly what Susan said. She expressed that so well I will leave it alone.
I wonder...can you really "manipulate" someone who ultimately goes along willingly and is quite aware of doing so? And admits as much, with no anger, resentment or discomfort as having been "manipulated?" Something to think about...
You appear to have a very good T. who is really in tune with what's going on with you. What a wonderful thing. :))
Posted by Susan47 on February 11, 2005, at 16:14:18
In reply to Re: Colluding » fallsfall, posted by 10derHeart on February 11, 2005, at 15:25:18
>>
> I wonder...can you really "manipulate" someone who ultimately goes along willingly and is quite aware of doing so? And admits as much, with no anger, resentment or discomfort as having been "manipulated?" Something to think about...
>
Exactly. Quite.
Posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 17:15:07
In reply to Re: Colluding, posted by sunny10 on February 11, 2005, at 12:25:11
I'm not really judging it as "negative". (I guess that is what I mean when I say that I shouldn't be proud of it, but I am - I have a lot of ambivalence about how this feels). Mostly I think I am just seeing it as the way things are. And it seems almost humerous to me that my unconscious could manipulate his - and neither of us knew it!
We are working on having me be more competent - that is our major goal right now. I could tell that it was (unconscious) "acting in" because as soon as I figured out what was going on, I felt fine. As soon as I realized that I didn't *need* to be depressed any more that day (I had left his office, done my "job"), I started feeling much better.
And I won't lose my therapist. I would beg my parents for money to pay for therapy (and they would give it to me without any problem), and I would continue to see him. I don't *WANT* to do that - and it would have an effect on my self-esteem. But I'm not going to "lose" therapy (thank goodness!).
Posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 17:17:09
In reply to Re: Colluding » fallsfall, posted by Pfinstegg on February 11, 2005, at 14:01:42
Exactly. How talented am I that I can get him to do something unconsciously without even know it?? Amazing. - and all this from someone who didn't *have* an unconscious until a couple of months ago!
Posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 17:20:26
In reply to Re: Colluding » fallsfall, posted by Shortelise on February 11, 2005, at 14:59:51
I don't think so. A major focus of my therapy is getting me to understand why I (unconsciously) perpetuate my depression. We have made some progress here, and I *AM* less depressed than I was - so I really am sure that he is on the right track. In Friday's session I was *so* depressed (and I haven't been all that depressed recently) - it was so sudden and so marked. And it went away so quickly when I figured out what I was "doing".
Just amazing stuff!
Posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 17:21:25
In reply to Re: Colluding, posted by Susan47 on February 11, 2005, at 15:18:38
Yes, he doesn't admit to "mistakes" very often. This was good to hear.
Posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 17:25:57
In reply to Re: Colluding » fallsfall, posted by 10derHeart on February 11, 2005, at 15:25:18
He wasn't aware of what was going on until I told him on Monday what my theory was about the cause of Friday's depression. So, he went along "willingly" (he laid it on thick), but I don't think I would say that he was aware while doing that.
I have trouble with the "manipulation" word. For me, it connotes a purposeful act. But I think that I need to redefine "manipulation" to include unconscious actions that cause someone else to do something they wouldn't otherwise do. If you read my posts, I throw in the word "unconsciously" a lot - because to me it makes a big difference if something is done consciously or unconsciously.
And, yes, having him in tune with what is going on with me is truly wonderful.
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 11, 2005, at 17:26:33
In reply to Re: Colluding » fallsfall, posted by Pfinstegg on February 11, 2005, at 14:01:42
No, i didn't have one either! It just developed very recently - now, going to a psychoanalyst has become the most amazing adventure. He uses his unconscious associations- sometimes out loud, but very often silently, to really know what's happening with mine. The bond is getting much stronger between us because of this, and he shares much more of his inner life than he used to. I feel thrilled when he does that- he's a wonderful guy, and it's such a gift. Have fun with your daughter out shopping!
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 19:39:51
In reply to Re: Colluding, posted by sunny10 on February 11, 2005, at 12:25:11
I tend to have a knee jerk reaction to the slightest threat to my therapy. Even though in my case there usually is no useful purpose to it and in fact it's usually counterproductive.
I just lose all sense of proportion, perspective, and common sense when something I love is threatened.
Posted by sunny10 on February 12, 2005, at 9:41:40
In reply to Re: Colluding » sunny10, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 19:39:51
me,too! That's why I reacted the way I did to the post!
Posted by Aphrodite on February 12, 2005, at 11:16:01
In reply to Colluding, posted by fallsfall on February 11, 2005, at 11:52:18
It seems to me that you are a master of getting what you *need*. If you didn't need it, it would not have been so disconcerting and stressful for you. It is also helpful for your T to see that you can fall into those states so that he feels accurate and ethical about what he submits. I'm glad it worked out for you. You seem to have a very good handle on the amount of therapy that is just right for you.
It shouldn't be so hard, should it?
Posted by Susan47 on February 15, 2005, at 0:53:26
In reply to Re: Colluding » Pfinstegg, posted by Pfinstegg on February 11, 2005, at 17:26:33
Lucky lucky you to afford a psychoanalyst .. mmmmm he sounds dreamy.
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 15, 2005, at 16:20:38
In reply to Re: Colluding, posted by Susan47 on February 15, 2005, at 0:53:26
Aw, thanks, Susan. he is great. I should note, however, that it takes my ENTIRE salary!
Posted by Susan47 on February 15, 2005, at 16:45:01
In reply to Re: affording psychoanalysts » Susan47, posted by Pfinstegg on February 15, 2005, at 16:20:38
I can see why, and I'm proud of people like you, you're a credit to the human race. You have a great deal invested in becoming the best you can be. Big huge hugs from me to you, and an ear to ear smile, showing teeth. The genuine smile, not the fake one people adopt nowadays.
This is the end of the thread.
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