![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 1:30:22
In reply to Re: Qutting group » zenhussy, posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 0:29:07
Ok, I'll have to answer to you as well in the morning if I'm not banned once again. Sigh. It would be nice to *for once* be given the opportunity to rephrase that should it come up.
Harumph. I have lots of logical reasoning for ending my associations with this particular group, can even quote some books on trauma and articles. I've gone through this in my head and in my heart. How deeply in either? Remains to be answered.
We'll see if I'm still postworthy come morning.
Thanks for all your rhetorical commentary and the experiment idea. Such fun!!
respectfully,
zenhussy
Posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 1:42:12
In reply to experiment this!...rhetorically of course ; P » shar, posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 1:30:22
I missed the potentially banworthy thing, but about the group, I'd probably go with the therapist's judgement. First I'd try to convince her it was best to leave, but if she still disagreed I'd most likely stay. I assume that she knows better than I do about such things and can see clearer what's going on with me. It scares me to put so much trust in her, and maybe it's not even healthy, but that's what I do.
Posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 2:03:07
In reply to Re: experiment this!...rhetorically of course ; P » zenhussy, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 1:42:12
argh. You and Shar tag teaming me with all this freakin logic? Siiiiiiiiiiigh.
Will attempt to answer to you two ladies in the a.m. and then go on to face my therapist.
Hot damn I'm just rarin' to git to bed so I can wake up and face the music!
I kid. You're both making that kind of annoying honest sense that I'm not in the mood to hear at this moment. But I am most appreciative that you have offered it up.
For that I am very fortunate. Thank you. I am touched by your kindness in answering.
zh
Posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 3:04:17
In reply to do you have to go making so much sense?! sigh » tabitha, posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 2:03:07
oh dear. I hate to be the voice of sensible logic when what is needed is support in a good anti-therapy rant. How's this...
Dang that therapy group! Who needs em? Bunch of whiners! All this endless complaining.. it can't possibly do any good except to line therapists' pockets with our cash. Therapy Schmerapy. Harrumph!
Posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 3:08:06
In reply to Re: do you have to go making so much sense?! sigh » zenhussy, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 3:04:17
Posted by fallsfall on December 17, 2003, at 6:30:39
In reply to Re: lmfao!!...good night and see you in a.m. thx (nm) » tabitha, posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 3:08:06
Maybe I'm out of touch. I know I'm only half here these days.
I didn't know you were in group. I didn't know you were unhappy with group (I know about Tabitha and group, but not you...). And I have been watching your posts - ever since we talked about metal jacks.
Recently you seem to say on the board that you aren't doing great, but you SOUND pretty good to me. Doing research and finding all those babble quotes for people.
So I guess I am surprised that I didn't know you were in group, and I didn't know you wanted to leave, and I still don't know why you want to leave. I may just be my bad memory... But somehow I don't think so. I'm thinking that you haven't said much about this.
Sudden (even to you???) decisions tend to be strangely motivated.
I guess I'd want you to look at it more, and maybe talk to someone (us? your therapist? the group?) more about why you are choosing this path.
Confused.
Posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 11:44:50
In reply to Re: lmfao!!...good night and see you in a.m. thx (nm) » tabitha, posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 3:08:06
Where is your brilliant commentary on the wonderful and logical considerations that were given you last night??????
:))
Nah, really, you don't hafta say nuttin! But, I do feel concerned about you leaving group.
xoxo
Shar
Posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 11:57:23
In reply to Well?? It's morning!! » zenhussy, posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 11:44:50
If they were all so rhetorical then you know the answers!
I don't hafta answer anything.
Nah, I'm working on responses to all of this right now. I went and meditated for a while this morning which helped a bit. My mind is engaged in another battle that I'm very passionate about but I have to balance out these things today.
Just because you're two hours ahead doesn't mean you can rush MY morning missy!! I'll post when I'm gosh dern good 'n' ready!
Thanks for asking after me. Makes me feel all accountable and cared for.
:: grinds toe in dirt ::
zh
Posted by judy1 on December 17, 2003, at 12:13:10
In reply to Qutting group, posted by zenhussy on December 16, 2003, at 21:42:55
This is always what I always hated about group- the other people!!!! I'm gonna meditate too- judy
Posted by speaker on December 17, 2003, at 13:28:58
In reply to Qutting group, posted by zenhussy on December 16, 2003, at 21:42:55
Zen,
I think you're brave to even go to group let alone stay for 14 months :)...I won't even try! I just know myself and it would take more energy to go than it would benefit me. I have been listening to different comments on here about groups and I haven't heard that much good. If you have the energy after you write why you are quitting would you comment on what benefits you received that kept you in group for a yr? Thanks
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2003, at 16:01:15
In reply to Re: Qutting group » zenhussy, posted by judy1 on December 17, 2003, at 12:13:10
That's what I always say about work too! And most other situations, come to think of it.
Posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 21:00:11
In reply to Well?? It's morning!! » zenhussy, posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 11:44:50
> Where is your brilliant commentary on the wonderful and logical considerations that were given you last night??????
> Nah, really, you don't hafta say nuttin! But, I do feel concerned about you leaving group.
> xoxo
> SharShar,
I wrote out quite a presentation to make to my therp. today. I think I did it quite well. Then I bawled like a baby for the second half hour of the session.
Soooooooo....focusing on self care: I have just made some dinner (mmmm boca burger with avo on sour), am taking my nighttime pills, have taken some 9th Circuit Court upheld medicine (aaahhhhhhh), and am going to go lie on the davenport with the pooch and let my mind and body rest.
I have thought about this tons today and wrote out oodles. Keeping with the self care I'm going to put off responding here until I feel a little more back to center. A very wise, kind man told me that I needed to cry and allow that sadness out after such anger yesterday. I think I have to agree with that.
Yesterday and toady were punching bag days. I need some ice and a breather.
Will meditate before bed for short period of time just to have done it twice in a difficult day. My favourite nighttime meditation: http://www.myss.com/dailypractice2.asp
Your Daily Practice - Evening
As you prepare to enter sleep, review how you used your energy during the day, how you invested your spirit, what you learned about the investments you should or shouldn't have made.Thanks to everyone for their questions. They helped me to formulate my presentation to my therp. What awesome perspective y'all offer up to me. Bless all of you!!
zh
Posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 23:03:24
In reply to Re: Well?? It's night » shar, posted by zenhussy on December 17, 2003, at 21:00:11
awwww, now I feel all guilty about being so pushy. Dang, I'm sorry you had such a rough day.
Don't let the bedbugs bite.
xoxo
Shar
Posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 17:47:57
In reply to Well?? It's morning!! » zenhussy, posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 11:44:50
> Where is your brilliant commentary on the wonderful and logical considerations that were given you last night??????
> Nah, really, you don't hafta say nuttin! But, I do feel concerned about you leaving group.
> SharOk. Feel more grounded after a good night's sleep. I'm sick of this double whammy of therapy with group one night and individual the next day. Even athletes get days off! I need a rest.
Part of what I presented to my therapist---
From Herman’s Trauma and Recovery: (ISBN 0-465-08730-2)"Different types of groups are appropriate at different stages of recovery. The primary therapeutic tasks of the individual and group must be congruent. A group that might be well suited to a person at one stage of recovery might be ineffective or even harmful to the same person at another stage.
First-stage groups concern themselves primarily with the task of establishing safety. They focus on basic self-care, one day at a time. Second-stage groups concern themselves primarily with the traumatic event. They focus on coming to terms with the past. Third-stage groups concern themselves primarily with reintegrating the survivor into the community of ordinary people. They focus on interpersonal relationships in the present. The structure of each type of group is adapted to its task." p.217
I know I’m obviously in the second stage but perhaps not in a group that is fully congruent to my therapeutic goals. Yalom’s “adaptive spiral” is great but I do not have many of the issues the other members of the group have. We all boost one another by relating in a way but I will never be able to relate to their experience while they can fully relate to mine. I want to be in a group where people know EXACTLY what I’m talking about when I describe a flashback, a fear, a nightmare, a panic attack.
"...group treatment complements the intensive, individual exploration of the trauma story, but does not necessarily replace it. The social, relational dimensions of the traumatic syndrome are more fully addressed in a group than in an individual treatment setting, while the physioneurosis of the trauma requires a highly specific, individualized focus on desensitizing the traumatic memory. Both components of treatment may be necessary for full recovery." p. 232
I just wonder how much this group is helping now instead of returning the focus to the individual.
~~~~~
>>Dinah--"I suspect that very few of us really know the impact we have on others, apart from family perhaps."Major part of having one’s reality discounted, questioned, not validated or what have you has left me with the sense of not mattering. I know logically that I do. I’m just used to slipping away unnoticed, or so I think. I guess I don’t go unnoticed.
The reactions of the women shocked me. I felt awful when I realized what I must have done even though I still am trying to fully grasp it. One burst into tears, another couldn’t speak, the third looked as if she ‘left’, and the other looked as if she had been punched in the stomach.
I received feedback from all but one of them. Wrote down what I could remember. Have been working with those thoughts and trying to apply them to me. Sometimes it feels as if this is happening to someone else. That is the dissociation part I think. More awareness means I have a better chance of learning to use other methods and stop using this as my ‘go to’ method by default.
>>Shar--What in the group precipitated my sudden decision to leave? Rhetorically, of course….well…it isn’t as if I haven’t always questioned the fit of this particular group all along. Without getting too specific it just isn’t limited to the type of trauma that I experienced but also includes women who’ve experienced a completely different type of boundary violation that doesn’t even begin to enter into my experience. Sometimes it is more difficult than helpful to hear week after week (fourteen months worth with a break when I was out in Canada) of this type of trauma. I know there are overlaps and am aware of the positive aspects of sharing my experience within this type of environment…however I’m wondering if I can’t continue on with the work I’m doing in another type of environment.
I’m not sure yet of seeking out another group more closely fit to my needs or just tacking on an additional day of therapy a week. Maybe even using the money I used for group for luxury therapies: hot tubbing, massage, kickboxing classes, etc. Things that just seem like luxuries when the money isn’t coming in and you’re doing without some essentials……..pride be damned. I’m learning a continuous lesson of humility.
As for the next part of your post: Are you getting too close to something? Is someone else getting too close to something? No I don’t think I’m in the running away from this mode. I’ve been facing this stuff head on in individual and able to speak more than I’ve ever been able to before. Yeah, too close……flashbacks are scary. I had two last week that were of the nature I’d rather not experience again. It has been a long time since I’ve had them. I guess I had mistakenly thought that I had moved through that stage of healing and was now grappling with a beast of a different nature. I guess this beast morphs. I’m not avoiding questions. I’ve been able to stay present 95% of a two hour group session. Considering the nature of the work I was doing that day that is amazing. Couldn’t have done that even a year ago.
>>Tabitha--I do trust my therapist. I’ve been handing over the pacing thing to the therp. and pdoc because I’m not doing very well charging at this full tilt. I’ve had the ‘this isn’t the right group for me’ discussion before probably each time the group began (each twelve or sixteen week run) and ended up going with staying on in group. I’m now doing a different level of work in individual and just wonder if I can’t sustain that level of work without the pros and cons of being in a trauma group?
I don’t think it is unhealthy to trust your therp. From what you’ve written about your group experiences it sounds as if you’re in the place and ready to tackle the issues that a group like yours brings out. I’m quite proud you’re facing things head on even when you don’t feel like doing squat. You’re doing more than you think just by challenging yourself in that type of environment.
>>Fallsfall--You’re not only half here these days. Shush. I haven’t written about my group because it is difficult to do so without disclosing too much of my personal story here on the board. I can only allude to so much and somehow that doesn’t feel right.
Sudden decisions can be good or bad. I don’t know how much of anything to chalk up to the med switches I’ve been constantly going through for the past couple of months. How much is the nature of the traumas I lived through? How much is from the hospitalizations before and after? How much is due to my new awareness of the extent of how much I use and have used dissociation?
Nothing is written in stone. I don’t have to decide until the group comes to an end anyway sometime in February. If I decide to stay I will, of course, hash out the fallout of just what the hell happened with me blurting out during my turn that basically ‘I’m outta here’. I see and know that I did have an impact on the other people in the room. I never even imagined or thought of that being the reaction or of how this could be hurtful. I’m not that inconsiderate so I really do have a lot of work to do to understand and change why I believe I just don’t matter/count/exist.
>>Judy1--I hope the meditation proved to be helpful. I’ve certainly benefited from meditating more over the past while. It must be quite the challenge to find time to meditate with that little one of yours!
I’m really not down on this group due to the people, surprisingly! After years of retail I’ve learned to have quite the loathing for other people and to be confined in a room and HAVE to listen to them?! It does sound crazy when it is put like that!
It isn’t how the people are but more of the extent of the differences between their experiences and mine. The overlap used to be enough but now I’m wondering if it isn’t hindering what it is I want out of my healing path. Oh so many questions.
Gonna go meditate on the beach while the dog runs about in the surf. Om.
>>Speaker--Well thank you for thinking I’m brave. Group was scary as all get out at first. Hell it was scary just this past round when it began. I only knew one woman from the previous incarnation of the group and was meeting four new people. No matter that I knew the therapist, the structure of the group as far as how it ran, how time was handled, what was and wasn’t allowed, it still was a scary beginning.
The first group I attended a few years back was like a baby steps group for survivors of abuse including domestic abuse, rape, emotional battering, physical assault, robbery. That experience was helpful in getting me to the stage I’m at now to be able to talk about what I couldn’t for so many years.
Back then I was dissociating most of the time. When talking about anything to even do with the night of my traumas I was robotic and removed. I couldn’t even be in my body almost two decades after the assault because I was still so terrified.
That group was very much a first-stage group.
My group experience for the past fourteen months? Ups and downs. I was nervous when I stepped into the room for the very first time but it quickly became a very safe space in which to do many types of healing work around trauma. The structure set up by the therapist is very formal and really helps keep everyone on course.
This is a second-stage group. Closed membership. Set times and commitment to being there for entire time. Therapist interviews potential new members if there is an opening in the group. People need to be at a certain level in their therapeutic work to be in a group of this nature. It is not for the faint of heart. I’m rather steeled to the stories I hear each new round when someone new joins. I can’t believe the things done to women. The horrors endured for years on end by some.
So one really needs to have a strong sense of boundaries and ability to not take on other’s stuff. If I hadn’t had years of therapy and done the EMDR work then I would never have been able to hear the things I do each week and still return. I am responsible for my work and issues only. What other people do or do not do is their business. I cannot change what they went through but I can change how I react to hearing about it now.
Let’s see…the positives? Well I happened to be in this group when a long term relationship ended abruptly and if I hadn’t had the support of the women in the group I do not exaggerate to say I could have died. I had a lot of medical issues including my depression being terribly bad back then. They saved my tush. I mean literally. Fed me, had me stay at their homes with my dog because it was too painful to stay here while my ex was moving out. I was devastated by this and in poor health before it happened so the support of the group was fundamental to my survival back at the beginning of this year.
The structure with the time allotment really kept things moving and balanced. I think just the challenge of attending and being accountable to the other members of a group was one of the first things that I benefited from.
Watching other women so far ahead of me on the healing journey and learning from them by example. Learning by listening to them over the course of months and seeing firsthand their progress. Watching others asking for what they needed, unapologetically too! That to me was an eye opener. I learned that I could ask for help and have people say no without it being the end of the world. I learned that I could ask for help and be amazed by the love and support offered up.
I’ve learned to reach out when I’m really in trouble instead of isolating or returning to unhealthy coping mechanisms. I’ve learned it is okay to trust. I’ve learned to cry….I mean just last week I sobbed my eyes out with a guttural cry that I wasn’t aware needed to come out.
So if I haven’t rambled too much I hope I’ve helped put some positives on one type of group experience.
~~~~~
Damn that was a lot of writing. I wrote this all out longhand because I wanted to really think about the questions raised and get this down in my journal. So excuse all spelling errors as I just don't care enough to deal right now.
zh
Posted by fallsfall on December 18, 2003, at 18:10:56
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long), posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 17:47:57
Excellent. I think that you have carefully thought this out.
You have raised a number of issues to address both in individual and group therapy. Is this the right group for you now? How do you impact other members of the group? Are there other theraputic activities that would be more beneficial? Is this related to your med changes?
I'm really glad you have two months to process this decision!
You have grown so much through the group. You have done very hard work. You should be very proud of your progress.
One other question. The group has been a very important part of your support network. I know that not too long ago you were having a very difficult time. If you leave the group, will you have enough support network left to get you through future crises? I know we like to think we are done with crises, but somehow, we never really seem to be.
You are thinking about all the right things. I'm sure that you will make the right decision for you.
Posted by DaisyM on December 18, 2003, at 18:35:57
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long), posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 17:47:57
What a great and wonderful post. I feel like I learned a lot just by reading it, not the least of which is that there is hope for progress on this journey. I've just started mine but after a VERY intense session this afternoon was wondering if it is even worth it. Maybe I'll rethink that.
Thanks for sharing.
Posted by Speaker on December 18, 2003, at 19:48:30
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long) » zenhussy, posted by DaisyM on December 18, 2003, at 18:35:57
ZH,
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer! I really do think you are brave and after reading all that I am definite your a hero of mine :). I have been told group would be good for me but nobody could explain why except its good to talk and hear others have gone through what I have to some extent...well, I'm not that good at talking about this stuff (I am really bad with a new T...it stinks) and I don't really want to hear details of others. I do take on other people's problems and always want to help. YOu have explained the benefits of group very well! I didn't know there were different levels and I'm not sure there is anything like that in my area. Well, I might at least give it a thought after reading some of the benefits you have received. Thanks!
Posted by shar on December 18, 2003, at 23:18:41
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long), posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 17:47:57
I agree with what everyone has said in response to this post. Using your intuition, self-guidance to do things NOT to your detriment, and what I believe is a developing general caring about yourself--I trust implicitly that you will make the right decision. And, I encourage you to trust yourself.
I understand much better what you are talking about (the why part) and it makes sense to me that you are considering leaving.
Namaste
Shar
Posted by judy1 on December 19, 2003, at 10:05:13
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long), posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 17:47:57
What a fabulous post! You really explained how group works, and why I would dissociate for the entire time I was there- I simply wasn't ready. I'm glad that you received so much from this group and I know whatever decision you make will be the right one. And yes it's hard to meditate when you have a toddler trying to stand on your stomach and she's 30+ pounds of pudgy legs and feet. but I wouldn't trade it for the world:-)
good luck, judy
P.S. were you referring to Irwin Yalom? I have all his books, I would love to see him.
Posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 16:59:08
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long), posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 17:47:57
Great post. Thanks for the information about the different functions group can serve. I'd never heard any of that. So I think I understand why you're thinking of quitting. It's an issue-focused group, and you feel your issues don't match up well enough with the other members? It's understandable you might want to move on after 14 months. I encourage you to keep processing it with the group anyway, just in case they could meet your needs better if they understood what you're missing.
Personally I like the idea of using the money for weekly luxuries. Maybe do that for a while anyway, even if you decide to try another group or more individual sessions? Imagine a month of weekly massages. Ahhh.
Posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:21:03
In reply to Re: why I'm quitting group....maybe (oh so long) » zenhussy, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 16:59:08
Can't type. Really. Just spent twenty minutes trying to get a paragraph together. Lamotrigine making me stoooopid. Ugh.
I think it also contributed to today's flip out in individual therapy. I attended the group meeting this week (slept through it--which is okay in this kind of group...kinda hard to describe) but didn't hear much of what was going on in the bit I was awake for.
Apparently the other members were saying that they were glad I was there and were concerned about me. This is information relayed to me today by my therapist. I guess I'm not "getting it" that I'm an integral part of this group right now. I'm not sure if I'm not allowing myself to attain real closeness with the other members because of my.....because of my....lost that. Frig this med sucks.
I went to a place that for me was very difficult to go to emotionally and felt slapped down. I expressed some reasons of why this particular group wasn't working for me and what qualities I wanted out of a group. In expressing my frustration with why this group isn't quite the right fit I related internally to something decades old and was crying angrily as I responded. Instead of any validation or understanding of how deep a vault I just had to break into to figure out that piece of info I was met with a raised voice irritated therapist. I even explicitly explained what I was upset over but was met with even more of this verbal assault of crap. I don't need this right now.
Screw that. I left. It's been ages since I stormed out of a session (I did all that necessary garbage when I was an angry eighteen year old and prone to hissy fits) but I don't pay people to piss me off when I'm vulnerable. I'm not doing that kind of work. I'm not exploring my inner freaking self...I'm doing specific trauma work and focusing on that alone. I resent the hell out of anyone getting in my way of that path of healing.
Today my path was perturbed. That chaps my hide.
Didn't reread this for making sense or for spelling so please grammar and spelling witches and warlocks stay back and leave me be.
a foul mooded zenhussy
Posted by fallsfall on December 25, 2003, at 11:12:26
In reply to Re: huzza fuzza? med stupid and prickly mood, posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:21:03
((((((Zen)))))
I'm sorry that group was so hard for you. I wish that somehow they could have understood (particularly your therapist!).
Please take good care of yourself today. Can you do what you want for you? Or do you have nasty obligations today?
Here's a wish for peace.
(((((ZENHUSSY)))))
Posted by shar on December 25, 2003, at 11:42:54
In reply to Re: huzza fuzza? med stupid and prickly mood, posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:21:03
Zen,
I hope your Christmas has some redeeming moments. I'm thinking of you, and would send this Biblical message to your therapist: Get thee behind her!(([[Zen))]]
Shar
Posted by judy1 on December 25, 2003, at 12:20:19
In reply to Re: huzza fuzza? med stupid and prickly mood, posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:21:03
that you aren't feeling well. lamictal did that to me also (the memory part) and I simply didn't last on it which is a shame because I know so many people with bipolar depression who do well on it. as far as doing trauma work, I get the part about how group can help, but honestly I've never benefitted from that. I guess it just has to be the right group and therp, because as you wrote you're so vulnerable that the wrong words can set you back and worse. I'm glad you took care of yourself and left- do you think this group will be able to help you if you try (again) to explain to the therp why he/she upset you? take care- judy
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 12:46:02
In reply to Re: huzza fuzza? med stupid and prickly mood, posted by zenhussy on December 25, 2003, at 2:21:03
Ugh. Sorry. :(
I wonder if this is the same problem I perceive with Tabitha's group. That when a therapist runs both group and individual sessions with group members, that there is just an inherent conflict of interest. And that we're so used to therapist's putting the needs of the client first, but here they have two clients, the individual and the group as a whole, and are balancing those needs. Sometimes better than others.
Also maybe she has a bit too much emotional/professional investment in the group and the group placements?
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