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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 14:29:44
Is terrible. When a person kills himself, he does not kill the pain he is feeling. Instead, he leaves it behind as a sort of inheritance for his friends and family to live with. They will live with it for the rest of their lives. It will never go away, and it will haunt them. They will play the "what if" game constantly, over and over in their heads. Every day they will think of the person and they will feel a feeling that is unlike any other. Time does not make it better, if anything, time makes it worse. Because each day that passes brings you one more day further from a time when you had that person. You want to go back so badly, to the point that you actually begin to believe in silly things like time travel and alternate universes. Your only hope is to see them again in Heaven, but even that is uncertain. You question if God will still let them in. This leads to questioning God himself. If the pain of the depression wasnt hell enough, why would God send that person to another hell for eternity? Then you begin to wonder if you would choose hell over heaven, if it meant getting to hug and hold the person you loved one last time.
I miss my Daddy so so much. He died Jan 27, 1986 - one day before the Challenger space shuttle exploded. The Challenger had initally been scheduled for launch two days before, but was postponed. It exploded anyway. Sometimes I wonder if it had not been postponed, would my dad have seen the explosion and the devastation, and if it would have revived some sense of will to live?
Or if prozac had of been released in 1985 instead of 1987. Or if they would have tried a new doctor, instead of trusting the quack they trusted for several years.
If only......
If only......
If only......OR
If only I could just let it go.......
Posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 14:32:45
In reply to Suicide, posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 14:29:44
Sometimes I imagine my dad is singing this song to me - telling me he wishes we could start over again and he could take it back...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=V3Kd7IGPyeg
and sometimes I imagine he tells me he is sorry in this song....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fwGHQ6WyQFUMaybe some of you out there can identify with these songs too.
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 5, 2008, at 18:05:52
In reply to Suicide, posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 14:29:44
Jane - Your post should be required reading for every suicidal person.
((((Jane))))
Suicide Sucks.
Abbie
Posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 22:01:09
In reply to Re: Suicide » calamityjane, posted by AbbieNormal on June 5, 2008, at 18:05:52
thanks abbie - hugs back to you, also....
Posted by frida on June 7, 2008, at 14:11:29
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 14:32:45
Your post brought me to tears. I am so sorry you have to suffer so much.
I feel your pain.
When sometimes the idea of suicide comes to me as a way out, i do think about this and i feel that if i can't for myself, then i have to stay alive because of those who would suffer. I made a pact with my therapist, I would never want her to suffer , or my partner...
Your post made me feel this even more strongly.
I am so sorry for your pain.
love,
Frida
Posted by Sigismund on June 7, 2008, at 22:36:19
In reply to Re: Suicide » calamityjane, posted by frida on June 7, 2008, at 14:11:29
Life does not last forever. Sometimes it feels very long and at others very short. Time will kill us all off, and that's how it should be.
Posted by calamityjane on June 8, 2008, at 10:57:59
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by Sigismund on June 7, 2008, at 22:36:19
> Life does not last forever. Sometimes it feels very long and at others very short. Time will kill us all off, and that's how it should be.
what do you mean by this?
(and to Frida - thank you, i appreciate your response to my post)
Posted by Sigismund on June 8, 2008, at 17:55:23
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by calamityjane on June 8, 2008, at 10:57:59
> > Life does not last forever. Sometimes it feels very long and at others very short. Time will kill us all off, and that's how it should be.
>
>
>
> what do you mean by this?For a start, it's one less reason to kill yourself, because you will die soon enough, even though it might feel very long.
I've had a few good friends who have killed themselves and perhaps for that reason they are often on my mind. Some are from more than 30 years ago. Mainly I admire their resolve and determination, regret that I never told them in time what they meant to me, and feel sorrow that their lives ended and in that way.
We live in such a relentlessly superficial upbeat culture where the voice of despair is unwelcome, so when people vote with their feet it no longer surprises me.
Posted by calamityjane on June 8, 2008, at 20:07:08
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by Sigismund on June 8, 2008, at 17:55:23
Oh, I see now. Not sure why I didnt get that the first time around. Thanks for explaining for me anyway.
This is true - I cant believe how short life seems now that I have some years behind me. When I was younger it didnt feel that way. My dad was 38 when he died. He should have known this at that time. I get angry at him.
> > > Life does not last forever. Sometimes it feels very long and at others very short. Time will kill us all off, and that's how it should be.
> >
> >
> >
> > what do you mean by this?
>
> For a start, it's one less reason to kill yourself, because you will die soon enough, even though it might feel very long.
>
> I've had a few good friends who have killed themselves and perhaps for that reason they are often on my mind. Some are from more than 30 years ago. Mainly I admire their resolve and determination, regret that I never told them in time what they meant to me, and feel sorrow that their lives ended and in that way.
>
> We live in such a relentlessly superficial upbeat culture where the voice of despair is unwelcome, so when people vote with their feet it no longer surprises me.
>
>
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 11, 2008, at 21:27:20
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by Sigismund on June 8, 2008, at 17:55:23
"Mainly I admire their resolve and determination..."
This sounds almost like you are romanticizing or glorifying suicide. Is that how you really feel about it, or am I misinterpreting your words?
My feelings about suicide tend more towards fury, rage, etc. So it's kinda hard for me to fathom.
Abbie
Posted by Tabitha on June 12, 2008, at 0:53:51
In reply to Re: Suicide » Sigismund, posted by AbbieNormal on June 11, 2008, at 21:27:20
No warning.
No chance to say goodbye.
A pile of questions and no answers, ever.A policeman told me murder is the hardest on survivors. I can't say, but I have my doubts.
Posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2008, at 22:49:03
In reply to Re: Suicide » Sigismund, posted by AbbieNormal on June 11, 2008, at 21:27:20
No, I meant what I said.
I don't think it's romanticising it.
I have mixed feelings.
I could have left off the 'mainly', because mainly what I feel about people who have done it is the other two things, the regret and the sadness.
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 3:29:32
In reply to Re: Suicide » AbbieNormal, posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2008, at 22:49:03
I often feel the same way.
I would not expect anyone to live a life they felt was unendurable. Selfish? Sometimes. Sometimes it's a sincere belief that those around them would be better off without them.
all the words in the world can't change that feeling.Anger? at the loss but not at the person.
Maybe it's selfish to expect someone to live through, what by their standard is unendurable.
I have had personal experience with it but still feel that way. I don't find it romantic or glorified. When I think of that I think of romanticized lovers (Romeo and Juliet) high school teenage sweethearts. I don't think of years of pain and terror, hospitals, and pills, finally the loss of any hope, I don't see romance or glory there.
Posted by Sigismund on June 13, 2008, at 5:29:07
In reply to Re: Suicide » Sigismund, posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 3:29:32
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread.
I was thinking a little more about this and about my friends who have killed themselves and I realised they would not be nearly so significant to me if they had just faded out of my life.
I find myself looking back over their lives and interpreting their various characteristics in view of the way their lives ended.
One was always able to leave.
Two of them had beautiful manners.
All were really bright.
All of them gave it more than enough thought.It's more than natural to find this very painful, though I don't find it in myself to say that they made the wrong decision; or that they made the right one.
I certainly miss them now in a way I would not if they had not killed themselves, though I'm not sure how much sense that makes.
It is a long time ago now and I find it a comfort to remember them.
But it's always a worry (eg I have children), and perhaps a reminder to us all to take care of ourselves and each other as well as we can.
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 6:28:50
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by Sigismund on June 13, 2008, at 5:29:07
Mental illness, depression, can be fatal. It's a fact. I rage against the disease, against the shabby treatment, but I cannot rage against people who have succumbed to it, any more than I can those who've died of cancer.
Posted by fayeroe on June 14, 2008, at 16:54:47
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by Tabitha on June 12, 2008, at 0:53:51
> No warning.
> No chance to say goodbye.
> A pile of questions and no answers, ever.
>
> A policeman told me murder is the hardest on survivors. I can't say, but I have my doubts.
I see suicide as having a choice and murder as something we can't prevent. And that is not set in concrete..my FIL accomplished it while drinking. I didn't feel that he was rational enough to think it through. However, it was clear to me that he had thought of it before.So, I think that suicide can be harder on the survivors because sometimes you feel that you could have helped to prevent their death.
Posted by fayeroe on June 14, 2008, at 16:59:31
In reply to Re: Suicide » Tabitha, posted by fayeroe on June 14, 2008, at 16:54:47
> > No warning.
> > No chance to say goodbye.
> > A pile of questions and no answers, ever.
> >
> > A policeman told me murder is the hardest on survivors. I can't say, but I have my doubts.
>
>
> I see suicide as having a choice and murder as something we can't prevent. And that is not set in concrete..my FIL accomplished it while drinking. I didn't feel that he was rational enough to think it through. However, it was clear to me that he had thought of it before.
>
> So, I think that suicide can be harder on the survivors because sometimes you feel that you could have helped to prevent their death.
>An added note..I definitely believe that people have unendurable lives and I understand that as much as I can. One of my friends killed himself over a $10,000 debt. I spent years wondering why he didn't come to us about it. I finally gave it up because values obviously played a huge part in it. I don't believe that he would have killed himself, had he not had that debt. I had a very good sense of him.
Posted by calamityjane on June 16, 2008, at 9:29:14
In reply to Re: Suicide » Tabitha, posted by fayeroe on June 14, 2008, at 16:54:47
> > No warning.
> > No chance to say goodbye.
> > A pile of questions and no answers, ever.
> >
> > A policeman told me murder is the hardest on survivors. I can't say, but I have my doubts.
>
>
> I see suicide as having a choice and murder as something we can't prevent. And that is not set in concrete..my FIL accomplished it while drinking. I didn't feel that he was rational enough to think it through. However, it was clear to me that he had thought of it before.
>
> So, I think that suicide can be harder on the survivors because sometimes you feel that you could have helped to prevent their death.
>Or, suicide is difficult for those who feel they SHOULD have been that persons REASON to live, such as in my situation.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 11:35:14
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by calamityjane on June 16, 2008, at 9:29:14
> Or, suicide is difficult for those who feel they SHOULD have been that persons REASON to live, such as in my situation.
>I know this sort of feeling is probably not something that bends easily with logic. But let me say this.
I have a wonderful son. He is a joy to me, not only as a son, but as a young person. My husband and I would go to parenting classes, and the other parents would be angry with us for having such bizarre parenting concerns. "My son is perhaps too thoughtful." I have to keep my mouth shut around my son's friends' parents when they're talking about the challenges of raising a boy. He is in every way a delight.
Yet there is no way he could sustain being my reason to live. Not because he isn't good enough or wonderful enough. But because no one could, or should, be another person's reason to live. You could have been the apple of your father's eye, the joy of his heart. But you could never be his sole reason to live in the face of his other demons.
When parents say their kids are their reason to live, they don't mean it in the sense that their kids are too wonderful to leave. They say it because when you become a parent, you recognize that you have an obligation to put that little being first, in the larger sense of the phrase. Not in the eating chicken necks while they eat the breasts sort of way. Not for a while, or even while they're little, but forever.
When they say that they mean that they recognize that their death, and especially their suicide will bring untold pain to their children. And that they have a responsibility to their children not to make that choice and not to cause that pain. And they have the strength to live up to that responsibility.
The focus of responsibility is on your father, not on you. Maybe his thinking was so clouded that he couldn't recognize how much pain it would cause him. Maybe his sense of responsibility wasn't strong enough to make that pain enough to counterbalance his own. Or maybe he wasn't strong enough to live up to that responsibility.
Whatever the truth on his side, the truth on your side is that you could never have been enough, no matter how wonderful you were, to be his sole reason *to* live. And that you were completely enough to be his reason *for* living, had he allowed anyone to be his tie to this life through love and obligation.
I'm really sorry for your loss.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 11:40:16
In reply to Re: Suicide » calamityjane, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 11:35:14
Oops. That should have read:
"Maybe his thinking was so clouded that he couldn't recognize how much pain it would cause you."
And I also probably meant that he couldn't be strong enough, not that he wasn't strong enough...
Posted by calamityjane on July 31, 2008, at 11:54:40
In reply to Re: Suicide » calamityjane, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 11:35:14
Thanks, Dinah, for your post. I intended to respond much sooner, but just have not been back to the boards in awhile.
I have a 7 year old daughter, and while she is most certainly not my sole reason for living, she brings LIFE into my life. I wonder who she will be when she grows up, and I dont want to miss a moment of her life.
I guess those are the feelings I am relying on, when I ask how he possibly could have left me.
I could never leave her -
I do wonder very much so what it felt like to be him. I want to know if his pain was worse than the pain I now have because of him. That is just something I never will get the chance to know.
People tell me that depression is terrible. But I think knowing that your very own parent CHOSE to leave permanantly is just as terrible a feeling, if not worse. - my dad left me and he knew he was NEVER coming back. I was 5.
Its hard for me to not feel bitter towards suicide. I am furious that it exists. I sm furious that God gives us that option to check out early. God put me here in this world that he made - a world where children depend on parents. I did not ask to be born into a world like this one - so how could God possibly give MY father the option to leave me?
Posted by daveuk08 on August 10, 2008, at 13:32:42
In reply to Suicide, posted by calamityjane on June 5, 2008, at 14:29:44
Calamity jane,
I don`t visit to many of the boards,I mainly go into social.But I`ve just read your thread,and its described virtualy everything I`m going through since Slinky died,what you say is true about as each day goes by, instead of getting easier it gets harder, and the "ifs" get more.
I had to go to the social security office to sort out my incapcity claim,the girl that I saw, read the death certificate, and said to me you pore thing,she had lost her boyfriend many years ago to the same way as I lost Slinky, I asked her how did she get over it, she replied you don`t,you can only try to live with it,but it just is always in your head ,and every now and then it reappears.Its now 3mths since Slinky took her own life, but still my head is throbing, by body is hurting,and I`m still finding it hard to concentrate on doing things,the only time I feel any peace within my head is when I feel that I`m actually helping others here who have problems,as I tried to do with Slinky.
One day my life will get back on track,I just hope it will be sooner rather than later.Dave
Posted by calamityjane on August 10, 2008, at 19:49:15
In reply to Re: Suicide » calamityjane, posted by daveuk08 on August 10, 2008, at 13:32:42
> Calamity jane,
>
> I don`t visit to many of the boards,I mainly go into social.But I`ve just read your thread,and its described virtualy everything I`m going through since Slinky died,what you say is true about as each day goes by, instead of getting easier it gets harder, and the "ifs" get more.
> I had to go to the social security office to sort out my incapcity claim,the girl that I saw, read the death certificate, and said to me you pore thing,she had lost her boyfriend many years ago to the same way as I lost Slinky, I asked her how did she get over it, she replied you don`t,you can only try to live with it,but it just is always in your head ,and every now and then it reappears.Its now 3mths since Slinky took her own life, but still my head is throbing, by body is hurting,and I`m still finding it hard to concentrate on doing things,the only time I feel any peace within my head is when I feel that I`m actually helping others here who have problems,as I tried to do with Slinky.
> One day my life will get back on track,I just hope it will be sooner rather than later.
>
> DaveI am so glad that you read what I wrote, because this is all pretty new for you still, and I am sure you dont even know what to expect each day upon waking. I imagine that friends and family dont really know what to say to you right now, or how to act around you. They may pretend like nothing ever happened. because suicide is not like death. its different.
You are feeling something right now that the average person will never know or understand. You are living in a brand new world now, one that you never knew. There is one thing that has remained the same, however, and that is the fact that YOU are still in control of your own future. She may have taken one path away from you - that path that had her in your life. But YOU still get to choose your next path. And while YES, you will be forced to leave her behind, with each day CERTAINLY taking you further from her, the world still remains to be one where we can make new paths and new lives.
I think of my father EVERY SINGLE DAY. The pain is real and it hurts. I anticipate it will be there forever. Jerks that just dont get it think that I CHOOSE to be sad. That I could snap my fingers and "get over it". I want to slap them in the face. But I just keep calm and remind myself that "they couldnt possibly understand" and I smile and nod and tell them I'm working on it.
Oh, anyway - sorry to ramble. Its a topic very close to my heart. Jan will be 23 years. And every single day I still have to ask myself " Did he REALLY do this? Did he REALLLY???????"
For now, focus on preparing a good and solid foundation for keeping her memory alive. I dont have many memories of my dad, nor do i have a family that cared enough about me at the time to do that for me. 20 years from now you are going to miss her just as much as you do now. and you will want to remember her the way you do right now. but it wont be so easy to recall, when that time comes.
This is the end of the thread.
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