Psycho-Babble Self-Esteem Thread 693576

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

“Everyone should be depressed” (?)

Posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 14:06:19

In Daniel Gilbert's "Stumbling on Happiness" (which I recommend, despite its faults), he talks about how "normal", "healthy" humans have these safety mechanisms in their minds that kick in at times when things are going horribly wrong in our little worlds. Thus we think if our dog dies we'll be inconsolably miserable for months, but when it actually happens, we aren't *able* to feel as bad as we thought we would or think we should. Or contemplating a disaster, we expect to tear out our hair & give up, but when disaster actually hits, we tap some reservoir of emotional equilibrium and just do what needs to be done. Also, there are built-in biasing mechanisms that make us brush over our undeniable faults and errors and really, truly *believe* the lame excuses we may make for our shortcomings, even while we see that, logically, they're ridiculous in applying them to anyone else.

While I sometimes seem to have some crisis-management equilibrium, as I was reading the book, I kept shouting, "BUT I DON'T HAVE THOSE MECHANISMS!" Mostly, I don't brush over or excuse my faults & errors. Even if I speak up to defend myself, nevertheless I agree with any critic; I'll go far beyond them, in fact.

And I can't see how other people manage to do it, either. If I were leading almost anyone's life — saint, statesperson, billionaire, mensch, whatever — I would be unrelenting in my self-criticism. How do they do it?!

Declan has made the observation that depressives tend to be moralistic. Perhaps this is related or even underlies that, somehow.

I wonder if there is a specific physiological process that accounts for it. "If I only had a couple more axons extending back to Area 51…" or whatever.

Sometimes the label "mentally ill" or the idea of physiological brain disease seems to be liberating for me in that normal, healthy, fault-excusing way. But the effect is short-lived.

I don't want to get a PBC for this post, so let be clear: I'm not saying other people are bad or undeserving of healthy bias. I just don't get how they manage to do it.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname

Posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 15:46:20

In reply to “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 14:06:19

Goodmorning to you...I had a laugh over this. "Sometimes the label "mentally ill" or the idea of physiological brain disease seems to be liberating for me in that normal, healthy, fault-excusing way. But the effect is short-lived."

There's this classical pianist here who one day found pus coming out of an eye. It turned out he had these brain tumpours, and ones in his spine as well. He'd thought he could beat it, but in the end was more or less resigned to handling his lot as well as he could. His last line was something like 'It will be a great comfort to me when death comes in its own time'. I think he meant something about acceptance. The way this lovely young man dealt with his cancer reminded me that depression can be just as difficult to handle in a way that one can be satisfied with after the event.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?)

Posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 16:30:15

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname, posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 15:46:20

Damos / Phillipa / ClearSkies -- I hope this topic is right for this board.

Another thing Gilbert talks about is how people can blithely & routinely ignore truly terrifying, horrific things, like imminent death. We *can* comprehend how very, very bad it is, but we don't; we simply don't. I guess that's really where my subject line comes from: Everybody *should* be depressed because we're all going to die, and the sun will run out of fuel, and the Big Bang will re-collapse, and that's it.

We comprehend it perfectly, but most of us don't feel anything about it because it's not in our genes' interest for us to care. Our mental safety valves usually prevent it from being important. Unless we're depressed.

I feel my self-esteem deflating because I think I should've started this thread on another board.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname

Posted by Poet on October 10, 2006, at 18:21:00

In reply to “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 14:06:19

Hi Pseudoname,

You wrote: mostly, I don't brush over or excuse my faults & errors. Even if I speak up to defend myself, nevertheless I agree with any critic; I'll go far beyond them, in fact.

Me, too. One of the things I get the joy (sarcasm intended) of working on in therapy is handling criticism at my new job. I think my therapist is afraid I'll say out loud the negative self bashing rant that runs through my head any time I make a mistake. Or think I might have made a mistake.

As for *everyone should be depressed.* In my case I'm always depressed, so it fits me.

Poet

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?)

Posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 18:49:04

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname, posted by Poet on October 10, 2006, at 18:21:00

Truly, after all this, you want to live forever? What's so bad about dying? It's the only way out and you don't want to stay here forever (do you?). There's this brief flash of light in a dead universe (us!).....and look at what we make of it; there's something to be depressed about.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?)

Posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 18:52:39

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 18:49:04

Maybe suffering (in the sense of 'allowing') is good for the soul.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?)

Posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 19:10:39

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 18:52:39

That Servan-Schreiber book ("Instinct to Heal") says that it's the limbic system that gives us our will to live, a little putt-putt motor that keeps us going… & going… & going… I supposed it empowers those fault-excusing biases.

Antonio Damsio's "Descartes' Error" apparently says the limbic empowers our cognitions, too, but I haven't been able to get through it. (I can't believe it was a best seller; did all the buyers really read it? It seemed like tough going to me.)

When the frontal, cognitive brain becomes unhooked, sorta, from those limbic drives, then you've got problems, I guess. Servan-Schreiber suggests all these various ways to connect them back together.

The Deep Brain Stimulation also supposedly silences overactive areas that interfere with that, I guess. I wish DBS and not Vagal Nerve Surgery were available now.

I can't pretend that this has much to do with self-esteem anymore, except that I've got very little. Sorry.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname

Posted by Jost on October 10, 2006, at 21:17:12

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 16:30:15

hey, guys! you're depressing me. yikes. this is the self-esteem board, not the "life sucks and then you die" board.

brrrrr. (head in hands)

Jost

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname

Posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:31:20

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by pseudoname on October 10, 2006, at 19:10:39

That's a perfectly good excuse, pseudoname (the no self esteem thing).
Talking about myself again, I divided the world up into 2 of everything, so Descartes is bad (unkind to cows) and Pascal is good ('too much light darkens the mind').

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?)

Posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2006, at 21:35:27

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname, posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:31:20

I for one am kicking and screaming trying to beat depression anxiety and all from low self-esteem . It ties in cause I'm getting older don't look sexy etc, and I don't want to die. I want to live and love life like I used to. And this has a lot to do with my self-esteem and how others view me. Love Phillipa ps yes I know it's supposed to be inside what if it's not?

 

How can we cheer up » Jost

Posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:38:19

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname, posted by Jost on October 10, 2006, at 21:17:12

I was just amazed by (for want of a better expression) the strength of character of the classical pianist bloke, and it made me think that it's important that you live a life that you can respect.
Life sucks and then you die? Maybe. But isn't that the first noble truth, the truth of suffering, and the fact of impermanence? Anyway, I don't like those suburban representations of eternal life. I'd feel trapped.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa

Posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:42:59

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?), posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2006, at 21:35:27

PJ, it says something about this society we live in, where only what can be bought and sold is seen as having value. Most previous societies valued the old as having wisdom. In this society the old are right to be fearful. What do they have to look forward to? Party hats at Christmas and outdoor excursions to the hairdresser.
love
Declan

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan

Posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2006, at 22:03:47

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa, posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:42:59

Declan that's depressing. No traveling to Australia to visit you!!!!Love PJ

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa

Posted by Declan on October 11, 2006, at 7:19:01

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan, posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2006, at 22:03:47

That's what it was for my mother.

 

Re: How can we cheer up

Posted by Jost on October 11, 2006, at 17:22:05

In reply to How can we cheer up » Jost, posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:38:19

Perhaps.

but I don't live in the suburbs.

Jost

 

Re: How can we cheer up » Jost

Posted by Declan on October 11, 2006, at 18:49:32

In reply to Re: How can we cheer up, posted by Jost on October 11, 2006, at 17:22:05

I don't imagine you as a country boy. Perhaps you're from the big city?

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan

Posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2006, at 19:47:38

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa, posted by Declan on October 11, 2006, at 7:19:01

What happened to your Mother? Was she ill? Love Phillipa

 

a good excuse » Declan

Posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 21:42:35

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname, posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 21:31:20

> That's a perfectly good excuse, pseudoname

Thanks, Dek. As I think I've mentioned to you before, that's really all I want out of life.

I guess I shouldn't talk about self-esteem here because my problems with it are not any kind of natural deficit. I am moderately confident of my abilities, such as they are.

What looks like my poor self-esteem is, I think, just fiendish, crazy, intrusive, obsessive self-criticism that somehow carries with it the glory of Real Truth. Take that away and I'd be as healthfully biased as the next 41-year-old under-employed twerp.

All I need is an excuse that's good enough to drown out the insane criticism in my head. (It would have to be believable to other people, too.)

 

that pianist bloke » Declan

Posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 21:58:47

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » pseudoname, posted by Declan on October 10, 2006, at 15:46:20

I don't find stories like that pianist with the brain tumor encouraging. The problem is exactly what you say: "in the end he was more or less resigned to handling his lot as well as he could"

I have not handled my lot as well as I could. I *do* not handle it as well as I can. I handle it badly; I do nothing. People do not admire me or write it up in the paper how bravely I bear my troubles. They see me as pathetic, merely. What's left in that life is not satisfying to me as a human being.

The pianist still had something in his life that could give him pleasure; there's a huge gulf between my cancer-free head and his.

 

Re: that pianist bloke » pseudoname

Posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 3:44:58

In reply to that pianist bloke » Declan, posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 21:58:47

Yes, but you have to handle your head. If at the end you feel that, in your view, you handled a difficult situation as well as you could, you may derive from that a measure of self respect. I haven't handled my life well either, but there was a 'weight of inherited sorrow' that I had. Everyone who came near it was damaged, it wasn't just me. Einstellung, maybe, is a word meaning making a concious choice to see things from your own point of view. I think we can do that.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa

Posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 3:49:41

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan, posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2006, at 19:47:38

She died 5 years ago. She developed agitated depression. When that was kinda over she just wanted to go into an 'aged care facility', as we say these days. Then she got cancer and died a couple of years later. She bore the party hats and excursions to the hairdresser with grace. Cancer was a piece of cake compared to the depression.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan

Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2006, at 8:37:19

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa, posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 3:49:41

I'm sorry Declan. :( I had somehow gotten the impression that your mother was still alive.

I hope I never am so gracious as to bear party hats and trips to the hairdresser.

But I honor your mother for her greater forbearance.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan

Posted by Phillipa on October 12, 2006, at 18:59:57

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa, posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 3:49:41

Ahhh Declan I'm sorry. Couldn't they treat the depression? It must have been awful to suffer with depression and then cancer. So sorry. Love Phillipa

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa

Posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 19:11:19

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan, posted by Phillipa on October 12, 2006, at 18:59:57

She had ECT then Effexor. All up she spent 9 months in a psych hospital, then it was off to the aged care facility.
Things had simplified for her by then and she was really just waiting to die.

I tell you one thing I like about myself.......I can comfort people, and I was able to comfort her. I don't suppose I'm so easy to comfort myself.

 

Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Declan

Posted by Phillipa on October 12, 2006, at 20:04:48

In reply to Re: “Everyone should be depressed” (?) » Phillipa, posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 19:11:19

Come on over you can comfort me. And I'll comfort you too. I truly am sorry about your Mom. If it's not rude how old was she when she got depressed and was the ECT any better then. If she was on effexor it can't be that long ago. Love Jan


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