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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 13:39:30
Maybe that's one way to attack this whole thing: where do the expectations come from? Which are distortions? Et cetera?
In my case, having emotions is one of those things -- only "approved" emotions, which of course means very mild, hardly noticeable. The fewer emotions I have, the closer I come to being Acceptable. (I remember the morning after having a miscarriage, my mother telling me -- with great approval -- how well I was handling it. Why? Because I hadn't shown anything.) That, I guess, is proof of WASPishness, huh?
Intellect was the goal, and Knowledge was the currency. Sorry, guys, I really can't remember the order of the Great Battles of the Revolutionary War, nor the names of the Twelve Caesars in order. Guess I fail at that one. That's one even I know I will always fail in. There is no way to know "enough" to win the Intellectual Sweepstakes. I can almost make up for it in trivia, but that only takes you so far.
And, really, Mom got her back up if I knew things she thought she was clever for knowing. She mentioned something once about Madame Necker having a cask built for her body, and I said, "Yeah, it was big enough for three -- herself, her husband, and their daughter Madame de Stael..." Mom got upset, asking how dare I know that, when she had only recently discovered it herself? lol I guess I was only supposed to be her audience.
But that's not because she's bad. That's only because she's also so insecure she needs to have more of The Currency than I do, to make sure she's still OK herself.
Some people pass on the good china, or the family silver? We pass on the family neuroses...
Body? Don't even get me started! Genu valgum, guess I can't leave the house, I'll never be Right Enough. I'll never be attractive enough, because I've got crooked legs. I'm fat. My boobs are too big. My arms are too short. My nose is too big. My hair is too thin. (My hair is too GREY, dammit!)
But you know what? I'm kind. I try, in social situations, to make everyone around me feel OK, to be encouraging to others. I make a huge effort NEVER to say things that would make others feel bad about themselves. I hardly ever abuse pussycats. (Well, depends on your perspective: I know two cats who'd say I abuse them daily...) I'm generous. I try hard.
So, why aren't I ever Good Enough? Why can't I see the "Generous, Kind, Somewhat Informed" part as being worthwhile? Why is it only that I'm not smart enough, haven't done enough with the smarts I do have, too fat, and funny looking? Where did all that come from?
I know it's not real -- I walk down the street and see thin women, and that tells me I'm too fat and need to lose weight. But then I walk down that same street, and the heavy women also tell me that I need to lose weight, because I'm too fat. It's internal, and I know that. And I look at myself in the mirror now and again, and know that it's not being fat so much as lumpy, and that that's my build. And I look around me, and know that getting straight As doesn't mean a damn thing. I know that I know more than most of the people around me -- and *that* makes me feel self-conscious, too! "Something must be wrong with me, that I know these things when no one else does..." The deficit is internal, not external.
I dunno...
Anyone else?
Posted by Jost on September 3, 2006, at 14:48:52
In reply to Where do these expectations come from?, posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 13:39:30
Okay, look, Racer.
1. I didn't even know that Mme Necker (what a name! That's not no French name!) was Mme de Stael's mother,. okay. Not to mention her casket, or that is her casket built for three.
2. Battles of the Revolutionary War? Um the Boston Tea Party? uh, Battle of Bunker Hill? Nathan Hale.... er... Give me Liberty..... er um Madison's wife (gender equality) ...Lousisiana Purchase..... Jacksonian Democracy.... Railroads..... ......... sputter.....
and remember that I got a 4 on the Advanced Placement History Test in HS, after not having done the reading and being sure I had gotten about a 2. 4 ain't great-- but it was good enough for an A at my HS. (whew.)
3. Twelve Caesars? Um Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, and Caesar..... etc.
4. You are smart enough, you have done enough with the smarts you have, you aren't fat (I saw the photo, so don't think I dont' know what I"m talking about), your arms are not too short, I like big noses and specifically am annoyed that I don't have one, I have this little squished down one, your hair probably isn't too thin, but get a perm, or those things, um that they sew in, you are not lumpy, you don't know more than most people around you--oh, I forgot, you do-- and please, do not remind me of my Genu Valgum (why does that always look like "vulgam"?)
Bottom Line:
Racer, you have to come to terms with the fact that you are cursed with self-consciousness. Self-consciousness is a thing like Proteas, on that Island with whoever (Odysseus, I guess). You've got to take hold of it, slippery and powerful and unremitting, and unwilling, and fighting against you, as it may be-- or you can't get home.
You can start by taking one word out of your sentence: the word "Good."
It is not that you are not "good" enough-- it is that you don't feel that you are enough. But you are enough. How can you not be? You know that you're an amazing person. You're got to grapple with that knowledge, and subdue it, so you can be at peace. You have to face it. You have to stop egging proteas on by saying I'm too smart (and therefore coulda been a contender), but not smart enough (or I would always get 100% and not have to study, and not ever worry, except a tiny bit-- sound just a little like your mother's voice, by the way)-- and I'm short and have short arms, and am lumpy, or have genu valgum, or a big nose, and gray hair, and it's thin on top of that and my mother didn't like it that I knew more about Mme Necker than she did, but she also thought I shoulda known whatever she wanted me to know whenever she wanted me to know it, and not know whatever she didn't want me to know whenever she didn't want me to know it......... ad ad ad ad in in in in fin fin fin fin itumitumitummmmmmm.
No one who is not enough could possibly come up with all that. (About which I would say more, except I've said enough -- also have to go, right now)
But I want you to do what I want to do, which is start thinking but I also want to do so many things: a,b,c,d,e,f,..... and I've got all this energy, and over time, I'm going to learn to do them, damn it.
Jost
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2006, at 15:24:41
In reply to Where do these expectations come from?, posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 13:39:30
Do you find yourself thinking of these things often, perhaps in a circular fashion? Are they intractable to your best abilities to outreason them? You say that you recognize that the thoughts are not real.
Might it be helpful to view the thoughts as intrusive obsessions? There is a big difference between thinking "I think I'm defective or Not Good Enough." And thinking "I get these intrusive thoughts that I'm defective or Not Good Enough."
Posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 17:41:20
In reply to Re: Where do these expectations come from? » Racer, posted by Dinah on September 3, 2006, at 15:24:41
>
>
> Might it be helpful to view the thoughts as intrusive obsessions?I don't know if it makes much difference thinking of them this way, but that's sure a part of it. I do get intrusive thoughts, and they are generally obsessive criticisms of myself. Sux to be me, huh?
Theme for today is "Expectations" in a big way. While driving around, trying to find pomegranate juice (don't ask), my husband and I talked about some of this. (It upsets him when I cry. I try to tell him it's better that I DO cry, because it helps get some of it out, but he still gets upset and wants me to stop. And I try not to cry around him, because of it.) He said something about "having dreams and aspirations" for me, and I nearly broke down -- nearly pulled off the highway to have him drive, it was so awful -- because all I could think was that I'd disappoint him.
One thing that I hadn't thought of, though, did come out and I hope I'll hold on to it until my next session. The one and only time I could rely on my mother to offer all the motherly things was when I was depressed, showing self-loathing, upset that I had failed again. If things were going well, she could be vicious -- out of her own pain, not out of malice -- but if I was crying and hating myself and not wanting to live, well, then she would try. Guess she trained me, in one sense, if that makes sense. She was sympathetic, if I failed. I see now that she was also satisfied, in a way, that things were OK, I wouldn't "leave her," or outgrow her, or something. That I'd still need her.
Then again, she's also the one who told me throughout my childhood that I was "too needy," so I guess psychopathology didn't appear fully formed from my forehead, huh?
Thanks, Dinah. I know this is obsessional, and that it can be addressed. We do address it in therapy. (Sometimes I think I shouldn't ever let anyone know who my T is, because they'll think she's no good -- when it's just that I'm not fighting it all hard enough. She is good, she does push me in these directions, but she also doesn't always push when I'm not there, if you know what I mean. I *think* I know what I mean...)
Anyway, thanks.
Posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 17:48:54
In reply to You are Enough. That's enough., posted by Jost on September 3, 2006, at 14:48:52
> Okay, look, Racer.
>
> 1. I didn't even know that Mme Necker (what a name! That's not no French name!) was Mme de Stael's mother,. okay. Not to mention her casket, or that is her casket built for three.
>There's more: she didn't mind dying, she said, but didn't want to decompose. The casket was made of glass, and filled with, I think it was vinegar, to preserve them. After her death, her husband visited her every day until the Terror, when the casket was thrown into the Seine. The Neckers were part of the Affair of the Necklace, which I know nothing about...
*********************************************
Here's something I learned reading your post, though: I'm defensive, and even here I'm trying to prove that I really do know "enough" to be OK. Funny how deeply it's internalized, huh? I'm sorry that I got defensive at you -- but aren't I clever to do it preemptively? ;-}
Wherever they come from, though, I do feel as though I disappoint everyone, that I let everyone around me down. It hit me full force today, out with my husband, who was trying to help by telling me that he has "dreams and aspirations" for me, and that he thinks all this will be much better "once I make a contribution to something and get recognition in the field." Um... All I could think was, "get used to disappointment." (You know, "The Princess Bride" contributes way too much to my internal dialogs...) Seriously, though, part of me was so upset by that, because it was as though there was EVEN MORE I had to struggle to accomplish, when I can barely accomplish clean underwear!
Thank you, Jost. You help me think about things in new ways, and that's always helpful -- even if you don't see it right away...
Posted by Declan on September 3, 2006, at 17:53:21
In reply to Funny thing... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 17:41:20
"The one and only time I could rely on my mother to offer all the motherly things was when I was depressed, showing self-loathing, upset that I had failed again. If things were going well, she could be vicious -- out of her own pain, not out of malice -- but if I was crying and hating myself and not wanting to live, well, then she would try."
Racer, that was brilliant. Some people love vulnerability. You don't though, hey?
Posted by Dinah on September 3, 2006, at 18:59:52
In reply to Funny thing... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 3, 2006, at 17:41:20
> >
> >
> > Might it be helpful to view the thoughts as intrusive obsessions?
>
> I don't know if it makes much difference thinking of them this way, but that's sure a part of it. I do get intrusive thoughts, and they are generally obsessive criticisms of myself.It makes kind of a big difference. Arguing with obsessions, trying to disprove them, just makes them bigger and stronger. Or so I've found. It feeds them.
The nature of the thoughts might be worthwhile to discuss with your therapist.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Phillipa on September 3, 2006, at 22:21:40
In reply to Re: Funny thing..., posted by Dinah on September 3, 2006, at 18:59:52
Racer sounds like your Mother has the low self-esteem and if you're doing bad it makes her feel better about herself. Sick behavior. Love Phillipa ps no criticizing your Mother the behavior and it's just not her that does these thing.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 4, 2006, at 23:21:05
In reply to You are Enough. That's enough., posted by Jost on September 3, 2006, at 14:48:52
whoa.
Can I stick a USB cable in my (big) nose and connect it to my computer before I try to read this post again? i need access to additional hard drive space, a faster processor, and most important- the wikipedia.
I'm so lost. I'm feeling about as wrong as a green pepper smoothie.
make it stop. the whirling sensation! it's cold in here, and why is my bath water turning green? what's that slurping noise? The plumbing sounds like it's crushing gravel. Whoa. getting DIzZY
Posted by Jost on September 5, 2006, at 23:01:46
In reply to Re: You are Enough. That's enough. » Jost, posted by llrrrpp on September 4, 2006, at 23:21:05
Why did I say something weird?
I'd reread it, but it might give a bad dreams.
Wikipedia? Did I say something wikipedian?
Today was weird, because I saw my T for the first time in 5 weeks, then bought some stuff at the Salvation Army-- there was a ton of stuff there, too-- and spent a few hours at the gym.
Not exactly productive-- but a confrontation with a potential co-worker yesterday has me thrown.
Sort of went like this:
Me: When we're working, I get this feeling that you're bored, that you really don't like the job, that you'd rather be somewhere else (etc to that effect)
Co-w: Uh, well has any other co-worker every said they LIKED this job???
Me: well, they seem to be "into" it-- I don't know what they're thinking, but I don't get the feeling that they'd rather be somewhere else
Co-w: I've talked to other people who have done this work, and none ever said anything about being EXCITEd about it, or about WANTING do it.
Me: um, I don't expect this to be exactly a "peak experience" for my co-workers, because it is my work, and not as much their work--although they are an important part of it--but there are people who seem to be able to get into it [I describe a bit about what that comes across like]--
Co-w: This isn't even a "job" to me-- a "job" is when I"m doing [x]-- (her primary career, which different from what I do with her]-- This (ie what she does with me) isn't even a job, to me--I could be sitting in the park doing nothing, or I can come here...and get paid... [her job is involves a lot of physicality] ... and in my job I'm moving, this isn't even concentrating...
Me: Well, have you ever read a book? because that doesn't involve physical movement, but there are books you enjoy, and books where you can't get into them-- and it's the same with this-- for some people there's a type of concentration and focus, and for others, it might be boring...
Co-w: [starts crying] Okay, NOW I don't want to do this job...NOW you've made me uncomfortable with your comments........
~~~This wasn't the exact conversation, but she literally said the things above-- and much more along those lines. Eventually I calmed her down, and she got more into the work, although greatly wanted to ask her to leave-- but would have felt so awful and empty if I had.
She was being unkind and thoughtless-- I can't convey her affect of somewhat anger and somewhat dismissal, and somewhat who- the-hell- do-you-think- you-are-- She clearly had no conception of my having feelings or any idea that I might feel put down by this all-out assault on my hope that people might want, or at least feel into working for, and doing a good job, with me--as if it was obviously the most tedious, boring, empty exercise in the world--
but what she said was so resonant with what I worry about when I work with people-- that this is going through their heads--
I just haven't felt quite myself since she said these things to me. She's also supposed to come tomorrow.
I need to discuss this with my T, obviously-- but it gives me the creeps (to use a phrase) to think about the whole conversation. I guess I should have told her to get lost-- I can't imagine why I didnt. I guess I should-- I don't know why it would be so hard to. Like I need to be able to nullify what she said-- or keep it in front of me, so I won't forget the danger. I don't know.
Jost
Posted by llrrrpp on September 6, 2006, at 7:40:26
In reply to Re; Why? What? » llrrrpp, posted by Jost on September 5, 2006, at 23:01:46
Hey Jost (and others)
Umm, my green pepper smoothie comment was clearly an effect of a seroquelled brain. It's a fair bet that any post after 11:30 est is going to be silly, and if I attempt to fight the seroquel, it's going to get even more ridiculous and uncoordinated.
Jost, you wrote:
"but what she said was so resonant with what I worry about when I work with people-- that this is going through their heads--
I just haven't felt quite myself since she said these things to me. She's also supposed to come tomorrow."
Well, is it possible that she is not a bad person, it's just that the work is not that exciting to her? She wants to be there, otherwise she would not have come. Maybe she's there for the money. Maybe she's there for a break from her other carreer, maybe she's there because she said she would be. I guess my point is that we all do things for different reasons.
When my husband asks me to iron his slacks, I protest. I HATE ironing, but I also know that he only asks me about once a year, and it's a complete emergency. It's my *choice* to do it though. As grumpy as it makes me, I'm still doing it. Maybe my heart and soul is not poured into that work. Maybe my husband feels terrible for asking me (yes, he does-- because the bitc*y look on my face is worth going to the dry cleaners on a weekly basis.) I do it because I know that he doesn't want to look like a fool with two crumples and 3 creases running down the front of his slacks.
He used to get really upset with me when I seemed so grumpy to do this work. I always said- I'm not grumpy with you, I'm grumpy with the iron and your pants. I'm not very good at this, even though I'm better than you.
Jost, I know it's really hard to recognize that your coworkers may get frustrated with the work without it being a judgment against you personally. I think that the statement above is really illuminating. She's crying because she does care about you, and because she's a nice person. It's just that if you force anyone into a corner, they're going to admit that they'd rather be doing something else at the moment.
I hate it when my coworker is bitc*y and mean to me because she's having a bad day (she's a complete narcissist. She's so crazy she doesn't even KNOW she's crazy). I hate it that there are large portions of our project that are completely uninteresting to her, like 2 years of data collection. I hate it that neither one of us is really happy to be working on the 47th draft of the f*cking paper. But I bet she doesn't like it that I am not motivated to enter the data that took 2 years to collect, even though the number punching would only take a day or so. I bet she doesn't like it that I don't ever look on the publisher's website to find out the submission guidelines. Ultimately, we have to accept our coworkers as imperfect flawed humans who may be motivated for the wrong reasons, or not at all.
You've said before that your work is your life. Maybe, but it's not your ENTIRE life! you still have p-babble, and your Sig Other, and your dishes to wash, and your books to read.
((((Jost)))) don't be so hard on yourself. You're so committed to your work that you live inside of it like a bubble. Don't let it tint your entire world. I hope your T gets back soon. That sounds really hard. Until then, be kind to yourself. Keep writing, and keep the status quo at the workplace. sounds like it can't get much worse, but at least they keep on showing up, right?
I like you just fine, even on your bad days ((((Jost)))))
-ll
This is the end of the thread.
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