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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tealady on September 14, 2003, at 4:41:37
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:53:25
Hi Lar,
Just getting around to some replies!
> > OK, so you'd have to cut the amount you are taking..probably no more than one capsule, once or twice a week to start with for a few months.
> > Pounding heart usually signals increased T3 activity to me..may be other causes..anyway..it's a possibility as fish oil supposedly can increase T3 receptor efficiency
>
> That's quite a reasonable explanation. Thanks! Her body will have adapted to whatever her old enzyme efficiency was, and the increase in efficiency with supplemented omega-3s would be indistinguishable from hyperthyroid symptoms.
>
> Indeed, a reduced dose, gradually raised over a lengthy time frame, is a darn good idea.
>
> >Fish oil may be different to flax seed or walnuts (both have omega3)...even just swallow drop of fish oil..or eat some sardines/ salmon 3 times a week is the better way to go?
>
> I definitely think the latter idea is also worth trying.
>
> > > I tried flax seed oil and seemed to get acne, too. I am getting ready to try it again. I didn't keep taking it for long and something else may have broken me out.
> > >
> >
> > No, I think you are onto something there. I think I break out in acne too..really big ones on the forehead side with big yellow ugly heads that leave scars, sigh. Never had anything like this before either!
>
> Have you tried the low and slow dose regime that you suggested, above?Lar, "You anticipate me well" is reciprocal....on he sardines so far, I did go and buy a can of anchovies...yet to try
>
> > It probably can also be caused by other oils ..like I have heard of EPO doing this too...
> Taking EPO and any omega-3 at the same time may block this adverse reaction.I'll give that a go when I restart. So far I have eliminated the pimples.
>
> > One doc said that it means our bodies are taking the wrong pathway again ...dumb body!...and converting the EPO (GLA's) to androgenic hormones...which apparently can happen.Like our bodies decide to make testosterone out of GLA's I think. I wonder why some of us do this ? Anyone any ideas of what we have too much of or are missing?
>
> The omega-3 synergy may solve it. I don't know for sure....I haven't had the problem, so I haven't done the experiment.<g>
> > Similarly it is found that some taking CLA's will convert down some wrong pathway to cause increased insulin resistance and make one prone to diabetesII....haven't tried that one and not going to
I found the reference. Larrian had put it in her newsletter. Larrian was using CLA for quite a while with weight loss and improvement too, so perhaps it s worth trying at least in the short term
----------------
The latest….from LARRIAN REPORTS
The Essential Guide to a Healthy Lifestyle at Any Age
September 5, 2002 -- Volume 3 Issue #8
(ISSN: 1527-3482) -- Larrian Gillespie~ WHY NOT TO USE CLA -
Sad but true. I'm taking CLA off my list of recommended products
in light of the recent studies published this month. As you may
recall, some people reported they GAINED weight on CLA, but there
was no research I could find to explain WHY or HOW, that is, until
two studies came out in humans.It seems CLA has several isomers, or mirror images of itself.
In mice, the Trans10cis12 ( t10c12) form caused weight loss and
improved insulin sensitivity. However, when studied in obese humans,
it did the opposite, causing elevated blood glucose levels, along
with more insulin resistance and lower HDL levels along with mild
weight loss. C9T11, the other isomer, caused weight gain while lowering triglycerides. The choice of response depended upon one's liver
enzymes. So, supplements are NOT the way to go with this fatty
acid. Although tyrosine and P5P may help shift the metabolism
towards the T10c12, that isomer increases insulin resistance.
This is NOT a good thing.
Diabetes Care, 2002(25):1516-1521
Diabetes, 2002(51):2037-2044
-------------------> It can happen, but I think chromium blocks that adverse result. I'll have to get back to you on that. (I'm not at home.....I'm at my ex's place for a few days.}
>That's interesting. I haven't tried chromium, except a tiny amount in some multis I have taken.
> > I do realise,like Lar said, that we have to have a balance of omega3's to omega 6's.
> > http://www.longevinst.org/nlt/EFAs.pdf look at table 2 for decreasing order of omega3's....even butter is not too bad..and that doesn't cause any of these weird side effects..nor did beef lard!
>
> Thanks for the link! Butter has been given a real bad press, and it is way better for you than margarine. In fact, if you can get butter from pastured cattle (and beef from same), you may not even need omega-3 supps.
>Until recently all beef used to be grass fed. The taste has gone strange lately, we have a new distributor to all butchers in the area, and I suspect....
> > So maybe half a dozen almonds, half a dozen walnuts, 2 brazil nuts every day and 1 fish oilcap (or sardines etc) ..about 2 times a week for starters??
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 20, 2003, at 8:43:06
In reply to Oils - CLA » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 14, 2003, at 4:41:37
Jan,
> > > Similarly it is found that some taking CLA's will convert down some wrong pathway to cause increased insulin resistance and make one prone to diabetesII....haven't tried that one and not going to
> I found the reference. Larrian had put it in her newsletter. Larrian was using CLA for quite a while with weight loss and improvement too, so perhaps it s worth trying at least in the short term
> ----------------
> The latest….from LARRIAN REPORTS
> The Essential Guide to a Healthy Lifestyle at Any Age
> September 5, 2002 -- Volume 3 Issue #8
> (ISSN: 1527-3482) -- Larrian Gillespie
>
> ~ WHY NOT TO USE CLA -
> Sad but true. I'm taking CLA off my list of recommended products
> in light of the recent studies published this month. As you may
> recall, some people reported they GAINED weight on CLA, but there
> was no research I could find to explain WHY or HOW, that is, until
> two studies came out in humans.
>
> It seems CLA has several isomers, or mirror images of itself.
> In mice, the Trans10cis12 ( t10c12) form caused weight loss and
> improved insulin sensitivity. However, when studied in obese humans,
> it did the opposite, causing elevated blood glucose levels, along
> with more insulin resistance and lower HDL levels along with mild
> weight loss. C9T11, the other isomer, caused weight gain while lowering triglycerides. The choice of response depended upon one's liver
> enzymes. So, supplements are NOT the way to go with this fatty
> acid. Although tyrosine and P5P may help shift the metabolism
> towards the T10c12, that isomer increases insulin resistance.
> This is NOT a good thing.
> Diabetes Care, 2002(25):1516-1521
> Diabetes, 2002(51):2037-2044
> -------------------Looks like you're right about CLA....
Lipids. 2003 Apr;38(4):377-86.
Modulation of body composition and immune cell functions by conjugated linoleic acid in humans and animal models: benefits vs. risks.
Kelley DS, Erickson KL.
Western Human Nutrition Research Center, ARS, USDA, Department of Nutrition, University of California Davis, Davis, California 95616, USA. dkelley@whnrc.usda.gov
We have reviewed the published literature regarding the effects of CLA on body composition and immune cell functions in humans and in animal models. Results from studies in mice, hamsters, rats, and pigs generally support the notion that CLA reduced depot fat in the normal or lean strains. However, in obese rats, it increased body fat or decreased it less than in the corresponding lean controls. These studies also indicate that t10,c12-CLA was the isomer that reduced adipose fat; however, it also increased the fat content of several other tissues and increased circulating insulin and the saturated FA content of adipose tissue and muscle. Four of the eight published human studies found small but significant reductions in body fat with CLA supplementation; however, the reductions were smaller than the prediction errors for the methods used. The other four human studies found no change in body fat with CLA supplementation. These studies also report that CLA supplementation increased the risk factors for diabetes and cardiovascular disease including increased blood glucose, insulin, insulin resistance, VLDL, C-reactive protein, lipid peroxidation, and decreased HDL. Most studies regarding the effects of CLA on immune cell functions have been conducted with a mixture of isomers, and the results have been variable. One study conducted in mice with the purified c9,t11-CLA and t10,c12-CLA isomers indicated that the two isomers have similar effects on immune cell functions. Some of the reasons for the discrepancies between the effects of CLA in published reports are discussed. Although significant benefit to humans from CLA supplementation is questionable, it may create several health risks in both humans and animals. On the basis of the published data, CLA supplementation of adult human diets to improve body composition or enhance immune functions cannot be recommended at this time.
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by Kacy on September 21, 2003, at 13:30:13
In reply to Re: Oils - CLA » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 20, 2003, at 8:43:06
If CLA changes some blood sugar levels, couldn't that be good for some people?
My blood sugar runs low. It runs on the bottom line of normal, but always exactly on the bottom line. I used to think that was my problem and checked it over the years. Could the weight loss I'm getting from it be a positive change in increasing blood sugar? (5 weeks, 4.5 pounds.) Or, do I misunderstand that article?
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:59:20
In reply to CLA – Good for the goose, not for the gander?, posted by Kacy on September 21, 2003, at 13:30:13
Sorry for the late reply Kacy.
> If CLA changes some blood sugar levels, couldn't that be good for some people?
>
> My blood sugar runs low. It runs on the bottom line of normal, but always exactly on the bottom line. I used to think that was my problem and checked it over the years.I really cannot say... I don't think it is exactly known...that article is about the limit of knowledge at this stage I think
Could the weight loss I'm getting from it be a positive change in increasing blood sugar? (5 weeks, 4.5 pounds.) Or, do I misunderstand that article?
Weight loss is good. I don't think it is due to increasing blood sugar though. If they both happen it's not usually as one caused the other.
I cannot advise you what to do. All I can say, is so far I haven't tried it, but it is in the back of my mind there.
Also Larrian has a free newsletter(like Mercola etc)..I got the article out of that.
She herself took CLA for ..well over a year before that article came out.
I went and read thru soem of her old posts
I'll copy some out here if its OK?(not female only advice?)...
*CLA is discussed in the Gladiator Diet..and is fine for women. I would only recommend you use the Tonalin product, as that is the one the studies were done on in Sweden that showed the results. And no..you can't just use sunflower oil as this is an extract of it without a lot of the polyunsaturated fatty acids that can increase your risk of breast cancer.*...re CLA and tyrosine, take them together. Ideal time for all meds for women is noon, as that is when you have the best estradiol/cortisol ratio for absorption and effectiveness
my comment___(I actually found it better to take my tyrosine in the morning, but for women , I guess you try both times..and if you need it twice a day..these are the times)
*Re CLA...the dose is 3.2gm a day...any more doesn't offer any additional benefit.
*When you don't have a gallbladder you should be taking bromelain and papain with meals....now I recommend you take the CLA etc after a meal....I take all my stuff at noon.....so if you have taken those enzymes with your meal you should be fine.
* 3/28/2001
I take 3500 CLA plus 500mg tyrosine a day ( cleared up the small pimples on my back due to thyroid changes ) and 20mg P5P a day....I am noticing even MORE improvement in the third month of therapy..so I guess this is a slow starter for women but the tyrosine and P5P have made a significant difference*4/27/2001 (4 mths on CLA..Larrian)
Yes, I do...and I am still losing weight, about 2 pounds a month, with just adding the tyrosine, P5P and CLA to my diet plan.*http://forums.about.com/n/find/findRedir.asp?webtag=ab-thyroid&mg=C4CD21F0-31A0-4EA1-97ED-5BE6C70782B1
So I read EPO helps PMS. I've only been taking it about a week, but already my moods have been great. and I'm finally sleeping through the night, without waking up twice a night. The only draw back is my face is breaking out in pimples more than usual. I'm going to try this for at least one whole cycle to see if this can help me.
It's the good news/bad news situation....it contains linolenic and linoleic acids....and the acne response is from converting the linoleic acid into an androgenic compound, much like CLA can cause insulin resistance etc. You can get the same element in dairy, nuts, olives without the possibility of rancidity in the primrose oil...which can affect liver function as well.So you can see , she was losing weight on it..and took it for some time.
Personally, if it was me and I was on it and liked it, I'd just stay on it for medium term ..like 6 months or so ,keep a watch on blood pressure..then reevaluate. (not advice, the informed decision is yours)If I was taking it and I stopped losing weight on it, or rate of weight loss slowed down noticeably, I would drop it immediately.
Insulin resistance is caused by soo many things!!!Good luck, Jan
Posted by Kacy on September 27, 2003, at 6:59:16
In reply to Re: CLA – Good for the goose, not for the gander? » Kacy, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:59:20
Thanks for clipping those sections out for me, Jan. I gained two pounds back. It could be temporary–that monthly fluctuation. I don't usually add that classic water weight and have never noticed any pattern for the months it does happen, so I don't know yet if that is it. I'll find out soon. I'm going to keep taking CLA for a while.
This is the end of the thread.
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