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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chihuahua on February 2, 2009, at 4:42:03
Hello folks.
For 35 years, I have been taking ADs which have proved lifesaving for me.
30 years ago I took Nardil for 3 years, until a well meaning Psychiatrist was able to convince me that MAO inhibiters were"BAD". The Nardil had been successfully addressing the 4 aspects of my illness. That is :----
1. lassitude.__nardil gave lots of energy without agitation 2.compulsive eating.___nardil totally normalised my eating.
3.inability to get to sleep._ i needed less sleep, but it was good sleep with nardil.
4. Suicidal depression._Rare breakthro's short lived.
Having been denied access to MAO inhibiters, my subsequent health consisted of----a dull life, without my career and
30 years on every available serotoninergic ( large doses were needed), I am still alive, but I am obese as a result of abnormal eating ( my own disordered eating together with abnormal
hunger from various serotonergics).
My life has been mainly spent in bed. Correctly, my son says that I don't have a life".JOY OF JOYS!!! I found a medical practitioner who prescibed Nardil for me, one month ago.
DISAPPOINTMENT EXTRAORDINAIRE!!!!! THIS IS NOT THE MARVELLOUS MEDICATION THAT I EXPERIENCED 30 YEARS AGO.
I am eating like a Prader Willie. I have no energy.
To my surprise, I learned that the only Nardil available since 2003 is a most INFERIOR compounding of the phenelzine sulphate. When Pfizer took over Parke Davis, (whose original formulation of the phenelzine sulphate was superb), Pfizer allowed company in France to manufacture Nardil. This company did not have the mixing " paddles"needed , so they convinced the FDA that the only change to the tablet would be exclusion of "inactive",
unimportant components of the original tablet.Even the medical profession and pharmacists have been kept in the "DARK" about this degrading new formulation of Nardil.
All the pharmacists know is that Nardil now must be kept in the fridge because it's integrity is fragile.
Does anyone else out there remember the success of the original formulation of nardil? If you have never yet typed in " nardil" into your search engine , you may be interested to find
many others like myself.I would appreciate hearing from anyone who knows if the little "Davids"in this world have a chance of taking on the Goliaths such as Pfizer. Will we ever see the original Nardil formulation again?
Posted by myco on February 2, 2009, at 11:22:51
In reply to I speak out in defence of MAO Inhibiter, Nardil., posted by Chihuahua on February 2, 2009, at 4:42:03
> All the pharmacists know is that Nardil now must be kept in the fridge because it's integrity is fragile.
Hi,
I dont have experience with the old nardil but the new works fine for me. I didnt know you had to keep this in the fridge. Is this a proven fact? I believe my pharmacy keeps it on the shelf but its always worked well for me, but again I can't compare. I know the monograph in the usa and canada says pretty much room temp (15 to what? 25 or 30 celsius I think). Although I did notice the monograph for the australian brand says cold temps (like fridge). I have noticed that sometimes my refills "feel different", some better than others..not sure if this is a 15mg +- 5% issue or not or just placebo effect.
keep smilin
Posted by bleauberry on February 2, 2009, at 16:50:13
In reply to I speak out in defence of MAO Inhibiter, Nardil., posted by Chihuahua on February 2, 2009, at 4:42:03
For months after the Nardil reformulation was done, this topic was huge all over every forum around the world in every country. You are probably only one of thousands worldwide who have experienced a different nardil.
The new nardil still works good for some people who took the original. It caused relapse in many others. Results from batch to batch are suspect. Scientific forum people claim it is the absorption rate of Nardil that is now screwed up. Some of the inert fillers it used to have actually had a very important role in the absorption of the active ingredient. Some people claim that doses considerably higher than what they used to take will work, but that side effects become intolerable at those doses.
Marplan might be a decent substitute? It's hard to find any negative comments on Marplan, maybe because it is so rarely used, or maybe because it is a good med? I only mention it because chemically it is more similar to Nardil than Parnate is.
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on February 3, 2009, at 1:42:25
In reply to I speak out in defence of MAO Inhibiter, Nardil., posted by Chihuahua on February 2, 2009, at 4:42:03
I had used Nardil for severe TRD/anxiety with success for over ten years until 2003. I'm convinced there was something that changed.
Posted by myco on February 3, 2009, at 10:55:16
In reply to Nardil did change, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on February 3, 2009, at 1:42:25
> I had used Nardil for severe TRD/anxiety with success for over ten years until 2003. I'm convinced there was something that changed.
hey,
Any ideas or theories on what changed captain?
thnx
Posted by Chihuahua on February 3, 2009, at 18:42:26
In reply to Re: Nardil did change » CaptainAmerica1967, posted by myco on February 3, 2009, at 10:55:16
> > I had used Nardil for severe TRD/anxiety with success for over ten years until 2003. I'm convinced there was something that changed.
>
> hey,
>
> Any ideas or theories on what changed captain?
>
> thnxI typed "Nardil" into Google, and found the explanation for the
deterioration in the clinical performance of the drug( nardil , which had been available prior to take over of Parke- Davis by Pfizer in early 2000's. There is a group called " Nardil Problems Activism".
The site gives a list of Contents of Old Vs. New Formulation of Nardil.
Basically it seems to get back to big business farming off to an ill-equipped manufacturer the production of Nardil which was never a big money spinner for the wealthy drug manufacturing company.
No decent studies were done to test the clinical efficacy of the altered ,cheaper formulation of Nardil.
The sad part about it is that most of the medical profession is not aware of the change in formulation.
Some physicians believe that " inert" ingredients should not alter a medication's behaviour.
WE ARE LIVING PROOF THAT IT CAN.If you are unable to access the Nardil problems site, I would be happy to talk some more about it.
Chihuahua.
Posted by djmmm on February 4, 2009, at 13:22:25
In reply to Re: Nardil did change » CaptainAmerica1967, posted by myco on February 3, 2009, at 10:55:16
> > I had used Nardil for severe TRD/anxiety with success for over ten years until 2003. I'm convinced there was something that changed.
>
> hey,
>
> Any ideas or theories on what changed captain?
>
> thnxseveral of the "excipients" were changed-- including materials used for the binding of the medication (pressed in pill form), some excipients that induced an allergic response in some patients were removed, including the sugar, shellac (coating), talc, wheat, and corn starch. The functions of these excipients vary, and have been replaced by newer, and less expensive products.
Posted by Chihuahua on February 4, 2009, at 19:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil did change, posted by djmmm on February 4, 2009, at 13:22:25
> > > I had used Nardil for severe TRD/anxiety with success for over ten years until 2003. I'm convinced there was something that changed.
> >
> > hey,
> >
> > Any ideas or theories on what changed captain?
> >
> > thnx
>
> several of the "excipients" were changed-- including materials used for the binding of the medication (pressed in pill form), some excipients that induced an allergic response in some patients were removed, including the sugar, shellac (coating), talc, wheat, and corn starch. The functions of these excipients vary, and have been replaced by newer, and less expensive products.I have my suspicions that the operative words above are " LESS EXPENSIVE PRODUCTS " , rather than " REMOVAL OF SOME EXCIPIENTS THAT CAUSED AN ALLERGIC RESPONSE IN SOME PATIENTS".
I would be interested to know how many of these "ALLERGIC" people are now happily taking the NEW FORMULA NARDIL, compared to the number of people who were functioning well on the OLD NARDIL FORMULATION , but have had their lives ruined by the altered absorption and bioavailability of Nardil.Maybe someone has had the priviledge of seeing studies that were done before "THEY" decided to make such big changes to Nardil formula.
I have spoken to several very practical medical practitioners,who have worked at the "coal face " for decades . Most agree that so- called" inert" fillers in medicines do make a difference to drug action within the human body.
Is it all just a futile exercise. Will we ever see the OLD NARDIL formula again?
Whatever the case, I appreciate very much the opportunity you have all given me to chat on the subject. I would be frustrated had I not been able to verify and understand my observations on the subject of Nardil.
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 10, 2009, at 11:16:37
In reply to Re: Nardil did change » djmmm, posted by Chihuahua on February 4, 2009, at 19:47:51
That's a topic that I used often here...the new formulation of the Nardil. It's one of my oldest post on the psycho-babble, I given the link the the website where you can find informations about the reformulation of the Nardil and some comparaisons about the newer Canadian version VS the USA version and the OLD GOOD nardil version.
I also post some links about studies comparing the newer nardil VS the old nardil and also one studie about the Canadian newer version VS the USA newer version of the Nardil... Just use the search option here and Nardil new formulation and you will see...
I'm sure the new Nardil is not working as good as the old one...more than 70 000 people around the world use it before the reformulation in 2003...I wonder how many people had to switch for something else like Marplan or Parnate???
One thing is sure, ERFA is the compagny in the Canada who produce the newer Nardil...the Canadian Nardil seem to be more stable than the USA ones...I ask my pharmacist and he said that ERFA never recall batch or lot of defect Nardil from Erfa...but in the States, it's seem to occur often...The UK Nardil and the Australian one seem also to be more good than both Canadian and USA version...
I don't think we will see the good old version of the Nardil again...the market of the AD's drugs is very limited for the MAOI's, even if we see newer products like the EMSAM patch. In fact, nobodies seem to care and ask about WHY the compagny who developp the EMSAM patch decide to use the Selegiline and not the phenelzine (Nardil active ingredient)...it will be a more usefull product...but well...who can afford to paid 500$ a month for 30 small patch ???? Nobodies...
Posted by Chihuahua on February 11, 2009, at 0:49:09
In reply to Re: Nardil did change » Chihuahua, posted by Vincent_QC on February 10, 2009, at 11:16:37
Thank you Vincent_QC for your reply to my prior posting about the changed efficacy of the new Nardil formulation ( since 2003 ).
This is my 6th week on the " new formulation " nardil. After not being allowed to access nardil for 30 years, I am coming to terms with the initial disappointment in the " new ' nardil's performance, comparative to the nardil formulation as it was before 2003.I am now appreciating that I can access nardil, even though formulation is not as good as before. Nardil is still the best antidepressant for me. My mind is alert. I am genuinely happy.
I am able to organise the paperwork which before nardil, was just boxes of mangled garble.I hope I am not violating any rules of this chat line, but I wonder whether someone out there has found a suitable fix for "winding down" of an evening.
My medical practitioner has given me Temazepam, which doesn't seem to do anything for winding down on nardil.
I am eating a lot on the new nardil.---any suggestions???
Thanks for being there .
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 12, 2009, at 5:13:43
In reply to Re: Nardil did change » Vincent_QC, posted by Chihuahua on February 11, 2009, at 0:49:09
> Thank you Vincent_QC for your reply to my prior posting about the changed efficacy of the new Nardil formulation ( since 2003 ).
> This is my 6th week on the " new formulation " nardil. After not being allowed to access nardil for 30 years, I am coming to terms with the initial disappointment in the " new ' nardil's performance, comparative to the nardil formulation as it was before 2003.
>
> I am now appreciating that I can access nardil, even though formulation is not as good as before. Nardil is still the best antidepressant for me. My mind is alert. I am genuinely happy.
> I am able to organise the paperwork which before nardil, was just boxes of mangled garble.
>
> I hope I am not violating any rules of this chat line, but I wonder whether someone out there has found a suitable fix for "winding down" of an evening.
>
> My medical practitioner has given me Temazepam, which doesn't seem to do anything for winding down on nardil.
>
> I am eating a lot on the new nardil.---any suggestions???
>
> Thanks for being there .Hi ;-)
Hummm you mean insomnia at night?...Ask your PDoc about a little dose of Seroquel, the regular version, to avoid next day sedation...but be aware than all the histamine antagonist pop-up after a little while, well on me...I'm now at 50mg at bedtime, the three weeks I had on that dosage was ok, mean that I sleep more than 6 hours by night, but since this week, 50mg seem to be not effective a lot, so I return to my 4 hours of sleep by night...so I will have to increase my dosage... I know that some people can also get some Trazodone, but my PDoc always told me it was dangerous to developp a serotonin syndrome... OTC drug of (Histamine antagonist) type also exist, but they normally don't be a lot helpfull...
For the food craving, that's normal...all the AD's do this...some of them are worst...That strange that people on that board always write that the Nardil make them eat more and gain weight...since I never get this side-effect on it. In fact, I loose some weight on it at the time...probably because I was a lot more active at daytime than now...I was walking more than 2 hours a day before...now I can barely move from my bed to my desktop chair because I have NO energy at all...
Some people claim that the new nardil is ok also...they don't see the difference. For me, I know that the Nardil never work on my social phobia...even on my depression or anything else, except that I was able to reduce my Rivotril intake by half...and I remember that I was so aphatic on it and without any energy that I always had a cup of coffee in my hands to stay awake...
One suggestion...I try the Parnate...and I see some effectives effects on the social phobia on it...they appear faster than the ones on the Nardil and at a dosage relatively more low...around 30mg...If you don't mind side-effects on your blood pressure and hypotension orthostatic, it can be a better choice than the new Nardil...The Marplan also exist if you stay in the USA...another good MAOI...
That's was just my advise and my experience...but I never find the nardil to be more effective than another AD's for my social anxiety and the depression...
This is the end of the thread.
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