![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 0:30:53
I haven't been posting often and sometimes don't read entries on this site for many months. Sometimes I just read for information and most times I don't post because of time constraints inherent in my life. But I am having thoughts about several things I have seen on this website and I wanted to see how others feels about my observations.
One is that I am amazed at the amount of medications, combinations of meds and research that is done by so many of you (you sound like drug researchers using the lingo and no one understanding what the hell you are saying, except other 'researchers' you converse with) to try and come up with a plan for what meds you think you should be on. On one hand it is a good thing to educate ourselves and be informed consumers... on the other hand I don't know how much it is helping unless your doctor goes along with you and prescribes what you feel is the 'best' medication. I wouldn't think most doctors would prescribe meds they are not comfortable with since the potential for side effects is so great, not to mention the risk of liability.
Secondly, what I see in so many posts is nothing I would attribute to clinical depression...on the contrary, I am amazed at the amount of knowledge, energy and perseverance put into finding a medication that will help make you feel better. To me, many posters(?) sound like they are functioning fairly well, at least intellectually as compared with others during depressive crises.
When I was in the throws of my depression there was no analytical processes happening, no ability to tell my doctor what meds I thought would work for me, just utter helplessness and faith in him to come up with the right medications and me believing (albeit unconsciously) that he will help me through this nightmare called depression. Blind faith perhaps, but I still believe that finding a good doctor holds the key for long term management of depression
So are we talking more about depression here or the inability to cope in a chaotic world where we have so little control in our lives (I feel like this) that we look, we research, we try and control which medications we take, without concern for side effects, interactions, long term effects and basically agree to become a human guinea pig for the sake of feeling better. We all are trying to feel better that is our plight, but at what cost to ourselves????
I have big concerns about what everyone is doing to themselves today (immediate needs) and not looking at long term side effects. They will emerge in a number of years of usage, too late for those so eager to try every drug and every combination of meds available for the various diagnoses, too numerous to list. Forget about knowing which med caused what side effect(s), how about spending an equal amount of time on researching which organs will fail due to metabolism in the liver and/or kidneys. I'm sure this knowledge is available and should be part of the process of evaluating which meds will be effective for depression. If this is not done at the outset, then the research is incomplete.
It is starting to sound like we too smart for our own good...
Time will tell...Thanks for listening..
Posted by Tomatheus on July 21, 2006, at 3:15:31
In reply to Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 0:30:53
Stargazer,
I think you made some valid points, but I also can't help but feel offended by some of what you've written.
I can't speak for others who post here, but I can say that when I'm feeling severely depressed, I don't feel coherent enough to write or post anything at all. When I'm feeling either moderately depressed or mildly depressed (usually mildly depressed) is when I write and post my messages.
When I'm not taking any meds or taking meds that only help me slightly (which covers most of the time that I've spent posting here), the severity of my depressive symptoms varies considerably -- sometimes even during the course of a day. Are there days when I feel so depressed (during the entire course of the day) that I can hardly put words together to form a sentence? Of course! Are those the days that I post? Hell no! When I'm feeling that way, I'm lying down in bed. I don't have the kind of energy to even read messages here, let alone write them.
If I'm feeling well enough to read and respond to the posts here, I usually write using a style that is consistent with my educational background. Most of the time, I try to make my posts as easy to understand as possible. However, if for example, I'm writing to someone who's been studying to be a psychiatrist, I may use a more "technical" writing style.
By the way -- and this goes for everybody -- if I ever use a term that you're not familiar with or write something that sounds too confusing, please ask me to clarify what I've written. It is *never* my intention to confuse anybody. I do, however, like to respond with as much helpful information as I can.
I agree with your observation that some of those with depressive disorders who post here are going to sound like they're functioning better than others. Generally speaking, those who post highly coherent messages with lots of information are probably doing better than those who have difficulty posting much of anything -- at least at the time that they're writing their messages.
But one *cannot* assume that those who are capable of posting coherent and highly informative messages *some of the time* are not suffering from a real psychiatric disorder. And one certainly cannot assume that just because a post reflects a relatively high level of education that the person who made that post cannot be experiencing depression or another psychiatric illness. When one reads a Psycho-Babble post (or anything else, for that matter), all the reader can "see" is the final product. But there are some things that the reader cannot (usually) see, including the writer's exact state of mind, the amount of time it took the writer to compose the message, and the extent to which the message was edited.
As I said, the severity of my depressive symptoms can vary consideribly from day to day, or sometimes even over the course of a day. Some days, I feel so depressed all day that I can't get out of bed. On other days, I may feel severely depressed for just part of the day and moderately depressed for the rest of the day. And yes, believe it or not, there are sometimes days when I feel just mildly depressed and not incredibly far from "normal" for most of the day (usually following nights of partial sleep deprivation). Don't you think that I -- more than anybody -- would want to feel only mildly depressed (if not better) all of the time? If you want to call my illness an "inability to cope in a chaotic world," I guess I can't stop you from saying that, but I do feel offended by what you said, and I find it to be highly inaccurate. I would *love* more than anything to be a full participant in this "chaotic world" that you refer to, just as I was when I was in remission and before my depressive symptoms began to surface more than six years ago. There was a time when I was in remission, and even though I felt that life was often challenging and stressful, I enjoyed the things in life that I knew I was supposed to be enjoying. And no, I was not hypomanic. I know the difference. I've been there, too.
The rest of my responses to your post are below...
> One is that I am amazed at the amount of medications, combinations of meds and research that is done by so many of you (you sound like drug researchers using the lingo and no one understanding what the hell you are saying, except other 'researchers' you converse with) to try and come up with a plan for what meds you think you should be on. On one hand it is a good thing to educate ourselves and be informed consumers... on the other hand I don't know how much it is helping unless your doctor goes along with you and prescribes what you feel is the 'best' medication. I wouldn't think most doctors would prescribe meds they are not comfortable with since the potential for side effects is so great, not to mention the risk of liability.
First of all, the conversations that I have with my doctor are my business and my business *only*. If I wanted to state specifically which of my "ideas" my doctor has gone along with and which ones he hasn't gone along with, I would have done so in previous posts.
But in response to what you wrote, I will say (with no offense meant toward my doctor) that the only treatment plan that *ever* worked for me was one that I came up with after doing my own research. Unfortunately, the treatment that I'm referring to is no longer available to me. So, even though the research that I did is no longer helping me, it did for a while, so, yes, I do think that my research was worthwhile.
> Blind faith perhaps, but I still believe that finding a good doctor holds the key for long term management of depression
Not if none of the treatments that your doctor can prescribe to you will work. I think that someone here once said that a master chef is only as good as his (or her) ingredients. I believe that the same is true of psychiatrists with respect to medications and other treatment options.
> So are we talking more about depression here or the inability to cope in a chaotic world where we have so little control in our lives (I feel like this) that we look, we research, we try and control which medications we take, without concern for side effects, interactions, long term effects and basically agree to become a human guinea pig for the sake of feeling better. We all are trying to feel better that is our plight, but at what cost to ourselves????
>
> Forget about knowing which med caused what side effect(s), how about spending an equal amount of time on researching which organs will fail due to metabolism in the liver and/or kidneys.Once again, I can't speak for others here, but I have spent some time researching how various meds affect the functioning of the liver, kidneys, and other organs. I've also spent some time researching how my *illness* (which, in my case, I believe is caused at least in part by the abnormally high production of MAO-A) affects liver functioning. In one post that I wrote a few weeks ago, I even suggested that taking a particular medication at an abormally high dose could significantly increase one's risk of liver failure. So, I don't think that it's the case at all that I haven't researched and/or am not concerned about the long-term effects of taking meds. But the adverse effects (both short term and long term) of taking no meds should not be ignored, either.
> It is starting to sound like we too smart for our own good...
>
> Time will tell...Thanks for listening..Yes, I do agree. Time will tell.
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 6:58:40
In reply to Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 0:30:53
Depression is often a disorder of focus and concentration rather than one of absolute cognitive inability. Intense interest and motivation - like trying to save one's own life - often provides transient and limited increases in these areas of function. The results of these brief and narrow cognitive bursts can deceive others into concluding that this level of function is global. People with the illness, such as yourself, are just as capable of being fooled as those without the illness. Know, however, that everyone has their threshold of impairment. For the two months prior to last week, I would have been unable to have composed a post such as this. I was cognitively too slowed and anergic among other things.
- Scott
Posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 8:10:45
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses... » stargazer, posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 6:58:40
Thanks for clarifying some of what I said, I know what you are saying. I wish I had the focus or understanding of what is being said at times and feel that perhaps I'm not doing enough for myself to beat this thing. I have had it for so long I just get tired of knowing what to do and some of the posts I can understand, many baffle me and require too much focus and concentration for me to follow. I'm not sure because this is what I have struggled with my whole life. At times I felt that I was dyslexic (ADHD) but other times I feel like I am being too hard on myself. So my perspective on how I'm doing is skewed. I do have memory problems, big time, and have never been able to validate this. I have even thought about neuropsychiatric testing, but have never done it, again part of my inability to follow through with things. Many of you have probably had this done? What were the results? I know I have trouble following many conversations and feel like I have nothing to contribute. I think there was a time I felt smart and able to learn new things but this has not happened for many years with any degree of predictability. As a matter of fact, it seems like my ability to learn new information and process it is gone. I even thought about being tested for early Alzheimers because of my memory problems. My ability to juggle multiple priorities is gone too. This is why I took a leave of absense from my job. My plan was to resign but my MD said to take a leave. Even though I strongly believe it is the job, not the depression, I cannot tell for sure. I have the inability to make decisions and come across extremely indecisive most of the time. I did not fight his interpretation of things because I do not trust my ability to analyze these things. And unless you know of a test for depression, ADD, anxiety, etc we have to go by our feelings, thought processes, etc. to help with the selection of meds. My MD has said just forget about the diagnoses and so we focus on trying to increase or decrease what I'm currently on and perhaps adding a new med. When I look at all of my symptoms, I could have more than 3 or 4 diagnoses, all requiring different medications. That's when it gets too overwhelming for me to understand and be the "expert" in my own treatment. And I'm afraid of what all of these meds are doing to my thoughts, feelings,and physical health.
So although I may seem like I'm minimizing other's suffering, it's probably my choice of words, the way I put together my thoughts that can get me into trouble and give the wrong impression to others. I used to not voice my feelings, have any opinions because I was so afraid of saying the wrong thing, which I seemed to always do. This was one of the earliest symptoms I can remember, beginning as a child. Was that early symptoms of depression or my personality? I also was extremely shy, hated attention, super sensitive to rejection. was that normal or the early signs of depression, aka neurological imbalence. Should they have treated me then if the medications were available that we have today?
I have questions like this all the time and have learned to minimize my symptoms or feelings just because I'm not in the depths of depression. Yes, I want to feel better but although there have been glimpses of feeling better "normal, confident" these feelings have been fleeting and seem to not be sustainable with any treatment with any regularity.
I think my basic personality is defective (genetic vs dysafunctional family, they look good but I know are messed up) and personality can't be changed without lots of therapy, along with medication. Right?
What a struggle this is for me. I'm so glad you have to ability to articulate and analyze everything that you can. It amazes me but I still feel that it comes across to me as havingan amazing ability to function as compared to me, even with educational level factored in.
Thanks for hearing me. Any thoughts are certainty not meant to be personal or demeaning, just my observations, feelings, again...can they be trusted or does my depression cause them to be inaccurate or communicated inaccurately? I want to be able to share here and not feel intimidated by those who know so much more than me. I'm not stupid but feel I am at times.
Current cocktail: Marplan 30, Lamictal 100/100, new addition Risperdal 0.25 with SE of dizziness w hypotension.
Posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 8:56:58
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 8:10:45
Hi.
Here's a dose of reality. There is no way I can read your entire post. It is just too long. My limit is about 6 sentences today. I can perhaps skim a little more. Anyway...
> Thanks for clarifying some of what I said, I know what you are saying. I wish I had the focus or understanding of what is being said at times and feel that perhaps I'm not doing enough for myself to beat this thing.
One of the worst lies that depression tells us is that we are not good enough. It does this in many ways, but one of its cruelest strategies is to have us compare ourselves to others while filtering out the good stuff and magnifying the bad stuff. This is a cognitive distortion.
> I have had it for so long I just get tired of knowing what to do and some of the posts I can understand, many baffle me and require too much focus and concentration for me to follow.
Welcome to the club. You are not alone.
> I'm not sure because this is what I have struggled with my whole life.
Me too. I always wondered why I never liked reading as an adolescent. The only book I read cover-to-cover was "Jaws". It was just too much of a chore. My concentration or focus was impaired, and it was a true labor to get through an entire paragraph.
After having skimmed through the rest of your post, I see that you have thought very seriously and honestly about your current and historical experiences, and shared those thoughts here with courage. I think you have hit the targets that most of us have also seen hit by this ravaging set of illnesses. I, for one, appreciate your candor. It is not something I myself display very often, and I admire others when I see them doing it. I think everyone learns and profits from such experiences.
Please don't see yourself as weak or behind some sort of learning curve. I feel the same way sometimes. Again, this is a cognitive distortion produced by the depression. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, and your strengths show, whether you recognize them or not, so please continue to post if you have the inclination.
- Scott
Posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 9:36:07
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses... » stargazer, posted by SLS on July 21, 2006, at 8:56:58
Thank you Scott, your posting meant alot to me since I can so easily be misunderstood and come across as minimizing others suffering. I'm sure its some kind of defense mechanism learned many years ago.
That's it for now. I have exhausted myself today with my lengthy posts. I'm going to take my little doggie (80#, hardly little)for a swim in the rain. Now she is onehappy camper, doesn't know the meaning of depression and she helps me out tremendously.
It's nice to have the time since I'm out of work to join the PsychoBabble discussions. It's been helpful and real. Later...
SG
Posted by Phillipa on July 21, 2006, at 12:31:11
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by stargazer on July 21, 2006, at 9:36:07
I agree with Scott. Sitting at the computer is all the energy I have. And right now feel like I'm falling asleep only been up 21/2 hours. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:25:47
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses... » stargazer, posted by Phillipa on July 21, 2006, at 12:31:11
Depression seems to be a very different thing for different people. There are, of course, certain core similarities, but I don't think its fair to make assumptions based on the presence of absence of certain symptoms.
Some people have psychomotor retardation for instance, whereas I do not. Lack of energy has never been a component of my problem, nor was it when my mother, granfather, or great grandmother were depressed.
In my books, the emotions, cognition and energy are all separate things.
There have been people in history who could be extremely articulate yet extrodinarily depressed at the same time.
Sylvia Plath comes to mind.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on July 21, 2006, at 20:27:24
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:25:47
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 21:12:07
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:25:47
"The pill you took to kill the thin papery feeling,
Worked too well and swabbed you clear
Of your loving associations."
Linkadge
Posted by Karen44 on July 21, 2006, at 23:30:40
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by linkadge on July 21, 2006, at 18:25:47
> Depression seems to be a very different thing for different people. There are, of course, certain core similarities, but I don't think its fair to make assumptions based on the presence of absence of certain symptoms.
>
> Some people have psychomotor retardation for instance, whereas I do not. Lack of energy has never been a component of my problem, nor was it when my mother, granfather, or great grandmother were depressed.
>
> In my books, the emotions, cognition and energy are all separate things.
>
> There have been people in history who could be extremely articulate yet extrodinarily depressed at the same time.
>
> Sylvia Plath comes to mind.
>
>
> Linkadge
>You are so right. I am so depressed, and yet no one at work realizes how depressed I am. It is taking me longer to get reports done, and so I spend more time after 5 p.m. trying to get them done. But I act cheerful, etc. to everyone and hide how I feel very well. In fact the psychiatrist I have been working with doing therapy as well as med's wanted me to agree to be honest about if I was depressed, becuase he is aware of how well I can hide how I feel. I was 99.99% honest with him, and when I was not, I always told him after the fact.
Karen
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on July 22, 2006, at 10:58:26
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by Karen44 on July 21, 2006, at 23:30:40
Hey folks,
Well I came to babble because my GPs didn't actually manage to link my extreme tiredness to celexa use, despite my complaints to them. They just sent me for blood tests. I had to educate myself about the 'true' side effects of celexa, mostly using this website. And I think we discuss side effects (even long term side effects) just as often as we discuss meds. For instance, there have been some huge threads on SSRI induced apathy, something which is very real, but which doctors don't really acknowledge yet.
Virginia Woolf and Winston Churchill have also managed to accomplish great things while depressed.
I agree a great pdoc is invaluable - unfortunately for us in the UK they are extremely hard to find, if you even get referred to one in the first place! Most people with depression get treated by a GP, who really isn't the best choice for managing depression.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by fuchsia on July 22, 2006, at 22:04:58
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by Meri-Tuuli on July 22, 2006, at 10:58:26
> Virginia Woolf and Winston Churchill have also managed to accomplish great things while depressed.
I got the impression that Virginia Woolf had trouble writing at her most depressed.
'You see I can't even write this properly'...
Posted by Declan on July 23, 2006, at 2:56:29
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by fuchsia on July 22, 2006, at 22:04:58
She spent months in bed, and when she was manic heard the birds speaking in Greek.
But there must have been inbetween times too, both up and down.
In her letters you can easily see the hypomanic side.
I suppose she wrote much less when depressed.
Posted by laima on July 23, 2006, at 20:17:58
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by fuchsia on July 22, 2006, at 22:04:58
As an artist, I will have to enthusiastically agree with you. During the worst moments of mood disfunction, NOTHING gets done. Period. No offense to anyone, and I drift away from the topic, but I think the persistent myth of "depressed artist is so creative and brilliant" as a general idea is an offensive, outdated, and false stereotype- plain fiction. It's embarressing, and the persistence of the myth ends up with people having preconceived notions about "artists". It's embarressing to even say, "I'm an artist" thanks to these stereotypes. I know many others in my area- I hear ditto. In reality, during a severe spell of depression, creativity, energy, enthusiasm, and concentration shrivel, and even the most formerly exciting creative projects, whether or not already planned or completed, appear foolish, uninteresting, and trivial. The bed, couch, tv- are far more appealing- if even they can be managed. I don't mean "depressed", when one can still somehow plod along, I am talking about severely DEPRESSED.Once, Georgia O'Keefe became depressed to such an extent she swore off painting forever- this lasted 2 years. She spent much of that time in bed. And look at what happened to Sylvia Plath. Look at Vincent van Gogh. Look at Curt Cobain. Who was that singer from Joy Division... Rothko killed himself while young. Doesn't sound that Pollock was doing so great anymore before perishing in an alchohol related accident. There are many others for the list. Generally speaking, they seem to have done their best work and were best able to get along with others during the times that they were able to function or distract themselves via drugs or whatever. Furthermore, I personally know of many tragic tales of people dropping out of their grad programs and/or dissertations because their mood disorder rendered them disfunctional. I would bet anything that they hardly got any special bursts of insight or utter brilliance during the worst parts of their moods! I also doubt that the lowest points of their depressions correlated to their most productive periods. Thank goodness, I think they also experienced grace periods of some relief during which their talents were able to fluorish. For this, I am in even greater awe of them.
I do not doubt the reality or severity of the depressions of Virginia Wolf or Winston Churchill, nor, as an American, have I ever learned too many details about Churchill's career, but I strongly suspect that they both did their best spurts of work during periods of at least partial remission and not while anywhere near suicidal. I concede, poetry might be different, as it is verbal and can directly address feelings- but I am not familiar enough with Virginia's work to say anything for sure. I don't think she was into poetry so much actually- but again, don't know her well enough to say. I can't fathom tackeling anything like a writing a good or coherent book or diplomatically ending a world war while in the midst of a hell episode, however.
> > Virginia Woolf and Winston Churchill have also managed to accomplish great things while depressed.
WHILE depressed? How depressed, and what exactly does that mean? What does "depressed" mean in this context? Dysthymic? Suicidal? Recovering? Coping? Remission? Could they envision a future or get out of bed? Could they concentrate? Did they wish they were dead? How could they do great things if they were simultaneously wishing for death? I bet they could at least get out of bed and face people. Perhaps they experiencing a bout of gracious relief while active? Were they manic? (I honestly don't know, which is why I ask.) Did people use the term "depressed" in the past the way most of us use it today? Did the associations of the word "depressed" change over the years? I think most of us realize that the meanings of words in our evolving language can shift... Did they seek relief from any substances? Did they function steady, or in spurts?
> I got the impression that Virginia Woolf had trouble writing at her most depressed.
I expect you are 100% correct. Can anyone imagine writing well when feeling their absolute worst? Or even doing the dishes, collecting thoughts, sitting still, making a phone call, etc?When intensly depressed, it is kind of hard to focus on an art or writing project. If anyone out there knows how to focus great and be smart, creative, and productive while in the throws of the worst of their illness, please share this precious info.
If I ever had a pet peeve, it's that "brilliant creative people are that way because they are depressed/mentally ill/whatever-- and aren't they so darn crazy, wacky, creative and lucky" myth. No one here said it, but we're getting close to the topic. "Oh those wacky suffering, unstable creative types!" I think that's actually a really degrading and insulting stereotype. "If you are depressed, you are lucky- you must be so creative". Creative or not, depressed or not, we are all human beings. Depression hurts a lot, and whether or not one has ever written a book, a dissertation, painted a great painting in the past, made a movie----it somehow doesn't feel like it matters when one is in the depths of ultra-intense suffering. And furthermore, everyone is creative or at least has the capacity- just notice. No need to be "mentally ill" (whatever one would mean by that) to be creative.
This old outdated Romantic Era myth about tortured, emotionally out of control artists should go away. It's not helping anyone. In reality, the most "successful" artists of all sorts, including writers, today, are more noted for being rather business-like, career-ish, and methodical than for being any kind of wacky, kooky, or depressed.
I better mention that I in fact do not know very much about manic states, have never experienced one, and for this reason am not refering to them here in my complaint. I understand that the associated circumstances are different from those of unipolar depression and anxiety, and, having no experience and only scant knowledge, refrain from commenting-I'm not qualified and wouldn't know what I was talking about.
Maybe we are disagreeing about semantics and what "depression" is. Perhaps it would help us all if there were different words to distinguish some of the nuances and levels of being able to function. I disagree with much at the start of this volotile thread, but there are a few valid issues mentioned which I wish we could discuss and/or debate somewhere to help educate each other-try to dispell some hurtful myths and such. If this is the wrong place, I'm dissapointed, I'll abstain, go away, and everything everyone wants to say can stay very nice and true to the same civil prevailing wisdom which isn't necessarily proving super helpful to furthering understanding of mental illnesses. This could likely be the 3rd civility warning I'm mixed up with during this one weekend-as I unhappily attempt to defend myself from what hurts me, or try to explain why. I give up, dissapointed. I never meant any disrespect to anyone here- so yes, I'm frustrated today, but not at any of you or any individual. If there exists another forum elsewhere suitable for polite, constructive debate or discussion, I'd love to hear of it.
Posted by laima on July 23, 2006, at 21:11:14
In reply to Re:creativity and depression...I think it's a myth » fuchsia, posted by laima on July 23, 2006, at 20:17:58
Oh my god- obviously not having a good weekend here, rereading what I just wrote. If I was in great shape, I wouldn't have been looking at this blog so much in the first place, and it's still new and novel to me. You guys didn't even mention the "artist" thing, but I guess I'm feeling generally shook up, a bit fragile, and it didn't take much at all to get me bent out of shape over an issue that is a big deal to me. I hope I didn't inadvertently offend anyone somehow, but I won't be surprised to soon hear about being uncivil. I feel on eggshells, communication seems easier when it's face-to-face. I still maintain that it would be helpful to have a place where more abstract topics could be safely discussed, that the originator of this thread did bring up some points worthy of discussion, but this is probably not that place for abstract discussion, as at least for me, it's too easy to be interpreted as "uncivil". I'm genuinely beside myself in confusion. (And I'm talking about my topic- not his-not touching any of his.) I'm sorry for any plausable offenses, and I've learned a lot here during my short spell on the blog, thank you all, and I'll just have to go with whatever happens.
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2006, at 18:47:58
In reply to Re:oops » laima, posted by laima on July 23, 2006, at 21:11:14
"depressed artist is so creative and brilliant".
I understand too that this is a nonsensicle statment. OHOT, I don't think its fair to say that anyone who is clinically depressed must be bedridden and cognitively impaired.
For instance, drugs like straterra, can improve concentration and focus. OTOH, they can also cause depression in some people. So this drug can simultainiously improve cognition and make depression worse, which would seem to be evidence that depression need not be associated with cognitive impariement.
I guess I am trying to say that somebody can be extrordinarily sad, yet still able to easily string a sentence together.
I think there is a tendancy to see depression in others as one experiences it themselves. As a result, anyone who doesn't seem to match our definition, can't actually be depressed. But that should't be.
My mother's symtpoms were mainly tears. She'd cry most of the day, and describe anxiety and a sinking feeling, and constant thoughts of suicide. She was still able to communicate perfectly well, she was just extrordinadily sad.
Same thing with energy. Doctors always ask me how my energy is. My energy is fine, I'm not tired or slowed, that doesn't mean I don't think about killing myself 24/7.
Now, some people are depressed but not anxious at all. Now that doesn't make any sense to me, but I still wouldn't venture to say that they don't have some form of depression.
Linakdge
Posted by laima on July 25, 2006, at 19:23:39
In reply to Re:oops, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2006, at 18:47:58
Yes, I agree you mention good points.
What I got bent out of shape over was the "depressed/crazy artists, artists are mentally ill, you have to be mentally ill to be creative, best creativity happens when people are mentally ill" myths, astonishingly common. None of them or anything like them were even part of anyone's post anyway.
I wish I could just delete my stupid, off-topic, and innapproriate post. Poor judgement after a very straining weekend; I was feeling defensive and edgey.
> "depressed artist is so creative and brilliant".
>
> I understand too that this is a nonsensicle statment. OHOT, I don't think its fair to say that anyone who is clinically depressed must be bedridden and cognitively impaired.
>
> For instance, drugs like straterra, can improve concentration and focus. OTOH, they can also cause depression in some people. So this drug can simultainiously improve cognition and make depression worse, which would seem to be evidence that depression need not be associated with cognitive impariement.
>
> I guess I am trying to say that somebody can be extrordinarily sad, yet still able to easily string a sentence together.
>
> I think there is a tendancy to see depression in others as one experiences it themselves. As a result, anyone who doesn't seem to match our definition, can't actually be depressed. But that should't be.
>
> My mother's symtpoms were mainly tears. She'd cry most of the day, and describe anxiety and a sinking feeling, and constant thoughts of suicide. She was still able to communicate perfectly well, she was just extrordinadily sad.
>
> Same thing with energy. Doctors always ask me how my energy is. My energy is fine, I'm not tired or slowed, that doesn't mean I don't think about killing myself 24/7.
>
> Now, some people are depressed but not anxious at all. Now that doesn't make any sense to me, but I still wouldn't venture to say that they don't have some form of depression.
>
> Linakdge
>
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2006, at 16:12:13
In reply to Re:oops » linkadge, posted by laima on July 25, 2006, at 19:23:39
Your post was totally *not* off topic.
I guess we're just discussing what depression is and isn't, general misconceptions, etc.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on July 26, 2006, at 16:48:23
In reply to Re:oops, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2006, at 16:12:13
Well thanks, Linkadge, but I did make the mistake of posting while already thoroughly bent out of shape over some stuff, so I still regret.> Your post was totally *not* off topic.
>
> I guess we're just discussing what depression is and isn't, general misconceptions, etc.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by cloudydaze on July 30, 2006, at 4:48:08
In reply to Re:creativity and depression...I think it's a myth » fuchsia, posted by laima on July 23, 2006, at 20:17:58
I'd like to insert a comment here, because I too am an artist.
I believe that there is a link between creativity and depression and certain other mental illnesses. I do NOT believe that everyone who has a mental illness is creative, or that you are not creative unless you have a mental illness.
I believe that *maybe* there is a link possibly in genetics or something. I am no expert. Maybe it doesn't come FROM the illness, it just occurs alongside it? Or maybe it does come from the illness?
I think maybe people with certain mental illnesses have heightened sensitivity to certain things. As a person with bipolar, I can definately tell you that some of my passion as an artist (and as a person) stems from my illness.
when I am in certain states - say a very very depressed one - I am not extremely productive usually.
However, manic states and even semi-depressed states put me in a hyper-productive mode sometimes. My senses and emotions are overwhelmed, and I've been able to channel that energy and passion (whether it be negitive or positive) into my art and writing.
I think maybe if I was ever "cured" totally, that I would lose some of my creative ability. So, I loathe my illness, but in a way, I need it...
How ironic.
This is only how i feel, and what I think - not saying that anyone has to agree, and not trying to speak for anyone else.
This is the end of the thread.
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