![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 3:46:57
Hello, I was wondering if anybody has had any kind of credible success with meds for Obsessional Thoughts. I suffer constant debilitating thoughts that repeat over and over and over again and they all are self sabotaging thoughts that I create but cannot defeat through reasoning. I don't know if anybody can relate to what I'm describing but it has totally been the core problem of all my problems. Don't know what got the ball rolling first....... Did the depression cause the thoughts or did the thoughts cause the depression, anxiety, paranoia......amongst many other things. Am I just predisposed to this Obsessional way of thinking? Did I develop this way of thinking myself and actually create my own living hell? These are just a few of the questions that would be the million dollar answer but I guess I'll never know. The bottom line is that I need a way to regain control of my mind and not live "inside my mind" to the point that I neglect what's going on in front of me in the real world. I used to take Effexor XR and Depakote and it seemed to do the trick a little bit. I still had the thoughts but I was controlling them more. Suddenly the meds seemed to poop out or I just lost control of my thoughts again. Somebody please give me some advice on this because I so dearly need it to get on with my life and find some kind of enjoyment in this precious world.
Thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by slinky on November 26, 2004, at 7:55:07
In reply to Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 3:46:57
Hello..
Have you tried paxil?
I found it helps me with obsessive thoughts..I also take neurontin.. but whether or not paxil would help me without the neurontin I don't know.
Posted by jujube on November 26, 2004, at 10:50:41
In reply to Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 3:46:57
I don't have OCD or obessive thoughts, but I have heard that Clomipramine (Anafranil), which is one of the old TCAs, is supposed to be the gold standard for OCD. It does, however, come with a number of side effects which you may or may not experience with a SSRI. I just started using it, and am now at 50 mg for less than a week. So far, the side effects have been minimal (dry mouth and some dizziness when standing up too fast). Luvox, a SSRI, is also supposed to be good for OCD.
Hope you find something that works.
Tamara
> Hello, I was wondering if anybody has had any kind of credible success with meds for Obsessional Thoughts. I suffer constant debilitating thoughts that repeat over and over and over again and they all are self sabotaging thoughts that I create but cannot defeat through reasoning. I don't know if anybody can relate to what I'm describing but it has totally been the core problem of all my problems. Don't know what got the ball rolling first....... Did the depression cause the thoughts or did the thoughts cause the depression, anxiety, paranoia......amongst many other things. Am I just predisposed to this Obsessional way of thinking? Did I develop this way of thinking myself and actually create my own living hell? These are just a few of the questions that would be the million dollar answer but I guess I'll never know. The bottom line is that I need a way to regain control of my mind and not live "inside my mind" to the point that I neglect what's going on in front of me in the real world. I used to take Effexor XR and Depakote and it seemed to do the trick a little bit. I still had the thoughts but I was controlling them more. Suddenly the meds seemed to poop out or I just lost control of my thoughts again. Somebody please give me some advice on this because I so dearly need it to get on with my life and find some kind of enjoyment in this precious world.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 18:31:36
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts » TommyIsland, posted by slinky on November 26, 2004, at 7:55:07
>So paxil has worked for you? Did u try any other SSRI's before it and did anything else help? Also, did u ever take an SNRI such as Effexor XR and if so did that work at all? I actually used to take Luvox about 6 years ago before I started using Effexor XR. It's amazing that since I've started Effexor XR, I have never been able to ween off it completely except for once and I crashed so quickly that I immediately started up on it again. It's almost as if your brain chemistry changes for good as a result of taking that particular med.......Effexor XR.
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!1
Hello..
>
> Have you tried paxil?
> I found it helps me with obsessive thoughts..I also take neurontin.. but whether or not paxil would help me without the neurontin I don't know.
Posted by sl;inky on November 27, 2004, at 14:26:21
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 18:31:36
Hi
I went straight onto paxil while coming off celexa
I've tried all SSri's except luvox . Paxil so far is the only med that has quietned my mind and stopped wiered behaviour but it makes me sleepy and somewhat dumb..but I'd rather have a quiet head.
Effexor was a great drug but only sometimes-
I felt euphoric for a while then depressed..then it stopped doing anything.
I always started a new SSRI to wean off another..my brains pretty messed up with constant change.
I think some people need more than one med cause of partial response . Myself , paxil is good for ocd , neurontin for anxiety/irritability just need to find something for my depression.
Maybe you could try starting low dose paxil while reducing effexor?
Posted by TommyIsland on November 27, 2004, at 15:05:41
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by sl;inky on November 27, 2004, at 14:26:21
> Well I'm going to see a psychiatrist for the first time in about a year and a half. Recently I was just going to my regular doctor and having him prescribe me Effexor XR because I've been taking the same dose for so long. Needless to say, I'm not doing too well on the Effexor XR at 150 MG anymore and I need something else. I will inquire about Paxil as a possibility of a new medication to take. What neurotransmitters does Paxil touch upon......just Serotonin correct? I never responded to Prozac in the past or Lexapro (I tried it for a couple months about 2 years ago. I immediately went back to Effexor Xr for the lack of success with Lexapro.) Well who knows...........
Tommy!!!!!!!!!
Hi
>
> I went straight onto paxil while coming off celexa
> I've tried all SSri's except luvox . Paxil so far is the only med that has quietned my mind and stopped wiered behaviour but it makes me sleepy and somewhat dumb..but I'd rather have a quiet head.
> Effexor was a great drug but only sometimes-
> I felt euphoric for a while then depressed..then it stopped doing anything.
> I always started a new SSRI to wean off another..my brains pretty messed up with constant change.
> I think some people need more than one med cause of partial response . Myself , paxil is good for ocd , neurontin for anxiety/irritability just need to find something for my depression.
> Maybe you could try starting low dose paxil while reducing effexor?
>
Posted by smokeymadison on November 27, 2004, at 17:09:04
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 27, 2004, at 15:05:41
hi TommyIsland,
i have pure obsessional OCD and have never found antidepressants to be that helpful with controlling how much time i spend obsessing over self-destructive/disturbing thoughts. Instead, i would recommend an antipsychotic. i have been told by three different pdocs that the two newest and the best out there are Geodon and Abilify. I prefer Abilify b/c it doesn't sedate me near as much as the Geodon, but everybody reacts differently to different meds so i think that you might try either. hang in there!
oh--and i hated Paxil b/c of terrible sexual side effects and weight gain, so if those are concerns for you, be careful with that med!
Posted by yznhymer on November 27, 2004, at 20:10:09
In reply to Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 3:46:57
> Hello, I was wondering if anybody has had any kind of credible success with meds for Obsessional Thoughts. I suffer constant debilitating thoughts that repeat over and over and over again and they all are self sabotaging thoughts that I create but cannot defeat through reasoning. I don't know if anybody can relate to what I'm describing but it has totally been the core problem of all my problems. Don't know what got the ball rolling first....... Did the depression cause the thoughts or did the thoughts cause the depression, anxiety, paranoia......amongst many other things. Am I just predisposed to this Obsessional way of thinking? Did I develop this way of thinking myself and actually create my own living hell? These are just a few of the questions that would be the million dollar answer but I guess I'll never know. The bottom line is that I need a way to regain control of my mind and not live "inside my mind" to the point that I neglect what's going on in front of me in the real world. I used to take Effexor XR and Depakote and it seemed to do the trick a little bit. I still had the thoughts but I was controlling them more. Suddenly the meds seemed to poop out or I just lost control of my thoughts again. Somebody please give me some advice on this because I so dearly need it to get on with my life and find some kind of enjoyment in this precious world.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!Hey there...
My son has obsessional OCD. He's been treated successfully with zoloft and buspar, plus some specialized counseling that we found for him. The meds help both with the OCD and depression.
Posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 0:25:23
In reply to Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 26, 2004, at 3:46:57
Anafranil worked really well for me with very manageable side effects. It took me a long time, and still in the process of getting to the point where I don't need to figure it out, and know that many of the thoughts are just OCD. The effort used to employ logic and reason to explain the thoughts and 'get control' actually gives the thoughts more strength and increases their chance of a return visit.
I'm a broken record recommending this book, "The Imp of the Mind", but I don't care because I think anyone who suffers from Obsessional OCD should read it. It's a small little read, but very professionally written, in a non-patronizing, non-clinical way. I don't know of any other books that deal solely with the Obsessional form of OCD. Although we don't exhibit any compulsions, you find that your internal need to combat and reason with the thoughts is its own compulsion.
Anyway, you're not alone, you're not going crazy, you can get by. The meds get you through, but the structure of the thought patterns has to be addressed and understood and that's where this book leads you. Sorry to sound a bit preachy, but I really want to convey the importance of how what you're going through is not a sign of insanity, is not a life sentence of fear and dependence. It's from my own experience of simply relying on the meds and not really looking at the structure of the thoughts and giving myself the permission to deal with it, and I regret not being more proactive with my symptoms and recovery. It's really hard to be confident about yourself at all with the thoughts cutting you down at every turn, which is why I feel that the more you learn about it, the less you condemn yourself.
Hope this helps,
tt
Posted by TommyIsland on November 28, 2004, at 1:33:26
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 0:25:23
> Anafranil worked really well for me with very manageable side effects. It took me a long time, and still in the process of getting to the point where I don't need to figure it out, and know that many of the thoughts are just OCD. The effort used to employ logic and reason to explain the thoughts and 'get control' actually gives the thoughts more strength and increases their chance of a return visit.
>
> I'm a broken record recommending this book, "The Imp of the Mind", but I don't care because I think anyone who suffers from Obsessional OCD should read it. It's a small little read, but very professionally written, in a non-patronizing, non-clinical way. I don't know of any other books that deal solely with the Obsessional form of OCD. Although we don't exhibit any compulsions, you find that your internal need to combat and reason with the thoughts is its own compulsion.
>
> Anyway, you're not alone, you're not going crazy, you can get by. The meds get you through, but the structure of the thought patterns has to be addressed and understood and that's where this book leads you. Sorry to sound a bit preachy, but I really want to convey the importance of how what you're going through is not a sign of insanity, is not a life sentence of fear and dependence. It's from my own experience of simply relying on the meds and not really looking at the structure of the thoughts and giving myself the permission to deal with it, and I regret not being more proactive with my symptoms and recovery. It's really hard to be confident about yourself at all with the thoughts cutting you down at every turn, which is why I feel that the more you learn about it, the less you condemn yourself.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> ttWell thankyou very much Tom......I will indeed get that book and hopefully I will get some great information out of it. I know exactly what your saying and believe me......I've been thinking the same thing: The mental obsessions can only be treated to a certain degree with the meds because it is more of a structured maze of thinking and that is where it needs to be addressed. Does the book give insight on how to change your way of thinking or how to combat the mental Obsessions? Once again thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 11:03:32
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 28, 2004, at 1:33:26
The book does give advice, but not how to "change" your thought patterns, because trying to change the thoughts is a big part of the problem. The goal is to identify the thoughts as being irrational and OCD only, and not reacting to them, which is very difficult because as you know, the thoughts don't exist by themselves. They bring a visceral sense of dread, an anxiety and panic that compels you to try and figure everything out, because if you don't, you feel like you're going to die or have a panic attack or "go crazy."
The problem with talking about this with anyone who has not experienced it firsthand is that they will tell you, "ok, so big deal, so don't worry about it, it's just thoughts" which is invalidating and infuriating. They don't know the anxiety which hits you out of nowhere, they don't know the vise grips around your stomach, they don't know that it's not just the thoughts but the fact that they don't leave you any room to think about anything else. Which is why the structure of panic and anxiety has to be looked at also. Most nervous people will think of a million other things to do than look at their anxiety up close, I know it was like that with me. To just look at it without trying to find the magic solution, the magic unresolved anger from the past, the one thing they could've done differently---NO, you must look at what anxiety is, and not just its sypmtoms. For, this, an excellent book is "Don't Panic." Another book that deals with it in more depth (don't let the name turn you off, you don't need to have a phobia to read this book, it's got great great stuff in it) is "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook"
tt
Posted by TommyIsland on November 28, 2004, at 14:11:27
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts » TommyIsland, posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 11:03:32
>I know what u mean about trying to change the thoughts but at the same time I feel that the thoughts themself are so gripping because it actually becomes a phobia entangled in your mind. It almost seems like a neverending circle of reactions followed by dread. I would like to think that if u can "De-Power" the thoughts and get a grip on them, u can see that they are simply irrational fears. My thoughts like I said earlier are all based around things that can't be proved 100%. For example, I'm not obsessed with flying away like a helium balloon because gravity exists 100% and I know were not going to floar away. When we enter the human character........that is were I have been able to really dig in and obsess away to the point where I can't actually find any proofs. For example, I look at personality and I then analyze it and tear it down with "What If's." I can start breaking it down and it seems to have immediate results. I don't want to weigh u down with more meaningless thoughts so I'll end it at that but I just wanted to give you an idea of the kind of thoughts I'm personally dealing with. It really all leads me to realize it's completely self sabotaging self destrucive behavior. It's like I'm on this neverending quest to disprove the things in life that make us happy and prove that there just fabricated ideas and emotions that can be changed as quickly as they can be broken down and challenged. I know this sounds like a horrible thing to obsess about but it truly has me in it's "Vice Grips" and I need to be released to enjoy my life again. Sometimes I just wish I could get hypnotized to forget these things or even get ECT and maybe I would forget these obsessions. I actually feel that if I hadn't stumbled into this way of thinking, I would never be like the way I am. I really feel like I'm just completely over taken by these thoughts and ideas and as a result I have a true phobia of thinking about these things because in my mind they have power and credibility that I can't disprove or shake away as just purely "nonsense." If you can relate to me I guess I would be happy but if you can't, I'm just as happy for you because it is a living hell man. Any advice from this monologue I just wrote would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The book does give advice, but not how to "change" your thought patterns, because trying to change the thoughts is a big part of the problem. The goal is to identify the thoughts as being irrational and OCD only, and not reacting to them, which is very difficult because as you know, the thoughts don't exist by themselves. They bring a visceral sense of dread, an anxiety and panic that compels you to try and figure everything out, because if you don't, you feel like you're going to die or have a panic attack or "go crazy."
>
> The problem with talking about this with anyone who has not experienced it firsthand is that they will tell you, "ok, so big deal, so don't worry about it, it's just thoughts" which is invalidating and infuriating. They don't know the anxiety which hits you out of nowhere, they don't know the vise grips around your stomach, they don't know that it's not just the thoughts but the fact that they don't leave you any room to think about anything else. Which is why the structure of panic and anxiety has to be looked at also. Most nervous people will think of a million other things to do than look at their anxiety up close, I know it was like that with me. To just look at it without trying to find the magic solution, the magic unresolved anger from the past, the one thing they could've done differently---NO, you must look at what anxiety is, and not just its sypmtoms. For, this, an excellent book is "Don't Panic." Another book that deals with it in more depth (don't let the name turn you off, you don't need to have a phobia to read this book, it's got great great stuff in it) is "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook"
>
> tt
>
>
>
Posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 15:45:38
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 28, 2004, at 14:11:27
> >I know what u mean about trying to change the thoughts but at the same time I feel that the thoughts themself are so gripping because it actually becomes a phobia entangled in your mind. It almost seems like a neverending circle of reactions followed by dread. I would like to think that if u can "De-Power" the thoughts and get a grip on them, u can see that they are simply irrational fears. My thoughts like I said earlier are all based around things that can't be proved 100%. For example, I'm not obsessed with flying away like a helium balloon because gravity exists 100% and I know were not going to floar away. When we enter the human character........that is were I have been able to really dig in and obsess away to the point where I can't actually find any proofs. For example, I look at personality and I then analyze it and tear it down with "What If's." I can start breaking it down and it seems to have immediate results. I don't want to weigh u down with more meaningless thoughts so I'll end it at that but I just wanted to give you an idea of the kind of thoughts I'm personally dealing with. It really all leads me to realize it's completely self sabotaging self destrucive behavior. It's like I'm on this neverending quest to disprove the things in life that make us happy and prove that there just fabricated ideas and emotions that can be changed as quickly as they can be broken down and challenged. I know this sounds like a horrible thing to obsess about but it truly has me in it's "Vice Grips" and I need to be released to enjoy my life again. Sometimes I just wish I could get hypnotized to forget these things or even get ECT and maybe I would forget these obsessions. I actually feel that if I hadn't stumbled into this way of thinking, I would never be like the way I am. I really feel like I'm just completely over taken by these thoughts and ideas and as a result I have a true phobia of thinking about these things because in my mind they have power and credibility that I can't disprove or shake away as just purely "nonsense." If you can relate to me I guess I would be happy but if you can't, I'm just as happy for you because it is a living hell man. Any advice from this monologue I just wrote would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yes yes yes, of course, absolutely. I don't want you to think that I'm saying your thoughts are completely irrelevant, that they're completely irrational. It's the power they have over you and their exaggerated importance that I was getting at. OCD attacks with thoughts that have a basis in reality, that have a possibility of being true or dangerous, which is exactly what gives them power. When I first started having trouble, it was with violent images, criminally sexual images, which would fly into my brain. I would be talking to a loved one, and a crystal clear picture would enter my mind of me doing violent harm to them or abusing them sexually. With family members, if you can imagine the horror. I puked my guts out night after night, panic attacks keeping me away from everything. Of course my first thought was not that I had never had an urge to do these things, that this was just a weird thing, and that the thoughts actually were repulsive and made me sick. No, the first thought was "I'm losing my mind. I am going to kill people. I am going to rape people. I am going to do terrible things." Because the thoughts made that idea possible, that I would turn into a monster. It didn't happen, of course. But I had no idea what OCD even was. Not a clue. I didn't even know that I was experienccing a panic attack or what a panic attack even was. I had seen tv and movies like everyone where lunatics and murderers do unimaginable crimes. Actual news stories where a man murders his family. These things happen--that was the one tie to reality that gave the thoughts such terrifying importance, causing me to blindly and frantically search for ways to convince myself that it wouldn't happen which just made the thoughts come even more. Once I learned about ocd I knew that I would never do these things. OK. So the violent images stopped, and the ceaseless self-criticism and evaluation started. The point I'm trying to make here is that whether it is violent images or thoughts about others or hating how your mind automatically has to size up and disprove everything that comes your way, it makes no difference. These are all symptoms of a pattern. Whatever you feel you SHOULDN'T be thinking about, but has an urgent need for you to figure out, is what will enter your mind.
The OCD will not let me enjoy things. I know where you're coming from, tommy, I really do. Every time someone mentions an idea or an emotion or anything, your mind has to size it up, prove or disprove it, MAKE IT SAFE, MAKE IT UNDERSTANDABLE. One thing I realized is that this is a weird form of self protection. If you spend your time figuring out how emotions are predictable and undependable, you'll never have to enter any kind of situation where you're actually feel an emotion. Becuase the thinking is distorted, it goes to extremes, it wants an answer. It is from fear that it wants an answer, even though it doesn't feel that way. The thoughts that I have now are all pretty much the same, they tell me how stupid, talentless, unworthy, ridiculous, vain, irresponsible I am. It's not true. It feels true, but when I was forced to sit down and look exactly what the thoughts were, what the criticisms were, I was able to defuse them a bit. They fell into categories : Overgeneralization, Tunnel Thinking, Catastophic Thinking, and some others. It's a catalogue that my CBT therapist used. It wasn't easy because all of these thoughts, these fears, FEEL true. But they are distorted, exaggerated, and really just ways of keeping me away from the world and more possible pain.
I write my experiences for two reasons: so you know you're not weighing me or anyone with 'meaningless thoughts' and that you can talk about it, and you really understand that you do not have a unique indestructible disease. You have a lot to deal with, and the way it expresses itself with you is unique, but this is pure ocd garbage and you have the ability to throw it out and move on with your life.
Find a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist, get the books I suggested if they sound like they could help, know that you can let the thoughts burn themselves out. It is only only only your reaction to them that can make a difference. Not figuring them out, but saying "it's ok that I had that thought right now. That's more ocd, I don't need to think about this right now." It's not running away or giving up, it's moving on. You will still look at the thoughts, to be sure, but not at the instant they bombard you.
tt
Posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 16:13:16
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 15:45:38
Wanted to be more specific on one more thing. You wrote that for the things that make us happy you want to "prove that there just fabricated ideas and emotions that can be changed as quickly as they can be broken down and challenged." From my experience, with statements from my own thinking about the same topic, I know the one word in there that is the killer, the one that is driving you nuts, the word that has plagued me and fooled me: JUST. It is impossible for anything to be just one thing, to have just one motivation for action, to have just one feeling about anything. It is another search for absolute certainty.
One of the criticisms I would have is that with anything I enjoy doing, like reading, or listening to music, the OCD would come in and say that "youre just doing this because you want to fill your time, and you need to feel smart. you're just trying to make up for what the ocd has taken away. you don't like these things." and I'd believe it enought to limit myself from enjoying things. it would work me into arguing and defending myself and make me nuts.
The point of that word is to make everything pointless by locking it into a useless framework of logic but it's just not true.
Posted by TommyIsland on November 28, 2004, at 20:13:51
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 16:13:16
> Wanted to be more specific on one more thing. You wrote that for the things that make us happy you want to "prove that there just fabricated ideas and emotions that can be changed as quickly as they can be broken down and challenged." From my experience, with statements from my own thinking about the same topic, I know the one word in there that is the killer, the one that is driving you nuts, the word that has plagued me and fooled me: JUST. It is impossible for anything to be just one thing, to have just one motivation for action, to have just one feeling about anything. It is another search for absolute certainty.
>
> One of the criticisms I would have is that with anything I enjoy doing, like reading, or listening to music, the OCD would come in and say that "youre just doing this because you want to fill your time, and you need to feel smart. you're just trying to make up for what the ocd has taken away. you don't like these things." and I'd believe it enought to limit myself from enjoying things. it would work me into arguing and defending myself and make me nuts.
>
> The point of that word is to make everything pointless by locking it into a useless framework of logic but it's just not true.
Thanks so much Tom for this excellent information you are providing. It is actually very comforting to know that other people out there such as yourself experience similiar Obsessive thought patterns like the one's I am battling internally and I'm not an isolated case. It really is very difficult to describe the thought processes........even to a psychiatrist or psychologist. I have tried a few times in the past and they seem to dismiss them quickly and move on to more general ways of coping with my depression, etc. I don't understand why I can't just find a doctor who understands that he has to listen to me EXACTLY and work from there. It is the Obsessions that need to be addressed because I truly feel that they are the cause of Depression. Do you agree? Do you feel that much of your depression and anxiety are a direct result of the Obsessions? I mean what came first the chicken or the egg? Do u feel that your mental state of mind improves dramatically if u learn how to deal with the Obsessions and regain control? Where does this science seem to think this problem originates? Is it a learned way of thinking or a genetic response or is it brought on by environmental stress from childhood or is it a possible combo all of them? From the first onset ever of depression I can remember when I was 15 years old, I can remember the Obsessive thoughts. ALWAYS! I was always stuck in my mind analyzing and obsessing. I can truly say that the Obsessions were there from the very beginning of all my mental hardships. With them came depression, anxiety, paranoia and whatever other trait I could have inspired to jump on board. How long have u been dealing with this if u don't mind and how has your progress been? Do u feel that books and self educating has helped u the most or CBT with a therapist has given u your greatest breakthroughs of success? Thanks again Tom and I hope to hear from u soon!
Thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 21:51:33
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 28, 2004, at 20:13:51
> Thanks so much Tom for this excellent information you are providing. It is actually very comforting to know that other people out there such as yourself experience similiar Obsessive thought patterns like the one's I am battling internally and I'm not an isolated case. It really is very difficult to describe the thought processes........even to a psychiatrist or psychologist. I have tried a few times in the past and they seem to dismiss them quickly and move on to more general ways of coping with my depression, etc. I don't understand why I can't just find a doctor who understands that he has to listen to me EXACTLY and work from there. It is the Obsessions that need to be addressed because I truly feel that they are the cause of Depression. Do you agree? Do you feel that much of your depression and anxiety are a direct result of the Obsessions? I mean what came first the chicken or the egg? Do u feel that your mental state of mind improves dramatically if u learn how to deal with the Obsessions and regain control? Where does this science seem to think this problem originates? Is it a learned way of thinking or a genetic response or is it brought on by environmental stress from childhood or is it a possible combo all of them? From the first onset ever of depression I can remember when I was 15 years old, I can remember the Obsessive thoughts. ALWAYS! I was always stuck in my mind analyzing and obsessing. I can truly say that the Obsessions were there from the very beginning of all my mental hardships. With them came depression, anxiety, paranoia and whatever other trait I could have inspired to jump on board. How long have u been dealing with this if u don't mind and how has your progress been? Do u feel that books and self educating has helped u the most or CBT with a therapist has given u your greatest breakthroughs of success? Thanks again Tom and I hope to hear from u soon!
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
>
>I don't blame your therapist for trying to attack the depression head on and find coping skills, for after all, you have to get on with your life. Sometimes, you need to reach a place with enough strength to do the work you feel you need to do. You don't have to figure out the obsessions, you have to eat sleep and work and not want to die. And after that, you still don't need to figure out the obsessions. You asked if I thought the obsessions are the cause of depression and anxiety, and my answer is not really. It is obsessive thinking, the pattern, that is the culprit. Anything with some shred of truth can turn into an obsession. The pattern, the obsessional ocd, the way your mind works, not what it produces, not the symptoms, this is what you really need to understand. Once this happens, once you know how it works, only then can you really examine the obsessions and come to a conclusion that will stick. You have to recognize the pattern when it hits, and then you can recognize the obsession as a false irrational unnecessary belief.
Also, yes, I think your state of mind improves dramatically once you understand the illness better. Becuase the depression comes when you lose control or you feel humiliated by the inability to stop the thoughts. You can limit this, you really can. You stop hating yourself for having the thought and actually start to show yourself some compassion and even be proud of yourself for having the courage to learn, having the courage to refrain from responding to the thoughts. It's not easy but it's not too hard either.
I've experienced some form of obsessional thinking and anxiety all my life, but stress and life brought it to a pitch, made it a real problem. Stress will always worsen ocd symptoms. There are many varying opinions as to the biological component of the illness, and I'm not one to argue, because it doesn't really get you anywhere. It's as if someone tells you it's not biological that you have a better chance of eliminating it. Forget it, don't waste your time. Know that you can reduce it, know you can get past it. Just know it. Theorizing about its origin is time wasted that could be spent on dealing with it now.
The books I told you about were lifesavers, and a source of inspiration, confidence, much needed validation and information, but I would not have kept up or practiced the recommendations put forth in those books without a therapist. They are equally important, but it is more important in my opinion to find a therapist and not just a pdoc who's handing out meds. I did that for 6 years and that was fine with me because I was too scared to do the work, to look at the pattern and then really examine the thoughts. You have to reduce the anxiety a bit before tackling the thoughts because it's hard to be objective when you're on the verge of panicking. You also have to be real generous with yourself, give yourself lots of time and not set unrealistic goals of needing to be better by a certain time etc etc.
One more thing-- I haven't taken any meds for over 5 years. It hasn't been easy. I share this NOT because I think you should get off drugs. Let me say that again: I do NOT think you should stop taking meds. I took myself off once without tapering and the withdrawal was absolute hell. It was horrible, I was lucky to live through it, and I gladly and thankfully went back on meds. I stopped when I was ready to try to stop, with gradual tapering, with the help of my doctor. It was difficult and extremely rewarding. It's a lot of work. It hasn't been easy for me but it hasn't been hell either. I still give myself the option of going back on if I need to, if it gets too much. So far, it hasn't. I tell you this in hopes that you will trust me when I tell you that CBT, books, self-education, and above all patience and non-engagment of obsessive thoughts, that all these things can improve your life. That if you take your time and really learn about the illness, you can then dismantle the thoughts that have such a strong hold on you. There is no foward progress as long as you're trying to figure out the obsessive thoughts. There is no healing as long as you're responding to the thoughts.
Get the books, get help, stop fighting the thoughts, get on with your life. You can do it.
tt
Posted by TommyIsland on November 29, 2004, at 2:11:55
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 21:51:33
> > Thanks so much Tom for this excellent information you are providing. It is actually very comforting to know that other people out there such as yourself experience similiar Obsessive thought patterns like the one's I am battling internally and I'm not an isolated case. It really is very difficult to describe the thought processes........even to a psychiatrist or psychologist. I have tried a few times in the past and they seem to dismiss them quickly and move on to more general ways of coping with my depression, etc. I don't understand why I can't just find a doctor who understands that he has to listen to me EXACTLY and work from there. It is the Obsessions that need to be addressed because I truly feel that they are the cause of Depression. Do you agree? Do you feel that much of your depression and anxiety are a direct result of the Obsessions? I mean what came first the chicken or the egg? Do u feel that your mental state of mind improves dramatically if u learn how to deal with the Obsessions and regain control? Where does this science seem to think this problem originates? Is it a learned way of thinking or a genetic response or is it brought on by environmental stress from childhood or is it a possible combo all of them? From the first onset ever of depression I can remember when I was 15 years old, I can remember the Obsessive thoughts. ALWAYS! I was always stuck in my mind analyzing and obsessing. I can truly say that the Obsessions were there from the very beginning of all my mental hardships. With them came depression, anxiety, paranoia and whatever other trait I could have inspired to jump on board. How long have u been dealing with this if u don't mind and how has your progress been? Do u feel that books and self educating has helped u the most or CBT with a therapist has given u your greatest breakthroughs of success? Thanks again Tom and I hope to hear from u soon!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
> >
> >
>
> I don't blame your therapist for trying to attack the depression head on and find coping skills, for after all, you have to get on with your life. Sometimes, you need to reach a place with enough strength to do the work you feel you need to do. You don't have to figure out the obsessions, you have to eat sleep and work and not want to die. And after that, you still don't need to figure out the obsessions. You asked if I thought the obsessions are the cause of depression and anxiety, and my answer is not really. It is obsessive thinking, the pattern, that is the culprit. Anything with some shred of truth can turn into an obsession. The pattern, the obsessional ocd, the way your mind works, not what it produces, not the symptoms, this is what you really need to understand. Once this happens, once you know how it works, only then can you really examine the obsessions and come to a conclusion that will stick. You have to recognize the pattern when it hits, and then you can recognize the obsession as a false irrational unnecessary belief.
>
> Also, yes, I think your state of mind improves dramatically once you understand the illness better. Becuase the depression comes when you lose control or you feel humiliated by the inability to stop the thoughts. You can limit this, you really can. You stop hating yourself for having the thought and actually start to show yourself some compassion and even be proud of yourself for having the courage to learn, having the courage to refrain from responding to the thoughts. It's not easy but it's not too hard either.
>
> I've experienced some form of obsessional thinking and anxiety all my life, but stress and life brought it to a pitch, made it a real problem. Stress will always worsen ocd symptoms. There are many varying opinions as to the biological component of the illness, and I'm not one to argue, because it doesn't really get you anywhere. It's as if someone tells you it's not biological that you have a better chance of eliminating it. Forget it, don't waste your time. Know that you can reduce it, know you can get past it. Just know it. Theorizing about its origin is time wasted that could be spent on dealing with it now.
>
> The books I told you about were lifesavers, and a source of inspiration, confidence, much needed validation and information, but I would not have kept up or practiced the recommendations put forth in those books without a therapist. They are equally important, but it is more important in my opinion to find a therapist and not just a pdoc who's handing out meds. I did that for 6 years and that was fine with me because I was too scared to do the work, to look at the pattern and then really examine the thoughts. You have to reduce the anxiety a bit before tackling the thoughts because it's hard to be objective when you're on the verge of panicking. You also have to be real generous with yourself, give yourself lots of time and not set unrealistic goals of needing to be better by a certain time etc etc.
>
> One more thing-- I haven't taken any meds for over 5 years. It hasn't been easy. I share this NOT because I think you should get off drugs. Let me say that again: I do NOT think you should stop taking meds. I took myself off once without tapering and the withdrawal was absolute hell. It was horrible, I was lucky to live through it, and I gladly and thankfully went back on meds. I stopped when I was ready to try to stop, with gradual tapering, with the help of my doctor. It was difficult and extremely rewarding. It's a lot of work. It hasn't been easy for me but it hasn't been hell either. I still give myself the option of going back on if I need to, if it gets too much. So far, it hasn't. I tell you this in hopes that you will trust me when I tell you that CBT, books, self-education, and above all patience and non-engagment of obsessive thoughts, that all these things can improve your life. That if you take your time and really learn about the illness, you can then dismantle the thoughts that have such a strong hold on you. There is no foward progress as long as you're trying to figure out the obsessive thoughts. There is no healing as long as you're responding to the thoughts.
>
> Get the books, get help, stop fighting the thoughts, get on with your life. You can do it.
>
> tt
Thanks for the great insight again Tom. I know what u mean about just getting away from the thoughts and not dwelling into them. Let me tell u a little history for a moment about my condition. I hit rock bottom at 15 in high school. I was a popular kid with many many friends who talked a mile a minute and told jokes like it was my job. Then like a strike of lightning I became paralyzed with the obsessive thoughts, then came the depression, then came the anxiety. Over the next few years I became for able to "banish" the thoughts or "forget the really scary ones" if u will. I seemed to have control for years but then it reached a peak again and the thoughts spiraled out of control again. So I do agree with you that life improves when your not thinking about these thoughts. However, in my case, they went away for years and then came back with more power than ever...........it's like I had them in jail and they broke out. Is there any medication that you've encountered that helps to ease the thoughts and banish them more easily. I agree being drug free is the ultimate goal but sometimes it takes some excellent meds to help you in getting there. Once again thanks there buddy.
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by AlexSamuel on November 29, 2004, at 3:12:49
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by tom_traubert on November 28, 2004, at 0:25:23
Hi Tom,
I know Anafranil is great for OCD. I too use it. But do you know it produces strong physical dependence? I tried to come off it but I could never. How would you come off it if you want to change your med?
Posted by tom_traubert on November 29, 2004, at 8:58:58
In reply to Re: Anafranil is great. But how would come off it? » tom_traubert, posted by AlexSamuel on November 29, 2004, at 3:12:49
Anafranil has a physical dependence for sure, but in my case, I was on Klonopin also, which I think was more difficult to discontinue. I really don't know what to suggest, but it's definitely something that's between you and your doctor. The hard part about getting off meds is that the withdrawal symptoms persuade you into believing that you need the meds even more. That the symptoms that caused you to start the medication come back even stronger due to withdrawal symptoms, which throws you into a panic and makes you think "what the hell was i thinking, I really need to be on meds." But it's a real waiting game. You have to be prepared for symptoms to return with possible periods of them being worse than you remember.
Maybe you should start a new thread asking everyone on this site how they were weaned off, because my experience isn't typical. I was drinking and smoking pot, which got me hypomanic, and I started to miss dosages, became more hypomanic, and abruptly stopped taking all meds, which threw me into a full blown manic episode. The worst. I learned later that abruptly cutting off, not tapering off, can cause a manic
episode. You can taper off safely, but never never never just stop. The risk is too high.Anyway, to get me down from my mania, they pumped me full of zyprexa, depakote, and xanax. It worked, all right, and I gained 25 pounds and became a zombie. they stopped the zyprexa, and started my on zoloft, but I was depressed as hell. They wanted to keep me on the depakote because I had earned the new dx of bipolar, which of course is reasonable, because 1 episode is enough to warrant the label. But I was convinced that it was caused by the abrupt withdrawal of my meds, and I later found evidence to support my claim. At the time, I was miserable and medicated to the gills and I was just fed up. I reached a point where I just wanted to try, so with my doctor, who took a lot of convincing, I tapered off the depakote and the zoloft and the xanax. For about 6 months it was really really scary. Everything the anafranil had kept down for 6 years was up and alive and ocd-ing it's way with me. There was high anxiety, even some mild paranoia. I didn't care--I was hell bent on moving on with my life. I got an office job, started exercising, continued with cbt, and got on. After a while, it wasn't so scary. It was still a challenge. But I was able to really deal with ocd for the first time and I don't regret it one bit.
Posted by tom_traubert on November 29, 2004, at 9:19:38
In reply to Re: Meds for Obsessional Thoughts, posted by TommyIsland on November 29, 2004, at 2:11:55
> Thanks for the great insight again Tom. I know what u mean about just getting away from the thoughts and not dwelling into them. Let me tell u a little history for a moment about my condition. I hit rock bottom at 15 in high school. I was a popular kid with many many friends who talked a mile a minute and told jokes like it was my job. Then like a strike of lightning I became paralyzed with the obsessive thoughts, then came the depression, then came the anxiety. Over the next few years I became for able to "banish" the thoughts or "forget the really scary ones" if u will. I seemed to have control for years but then it reached a peak again and the thoughts spiraled out of control again. So I do agree with you that life improves when your not thinking about these thoughts. However, in my case, they went away for years and then came back with more power than ever...........it's like I had them in jail and they broke out. Is there any medication that you've encountered that helps to ease the thoughts and banish them more easily. I agree being drug free is the ultimate goal but sometimes it takes some excellent meds to help you in getting there. Once again thanks there buddy.
>
>
>
>
> Tommy!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Happy to help, Tommy. Again, Anafranil worked great for me, but I started on it 12 years ago. I'm pretty sure since then new drugs have been developed to combat ocd, but I don't know which are best.
You say the thoughts went away for years and then came back. My guess is that a period of stress or a new stage of life came along with more responsibility. is that right? Because that's what happened to me. It hit me when I was 18 and went away to college. It first became unmanageable with the onset of puberty, sort of dealt with it, but then the responsibility of college and making it and creating a life for myself and everything else an 18 year old goes through just opened the gates. It makes you think that the things you are going through causes the ocd, but I've found that it's not the case at all, it's not that simple. The ocd is there as a pattern first and foremost and attaches itself to whatever is in your life. A stressful event brings it out more, but doesn't cause it. You can manage the symptoms for awhile, build elaborate crutches that work, but the pattern the pattern the pattern has to be seen or you're going nowhere fast.
This is the end of the thread.
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