![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 4:04:03
Can CBT cure both social anxiety and PTSD? I have been suffering from depression and severe social anxiety since a teenager, and I am 33 now. I was psychologically bullied and abused by classmates, by my freshman college roommate, and at those times of abuse, I was very numb and couldn't really fight back effectively or know what to do. I have never taken illegal drugs, but it seems I was stoned or just plain so numb I couldn't really know what was going on until years later.
I couldn't graduate from college after 3 1/2 years . My grades were good for the first 3 years, then I was so afraid of talking in class and going to the dorms again, I didn't go back for one semester, but my parents finally convinced me to go back the following semester, my grades were horrible, and I decided not to go back.
I had always been afraid of giving speeches and talking in class. In fact, I attempted suicide my freshman year in HS because I didn't want to give a speech. But my parents sent me to school that day anyway. My parents never got me any help, despite both being doctors. Both being Korean probably had something to do with it..the stigma.
IN junior year, I was sent away to summer school, and I spent the entire 3 months in my room, and only ate 1 meal a day..breakfast...because I didn't know anyone and was afraid to be seen eating at a crowded dining hall all by my lonesome. Had similar problems in college, but in college, I at least could buy food from other places, but I felt so ashamed I couldn't make friends. I was always the floor weirdo because I never came out only for classes, and going to the bathroom, a communal floor bathroom was difficult because I was sos ashamed of being seen.
Because of my severe social anxiety, I became more and more depressed and felt more and more numb. I always felt suicidal and always planned my death. I wold tell myself..ok after this sememster I will do it,etc...been thinking of it for 20 years.
I went for therapy in 1997, told the shrink I had social anxiety, and she concurred. But I never was motivated to try the CBT...how could I when I was so depressed and the meds I was given didn't work. I stopped after 3 months when my shrink gave me an ultimatum. During that 3 months, I also went to a Kaplan course on taking the MCATS, a standardized test for getting into med school. I was in a small class of about 5-6 people, but everytime the instructor called on me, I would get very frightened. I did well on the tests, was planning to go back, but then the anxiety and depression never went away. SO I didn't go. Shortly afterward, I was consumed with so much anger and rage, and this is when the PTSD kicks in.
I think I was able to bury past abuses, but after therapy, they all came flooding into the forefront. I kept reliving over and over again in violently vivid emotions. The emotions I felt were of great rage and shame. I so much wanted revenge, and my anger just got worse. Moral outrage is so hard to let go of.
Every waking moment, I am constatnly reliving those instances and I can't get rid of them. I just want to die. I never had a job, couldn't graduate from college. I was supposed to go to medical school....I always had the grades and test scores, but I felt like such a loser socially, I didin't even want to bother going through the interview process. Just think. After all I told you so far, if you were interviewing an extremely depressed person, whose face is frozen in anxiety and doesn't smile, and is barely audible and doesn't make eye contact, how would you evaluate them? Also, because of my anxiety, I never had any extracurricular activites I could put on my appliction.
Is there such thing as Battered Acquaintance/friend Abuse Syndrome? Memories which give me the most anger are probably my association with a jewish kid from high school. I was so lonely and didn't have any friends, but this guy was pretty much the only person who talked to me. But he was always belittling my academic accomplishments, my hair, my clothes, my opinions. He even belittled my dad's income by saying out loud in class one day that his sister, who just graduated from college and was making 20k a year, made more money than my dad who was a surgeon!!! That is how abusive this jerk was, and how numb emotionally I was. He could pick me apart all the time and use me as an emotional punching bag, but I was sos lonely, I couldn't just tell hime to never talk to me again, or tell him that he was jealous and insecure. And he would have these stupid arguments about the dumbest topics and he always had to be right, and it bothereed the hell out of me.I know he had an emptiness he need filled with using me as an emotional punching bag. But knowing that doesn't make me feel any better. In my mind many times a day, I imagine myself telling him off, that he was jealous, lonely and insecure and needed someone to step on to make himself feel better about himself. But this feeling for revenge enrages me all the time, and Iwant to end it all.
The worst part is that this guy is now a wealthy investment banker, and I am nothing. I remember the first day ofcollege, this jerk called me up to criticize me some more. That is how much of a doormat and toilet I was for this guy's emotions. He said he wanted me to go to the class reunion in 5 years time so he cold compare himself to me. What a fucking asshole. This fucking Nazi has never gives me a single thought, but I am obsessed with his abuse evey waking moment The only thing I could respond, was that I meekly said he liked to dominate people and after he asked why I didn't decide to go to the same college he did, I responded that he used me as an emotinal punching bag. I also pointed out his father didn't like him. I regret not telling him that he was a jealous emotional Nazi.
I also rmemeber him telling me taht the only reason people of my race get into college is because they have to take people like me. Never mind I had straight A's and higher Sat scores then him. What a fucking Nazi.
nother incident which shows his abuse is one time in a study center in HS, he challenged me to arm-wrestling. I said no. He baited me by calling me chicken and bawk bawk. Well he beat me, and kept challenging me again. I didn't want to do it but for some reason I couldn't repel him. Well he kept doing this over and over again. Then I had to go to a guidance counsellore for something, then he followed me nad pesteresd me to keep arm-wrestling him . Apparently this Jewish Nazi asshole had been wegiht lifting and needed to prove to himself how strong he was. Can you fucking beleive this asshole kept following me around so he could keep defeating me in arm-wrestling. What the hell could I have done? I dind't know how to cope and deal with abusive scum. But I was so lonely and had such little self-worth, that I was flypaper for people like this, and this contuned with otheres in college.
ow this is long. sorry..next time I'll post in parts.
What I described aboe is probably what battered spouses and girlfrineds go through. Any basket cases out there go through the sam experiences I did?
Posted by mattdds on December 8, 2002, at 9:19:59
In reply to Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD, posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 4:04:03
Hey fuzzymind,
I had really bad SP during college, and even worse during high school. Now I'm in my third year of dental school, and things are much, much better. I would always get my food in the cafeteria to go because, like you, I was afraid of being seen alone or having to talk to somebody. I was afraid of stumbling over my words or looking stupid in general.
Man, that sounds like you had a tough time in college with that guy, what an ass! Sorry to hear you're having such a tough time.
Honestly, about 85% of my social phobia symptoms are gone because of the CBT! I had to work really hard to overcome my fears -- doing things that I never thought I could do as exercises. But, seriously, my experience with meds (you name the med!) was not good for SP. I think with SP you really need to work through distorted social- and self-perceptions that are at the heart of the problem, rather than just simply boost X or Y neurotransmitter. Social phobia is, in my opinion, much more complicated than that. Being socially competent (and confident) has more to do with developing a new set of skills and attitudes through hard work and practice, the old-fashioned way.
Don't get me wrong, I have found that Klonopin works very well for the residual 15% of symptoms. But by Klonopin alone, for me, couldn't have even touched my symptoms. Possibly it could have numbed me up a little, but it could not have possibly taught me the valuable set of skills and attitudes that CBT did. I think those were the underlying cause of the social phobia, rather than a deficiency of 1 or 2 neurotransmitters.
So, yes, CBT works, and there is a hell of a lot of research to back that up.
Try starting with the books, "The Feeling Good Handbook", by David Burns, as well as "Intimate Connections", by the same author. These books were written by an psychiatrist / former sufferer of SP. For me, they were invaluable! They really contain a wealth of information on social phobia, and the skills to overcome it. I'd love to discuss them with you, if you read them.
You sound like a smart guy, with a lot in store. So get motivated to try CBT, because it really does work!
All the best,
Matt
P.S. If you happen to be in New York City, some of the best CBT practitioners in the world are here. I feel lucky to live here.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2002, at 9:28:50
In reply to Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD, posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 4:04:03
Hi Fuzzymind,
I went through four years of being the picked on kid at school. Fortunately I have excellent dissociation skills and I remember little of the actual specifics, but I do remember my impotent rage. Nothing I could do would make any difference at all. Trying to be nice, getting angry, reasoning - all of them just led to mocking. I wanted to kill myself. My parents brought me to see a psychiatrist at the time, and I was heavily medicated, but my problems didn't go away until the situation changed at a new school. Even now I have significant leftover problems from the bullying abuse.
It sounds as if you still are holding on to the anger to a degree that is harming your life, in addition to the social anxiety. And honestly, I think social anxiety resulting from extreme bullying is pretty much normal. I wish the schools would understand what a huge problem this is.
Cognitive behavior therapy is the answer for some people, not all. I found that while it contains many good ideas, I was irritated by it because I felt somewhat like a dog in obedience school. On the other hand, my therapist picked up on the fact that pure cognitive behavior therapy would not be helpful for me, and now mixes the cognitive behavior therapy into a more interpersonal therapy, which I find a lot more helpful. Therapy is like anything else. You have to interview and maybe even try a few therapists before you find one that is helpful for you.
But I don't think you should discount medications either. You seem to be feeling a large amount of anger, fear, and depression. Medication in addition to therapy could give you the stable base that would make therapy work better. Your therapist will probably talk to you about all this.
I suspect that this discussion may be redirected to the psychological treatment board, Psycho-Pscho Babble. :)
Good luck with your decisions. There are others who experienced what you did, and who continue to be affected by it. And therapy can help the degree to which you are affected.
Dinah
P.S. A little warning to a newcomer. Dr. Bob prefers that we be careful not to use language that can offend others. I realize the language accurately describes how you feel, but he asks that we be somewhat restrained in our choice of words on this site.
Posted by bluedog on December 8, 2002, at 10:23:03
In reply to Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD, posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 4:04:03
Hi Fuzzymind
I have always been bullied no matter where I go. Suffering from social anxiety is like wearing a HUGE flashing neon sign that says "bully me" Sociopaths ( your so called "friend" definitely sounds like a sociopath to me) seem to have an inbuilt radar that picks up on the weakness that social phobics have in relation to their fear and inability to stand up for themselves especially in public.
As for the rest of society, they don't read the signs quite as clearly but they do seem to sense something "odd" or "not quite right" about social anxiety sufferers and this leads to isolation and terrible amounts of anguish, suffering, loneliness and depression for those with social anxiety.
I literally FELT every word that you wrote about your experiences and related them to my own experiences to this very day. All I can say is that you are not alone. Also, you will discover that not everyone in this world has cruel intentions and that you should associate with friends who are truly supportive and accepting of you as a person and who will not judge you in any way. You just need to learn to recognise at the very beginning of any relationship whether or not someone will be truly accepting of you (Yes, yes!!! I know this is much easier said than done but you have to try)
As for your so called "friend" the only advice I can give is to read the information contained in the following links. I found this information extremely helpful in understanding the processes that were going on when I was being bullied and I hope it can give you some insight and some clues as to some coping strategies you can adopt to try and protect yourself from the sociopaths in this world.
see http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/bully/serial.htm#Introduction and
http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/bully/amibeing.htm
thinking of you and wishing you all the best
bluedog
Posted by highanxiety on December 8, 2002, at 12:56:00
In reply to Social phobics are sitting ducks for sociopaths!!! » fuzzymind, posted by bluedog on December 8, 2002, at 10:23:03
You could say social phobics are also target practice for people with borderline personality disorder (and that diagnosis would definitely cover the bullying and the bulliers since BPDers always need to have a target for their rage!).
Posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 13:34:48
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD » fuzzymind, posted by mattdds on December 8, 2002, at 9:19:59
Good to see you got over most of it and are in dental school. ALso thanks to bluedog for providing me with that link. SOunds very familiar. I also adopted the behavior of a serial bully, and did that to someone at college, for which I am ashamed of. However, based on clues and hints he dropped, it sounded like he was getting therapy, and looking back 12 years in the past, it sounded like he was recognizing cognitive distortions. Well I am relieved and glad that he is now a post-doctoral fellow at a biotech firm...I have been wanting to apologize to him for 12 years. Maybe I should email him my life story and the webpages you gave me about serial bullies. I did a search of his name on the net and found his picture. However this guy also had many other friends, so my bullying didn't affect him seriously if at all. I beleive he was trying to be my friend ,and I squandered the golden opportunity. Ever y time he made overtures of friendship, I just belittled him. Any differeing opinions he had enraged me. I was also jealous whenever he would talk to anyone else, just like that abusive jerk in high school did with me.I rmeember encountering him 12 years ago in my last semester, and he just ignored me....which I deserved. Too bad I couldnt't just do that with my bullies. I wonder if social anxiety also turns people in to bullies?
Now I am at a crisis situation. I am extremely dependent on my folks because I never worked. However, for quite a long time, my father's private practice has been non-existent...new rules where patients have to first go a a general practitioner who then gives referrals to specialists. Well my dad has not been any referrals for a long time....all the referrals go to the white doctors. Now he has to sell the house and move into house I live in...he used to rent out this house, but I have been living in here..literally inside 99.9 percent of the time for 12 years.
Hell, I always waited at night to get the mail. In the past few years, I have repeatedly waited til the weekend to get the mail!!!! Th house is on a relatively busy road, and I am afraid of people seeing me. I also only went grocery shopping at 4am or earlier at the 24hr a day Pathmark.
Well anyway, my dad lost a ton of money in the stock market, his pension is almost nil and he has debts to pay. I was secretly hoping that I could live out my days here, becuase I saw on a website that the average salary of a doctor is about 186k and that of a surgeon is significantly higher. Well my dad is at the extrmem left of the bell curve. He and my mom have told me I will have to work in order to survive. THat is the first time in my life my dad has used that word survive. He will have to borrow mone y in order to repair this house...oh yes..I couldn't even do simple maintenance of the house becuase I couldn't go outside.Ever since he broke the news to me that they have to move in with me, I have been seriously contemplating suicide. Their next visit during Easter, I am planning on hooking up the car exhaust to a hose I shall buy at Home Depot. I am hoping it is painless. But I will have to open the upstairs windows so my cat won't be consumed by the carbon monoxide.
From 1991 to about 1997, I was depressed and suffering from anxiety, with some thoughts of suicide. From 1997 to the Thanksgiving of this year, I have been so worried about how I will live the rest of my life because in '97, my mom broke the news to me that my dad's practice had been next to nothing for a long time. How can I get a job? I feel like enough of a failure, but now I have to be able to go somewhere everyday? Go for job interviews? I weigh 255 pounds btw. Boy isn't that attractive....a depressed , anxiety ridden , suicidal obese Asian. What employer during a recession wouldn't want to hire that? Suicide seems like the only answer. I tried going through Burn's book, Feeling Good, but as I read through the definitions of cognitive distortions, I berate myself for not knowing about this in high school. Wh y didn't I know about these type of things when I most needed them, and not now when it is too late? I hate schools and colleges for not making students aware of such things. They have a million programs about drug addiction and drinking underage, but not one god damned thing about anxiety, depression, suicide.
I read that social anxiety is the 3rd most diagnosed psychiatric disorder. Where are all these people? The unemployment rate is only 6 percent, relatively high for the past decade, but it isn't like there are millions of people like me who are basket cases and can't work. On a radio show this morning , in New York on WFAN 660 AM, I heard a show hosted by Rick Wolff about holiday blues and social anxiety. Jeremy Berent was the guest, who has a website at socialanxiety.com. He told the audience about 2 patients in their 30's like me, whose parents had provided them with residences because of their social anxiety. I used to be like that but will no longer be.
My only friends for the past 12 years have been television, computer games, sports talk radio, and the Howard Stern show. For the past 3 years, I have also had a cat, and since 97, had 2 online friends who I play backgammon with. Much easier to socialize online when the person you are relating to doesn't have to see you not smile and speak tersely. Even with those 2 remaining online friends , iahve occasionally been very hostile nad now this morning, I repaired another online relationship which had been destroyed by me 1 year ago. But I still feel suicidal...I think I am trying to alleviate these knots and clnchings in my chest I ahve had for the past week. My heart is pounding so much, and I dread the passing of time to the ultimate end.
Posted by gabbix2 on December 8, 2002, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD, posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 13:34:48
Fuzzymind, thanks so much for what you said.
You mentioned it being long, but I'm impressed at how much you said, in a relatively short space.I can completely relate to what you've said
I'd like to add more but its the med board.Medication has been for me, helpful, but to change the patterns, and as bluedog mentioned that damn "flashing light",that seems to just make other people think you do this on purpose (in my case anyway) I think it must be therapy thats needed. I do know people who've overcome this, and its always been through therapy.(E.M.D.R. esp.) I've not been able to afford it myself
and doing all the reading and self help hasn't really done anything (for me) except reassure me that I'm not alone.I'm sorry for what you've gone through, I really appreciated your candor though.
Posted by BrittPark on December 8, 2002, at 18:50:51
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD, posted by fuzzymind on December 8, 2002, at 13:34:48
I'm sorry you're feeling so lousy and you may not like the advice I'm about to give, but go to the emergency room of a nearby hospital immediately. I know how hopeless you feel, but that is a disease talking not you. You deserve to live and live happily.
Feel better,
Britt
Posted by bluedog on December 9, 2002, at 2:35:00
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety Disorder, depression and PTSD » fuzzymind, posted by BrittPark on December 8, 2002, at 18:50:51
Does anyone remember that episode of the Simpsons where Lisa discovered that "nerds" ( I would substitute the word "social phobics" for the word nerd here) give out a certain smell that is irresistable to bullies and she developed a deodorant that would stop the bullies in their tracks?
Well I believe this episode of the Simpsons is not really that far from the medical truth!!! Does anyone know where I can purchase a can of this deodorant? { :) :) }
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 9, 2002, at 10:20:52
In reply to Social phobics are sitting ducks for sociopaths!!! » fuzzymind, posted by bluedog on December 8, 2002, at 10:23:03
> Hi Fuzzymind
>
> I have always been bullied no matter where I go. Suffering from social anxiety is like wearing a HUGE flashing neon sign that says "bully me" Sociopaths ( your so called "friend" definitely sounds like a sociopath to me) seem to have an inbuilt radar that picks up on the weakness that social phobics have in relation to their fear and inability to stand up for themselves especially in public.
>
> As for the rest of society, they don't read the signs quite as clearly but they do seem to sense something "odd" or "not quite right" about social anxiety sufferers and this leads to isolation and terrible amounts of anguish, suffering, loneliness and depression for those with social anxiety.I've been thinking a lot about this, and though I don't have social anxiety/phobia (most of the time), I see myself as having once been subject to what I called "pathological shyness". Now, I see it as an outcome of childhood abuse, a part of my experience with PTSD. In any case, I know very well that there are people who can read the signs. It's like we're colour-coded, and they know what colour they're looking for.
I don't know if it's the same for others, but what I've come to suspect is that these predators sense just how much is going on inside of us. They know that behind those eyes lies a whirlwind of activity, a massive and overwhelming flow of thought and emotion. We think we're "wearing a mask", but our eyes give us away.
Every one of these predators is an eye-contact junkie.
And that's all they need, a high level of distraction. It raises doubt, delays reactions, permits outside influences to come into play, and allows them to get behind the eyes, to play in our heads.
Posted by gabbix2 on December 9, 2002, at 11:17:23
In reply to Re: Social phobics are sitting ducks for sociopaths!!!, posted by Larry Hoover on December 9, 2002, at 10:20:52
Thanks for that! I didn't see it, I wish I had.
Lisa's my hero.
I think the trick would be to find out *exactly* what we smell like, and develop a chemical compound of the *exact* opposite.. hmmm.
Well maybe its going to be a while yet. :) :)
Posted by IsoM on December 9, 2002, at 18:17:15
In reply to RE: anti bully deoderant:, posted by gabbix2 on December 9, 2002, at 11:17:23
I'm not trying to sound like an expert, but I can 'read' people extremely well. A person who's bullied presents a certain image that is obvious to many people, not just bullies. It's just that bullies hone in on these poor souls because they're predators. Others who aren't mean (but not necessarily friendly) will simply ignore them as social outcasts & rarely come to their aid.
People who are picked on often have a certain stance & walk. Their appearance lacks the confidence & sureness that the average person has. They may walk with a bit of shuffle, or not as briskly, or slightly hunched over. They may drag their feet too. They'll often tend to look downwards more, head bend down. There's a list of noticable things that one can analyse by watching them around others.
I have one son like that (he's 27 now) & a close friend's youngest son was similar. Both were targeted. If one can teach their child (or as an adult you can teach yourself) how to present a different appearance to the world, bullies will have a much harder time spotting such a person.
It's not just something I've made up - I've read about it before. Small things like keeping your head up, chin forward; making firm but brief eye contact, not keeping your eyes on them (try to make eye contact while thinking they can all go to hell, you're better than them - it'll help); a strong, reasonably brisk stride (speaks authority & discourages losers from picking you out). If your voice is soft & quiet, practice speaking at hiome alone in a slightly deeper & louder voice - it makes a big difference too. Make sure you don't end your sentences with an upward lilt like when a question is asked; it sounds indecisive & weak to others.
I know this sounds like a bother to do. Why can't people be nice enough to be kind to everyone? But it's not going to happen. One benefit to practicing this is an increased sense of confidence in yourself in public situations. It's not something my friend or I expected, but over time, both our sons' confidence increased & they felt more comfortable (though never really relaxed) in public.
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 18:33:38
In reply to Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile, posted by IsoM on December 9, 2002, at 18:17:15
There has to be something else though, in addition to shyness or social phobia, that can trigger the predator instinct. I was never the tiniest bit shy and my self esteem was just fine prior to my bullying experience, yet I apparently wore a target on my back. Three different schools were involved. After my bullying experience, I still wasn't the tiniest bit shy, but I was (rather understandably I think) somewhat phobic and lacking in interpersonal confidence (as opposed to overall confidence).
A lovely psychiatrist I met a few times told me that I probably telegraphed a certain oddness that others picked up on. I definitely had an interpersonal confidence problem after meeting with him. :)
So I imagine there are myriad signals that predatory humans pick up on. Sigh. If I could start my career life over again, I would be an anti-bullying curriculum specialist. The harm bullying does is incalculable.
Dinah
Posted by IsoM on December 9, 2002, at 19:38:23
In reply to Re: Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile » IsoM, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 18:33:38
Dianh, I included shy in my subject line as I was trying to convey the idea that there's not just one label identifying a person who's bullied.
I agree that shyness isn't always part of it. I had a friend in high school who wasn't shy at all. She was a good friend & a wonderful person but she had no other close friend. She "exuded" a certain oddness that others commented on. It didn't bother me & I enjoyed her company a lot.
I hope you're not offended but while I know you don't look like her, when I picture you, I imagine you look like her. When we both went to university, I ended up giving her some social tips. I felt horrible pointing out certain things to her (like I was judging her or something), but I hated that other people thought she was weird. I didn't want her to be harshly judged the rest of her life. Happily, she wasn't insulted at all & put them to use. She ended up marrying a good looking, very intelligent guy - not that I'm saying I was responsible, but her social life did improve.
It's not really how a person may feel, but how they present themselves to others.
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 21:28:45
In reply to Re: Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile » Dinah, posted by IsoM on December 9, 2002, at 19:38:23
Chuckle. No I'm not offended.
Odd thing. I also ended up marrying a good looking, extremely intelligent, and socially adept man. Mind you I met him during a period of my life when I wasn't unpopular. But perhaps the very intelligent men can either see past or aren't put off by a certain oddness, or quirkiness as I prefer to call it. :)
Posted by bluedog on December 10, 2002, at 0:10:40
In reply to Re: Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile » Dinah, posted by IsoM on December 9, 2002, at 19:38:23
I think the seeds of bullying and the psychological problems that they can lead to are sown VERY early in life. (as early as in the crib)
I have seen studies that show that the so called "professionals" who care for us as babies, children and teenagers, and play a significant role in shaping and developing us into the individuals we end up being, have a lot to answer for!!!!
These "professionals" include Child-Care Workers, Baby-sitters, Teachers, Doctors and Nurses and even School Social Workers. In the time that I was growing up all these parties were either completely ignorant that bullying occured or were burying their heads in the sand because it was easier to ignore the problem than to actually have to deal with it. I honestly don't know whether they realised that they had a duty of care to prevent the bullying occurring or whether they actually understood the long term psychological consequences for the bullied (AND the bullies) and the ultimate outcomes on the general health of our society.
Whats more some of these "professionals" actually participate themselves in in the bullying process either overtly or indirectly (ie they can be accessories to the crime and therefore can be judged as guilty as the direct perpertrators). I remember a certain wood work teacher who used to take disruptive students to a back room and "slap them around" to pull them into line. I also remember a physical education teacher (I think you call them coaches in the US) that made us run around a local lake near our school and if you didn't make it around in under a certain amount of time they made you go again (which meant you were excluded from partaking in the fun activities like archery or basketball) It would always be the same poor overweight kids who couldn't make the run fast enough and I can't imagine how damaging these experiences must have been for their future mental well being (considering that they were already being bullied by their peers simply for being overweight).
From a more subtle point of view it has also been proven that the more charismatic, outgoing or beautiful babies get extra and much warmer and nurturing attention from nurses and baby sitters leaving the "odd" babies starved of love and attention. These professionals do not deliberately engage in this behaviour and it is completely subconscious but I believe it is still a subtle form of bullying that needs to be stamped out.
I STRONGLY believe that ANY professional who has any dealing or influence in shaping the development of children should have INTENSIVE training in recognizing the signs of bullying, learning how to effectively deal with the problem and also to recognise their own subtle behaviours in favouring the beautiful children over the quieter or less attractive children. Any professional who cannot deal appropriately with these issues does not deserve to be called a professional and should have their licences withdrawn or suspended until they have undergone remedial training!!
When this happens I believe we will end up with a much more caring and supportive community (it will probably take a several generations to happen) and the incidence of social anxiety/ shyness/ nerdiness will actually be reduced and we will all be accepted as unique but different individuals.
Idealistic???? Maybe!!!! (I agree there is always primitive human nature to deal with)......but why not give it a try and see what happens? I predict that there will be far less depression in future generations if this happens.
bluedog
Posted by IsoM on December 10, 2002, at 0:16:03
In reply to Re: Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile » IsoM, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2002, at 21:28:45
Or perhaps this quirkiness or oddness is somewhat attractive to more intelligent men? Maybe such a man doesn't want the run-of-the-mill average woman but someone more interesting?
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2002, at 1:42:41
In reply to Re: Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile » Dinah, posted by IsoM on December 10, 2002, at 0:16:03
Posted by fuzzymind on December 10, 2002, at 2:10:50
In reply to Re: let's stick to medication-related issues here (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2002, at 1:42:41
Sorry...I didn't realize ths ws the medication group. SHould I start all over in the psycho babble babble group?
Posted by fuzzymind on December 10, 2002, at 5:07:28
In reply to Re: let's stick to medication-related issues here (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2002, at 1:42:41
WHere di my previous posts go?
Posted by Michael D on December 10, 2002, at 7:18:34
In reply to Re: let's stick to medication-related issues here, posted by fuzzymind on December 10, 2002, at 5:07:28
> WHere di my previous posts go?
Look bellow this message.
Michael D
Posted by WorryGirl on December 10, 2002, at 13:08:34
In reply to Re: Social phobic/nerd/ shy person profile » Dinah, posted by IsoM on December 10, 2002, at 0:16:03
> Or perhaps this quirkiness or oddness is somewhat attractive to more intelligent men? Maybe such a man doesn't want the run-of-the-mill average woman but someone more interesting?
I'm so glad I read these posts and thanks to everyone posting them - they help me realize that by far I'm not the only one who has always felt "different" from the time I was fairly young.
I feel that many, many factors play into the frequent bullying of us "socially challenged" and often quirky people.
My best friend lives four hours away and often helps with my perspective of things about how I am treated, which many times is like a pariah. She is a strong person who is very quirky, but more socially gifted than I am. She is extremely intelligent, and there are many people who don't understand her, but she commands a certain respect in social situations that I cannot come close to - she refuses to let herself get bullied. Ironically, she was somehow able to get through her younger years of frequent bullying and admits that she often comes across more confidently than she actually feels. She may walk away from a confrontation with everyone shaking their heads, but no one would make fun of her. When we used to live in the same town I remember a group of people I met who treated me like a joke after talking with me for a while. As I became more uncomfortable, instead of trying to leave the situation, it was like I was trying to prove that I was worthy. I left feeling lower than I had in a long time. My best friend met these same people a week or two later and they found her "intriguing". Confidence definitely plays a big role in the social scheme of things and it was helpful to read the confidence tips posted on this thread - thank you!
I married an talented, intelligent and extremely socially adept man. I agree that the more intelligent people in this world may be drawn to oddballs because they seem less boring than your run-of-the-mill socially accepted beings. They may find us more stimulating and besides that, don't really care what everyone else thinks. They can also probably see beyond the "weirdness" and realize that we have a lot to offer. My husband loves my personality and would never want me to change as much as I continue to try and fail. Why can't I just accept myself as much as he and my best friend seem to?
I was bullied from the time I was a young child
and from birth I was an extremely colicky, fussy baby. I wasn't treated as well as my older sister because of it and ALWAYS felt inferior to her, even though I ended up having just as many talents and good qualities as she has (plus a few more of my own, just as I'm sure she has). It was like I was labeled as "the troubled child". and as I grew older, I started to notice that other children didn't gravitate towards me like they did to others, which was when I really started feeling different from everyone else. I think that builds into your growing confidence to eventually produce an anxious adult who is often uncomfortable in social situations.My whole 7th and 8th grades (went to a private school) I was mercilessly teased for the way I talked (through my nose) almost every lunch break. The teacher would leave the room during this time and the kids were pretty much on their own. I felt outnumbered when I ineffectively tried to stand up for myself. To help prevent myself from getting picked on even more, I would only talk if I had to, but it was too late. Once they realized I was easy prey they picked on me until my graduation from the 8th grade. The one friend I had made in the 7th grade eventually dumped me when they starting picking on her for being friendly with me, so I spent my entire 8th grade friendless, except for a few of the 3rd and 4th graders who befriended me! Pathetic, huh? Fortunately we moved! It's no wonder that I often feel so insecure in social situations. I wonder how many others out there feel that bullying experiences account for their social problems?
Another thought: As an "oddball" woman, I feel that men in general are much more tolerant of my weirdness. It seems to be the other women who have the toughest time with me these days. Obviously, the natural sexual chemistry overlooks many flaws!
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2002, at 16:54:24
In reply to Oddness, quirkiness, etc. and bullying, posted by WorryGirl on December 10, 2002, at 13:08:34
Hi.
I think this topic is an extremely important one, and one that needs to be given far more weight in the psychological treatment of adults than it currently is given. I definitely think a further discussion is warranted. But I suspect that Dr. Bob would prefer it to be moved to Psychological Babble whether than continued on the meds board, so I redirected it there. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20021109/msgs/1786.html
See you there.
Dinah
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.