![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
A "friend" just called. Actually, the quotations are unwarranted. This friend has a lot of baggage and it is unfair to take my baggage out on her. But being in the space I am, her call hurts. She called yesterday and suggested dinner today. Being desperate for human contact, I said yes. But today she calls and cancels because she had scheduled too much on her plate, and me, being the new kid in town, is the one to go.
I spent some time last night considering what I need to do to make more human contact. My phone does not ring. That has to change. I will choose the road less traveled if I continue to have repeated depressed episodes. Actually, I have threatened my therapist and pdoc with taking my life the next time. Probably an idle threat because I doubt that I have the courage. Too many unanswered questions in my mind from my days of religion -- too many fears that the hell, fire and brimstone preaching I heard in my early twenties may be real. While intellectually I soundly reject such stuff, there is a part of me that must still believe, or I think I would just check out now. Because this pain I am in today is just not worth it. I cannot stand being alone any more. I cannot stand the phone no longer ringing. I have done this to myself -- but I don't have the patience to undo it -- nor the strength to tolerate the pain.
Your lonely hounddog
Posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 16:00:32
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
So happy that you are back. I was very sad when you decided to take a break, not certain how long it would be. I understood why, though.
I, too create the situation, the reason that I am alone a lot. When I feel strong, I don't mind being alone, but then when I feel strong, I tend to be more outgoing, and around others more.
But the reason the phone doesn't ring, at least for me, is that I have created relationships where I have to be the one to instigate it. I guess that I thought I fooled everyone "darn good" but really they noticed I was hiding a lot of the time.
Your tone sounds very different, very down. The suicidal thoughts are very upsetting, and so many of us here understand those. I, personally don't think anything horrible in an afterlife would happen to a suicide, but there's always the aftermath here. Your pets, at the very least, and I'm sure they're like family to you, as they are to me.
I think your meds are acting crappy, like mine are right now. I need to go back to a point in the spring when the Topamax was helping more but I have to have something to counteract the sedation. Wow, how did this get to be about me? ;)
I would rather not spend time with anyone who would drain me, like it sounds this person might have done. Better to be alone, and try to determine how to meet folks who will be mutually stimulating and helpful. And this board is a lifeline of sorts. :)
Glad you're back.
- K.
Posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 16:20:23
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 16:00:32
> So happy that you are back. I was very sad when you decided to take a break, not certain how long it would be. I understood why, though.
I had planned to be away for awhile. But I, like Willow, cannot stay away. :)
>> I, too create the situation, the reason that I am alone a lot. When I feel strong, I don't mind being alone, but then when I feel strong, I tend to be more outgoing, and around others more.
>
> But the reason the phone doesn't ring, at least for me, is that I have created relationships where I have to be the one to instigate it. I guess that I thought I fooled everyone "darn good" but really they noticed I was hiding a lot of the time.
>
> Your tone sounds very different, very down. The suicidal thoughts are very upsetting, and so many of us here understand those. I, personally don't think anything horrible in an afterlife would happen to a suicide, but there's always the aftermath here. Your pets, at the very least, and I'm sure they're like family to you, as they are to me.
>You are so right about the pets. I have been spending a lot of time with them. Sometimes when I get in a bad spot, I will just ignore them as well. But this time, I have been holding onto them very tightly. I guess they are one connection to reality.
> I think your meds are acting crappy, like mine are right now. I need to go back to a point in the spring when the Topamax was helping more but I have to have something to counteract the sedation. Wow, how did this get to be about me? ;)
>The sad part is that I have never had but a few weeks at a time -- well, take that back. There was a time last year I had about three good months. But it seems that we get me to a good point for a few weeks and then something happens. This time it seems to be purely med driven. In the past there has always been some huge trigger. The bar exam, a intense counseling program (last summer), a hearing before the Board of Law Examiners, surgery, or something. So then we mess with my meds. I seem okay for a few weeks or a month or so, then wham, it happens again. I just don't feel able to keep doing this -- I don't mean to upset you with the suicidal talk. I'm not there yet - it just is part of the dark space I am in at this time.
> I would rather not spend time with anyone who would drain me, like it sounds this person might have done. Better to be alone, and try to determine how to meet folks who will be mutually stimulating and helpful. And this board is a lifeline of sorts. :)
This friend is really cool to be around -- she is just never available. She probably is not much different than you or I in that she isolates a lot. One difference is that she makes plans and then cancels, where I would not make them. I would have rather she never offer. It plays with my weak psychy.
I am hoping I learned something last week about the board. First, I am not going to jump out there on a limb and necessarily help just anyone -- at least with my heart on my sleeve as Cam would put it. It is easy to talk about my experiences with a med, but I am going to be a little more reserved offering my other experiences. Yet, I am going to "cry" more here on PSB and not be so sensative if people don't respond. My therapist wants me to write more. This is one place I can do it, and there are some really neat people here, like you and Willow and others. This is more like my group therapy -- people on the board know what I am experiencing. That is not often the case with people in AA.
>
> Glad you're back.
>
> - K.It feels good not to have stayed away very long. I appreciate all the kind things you said about me in my lurking absence.
AKC
Posted by mila on August 12, 2001, at 17:47:02
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
Hi AKC,
i do not think that you have done it to yourself. Much of your social isolation/aloneness has been brought upon you by depression which is obviously something next to impossible to control by sheer will. The horrible paradox of depression is that it makes us avoid people, and that being surrounded by loving and caring people helps us heal and survive the depression. Those who are lucky have friends who stick with them throughout the decades of depression and rages. Others I guess have to pray that the medication will pull them out of hell and give them their extraversion back.
When I was depressed and suffered from social anxiety my salvation was my family, coworkers, and people in public places. Just being submerged in the body of the crowd and not particularly talking to anyone would have made a difference. Today I go through periods of intense loneliness willingly because my goals demand it. But I take phone numbers of nice people that I meet along the road, and contact them all on my vacations or Saturdays, when my goal is socializing as much as possible. I have noticed that when I am depressed or deeply introverted my face and my whole body are sending very uninviting messages. When I am relaxed and extraverted, strangers tend to initiate conversations with me, and I myself strike conversations easily and frequently with strangers. I am totally convinced that the right medication can make just about anyone very extraverted and outgoing. Paxil did this to me, and I haven't been this way since age 11. The change was amazing. Although it was gone with subsequent medications, I remembered the pattern of behavior it caused, and the attitude it brought with itself. so, when I went off meds I replay them willfully as needed.
All this is to say that although it is rather difficult to find a friend just when we need them within minutes, the task is much easier when we do some preparatory work every day. Gather phone numbers of nice people as you meet them and tell them that you like them and will call them when you'll have a more ample opportunity to enjoy a cup of coffee in their company. thus you will never run out of options.
BHW, if I were you, I would still go out and treat myself with a nice dinner. Chat with people in bar, sit at the nice table, be served, have a small talk with the waitress, be surrounded by murmurs of other people... all this will be a relief and a gift on their own. Friends are cool, but other people around us can also be very nice to have. Just exchanging a few words or a short conversation with someone sitting on the same bench in the park has always been very pleasant to me. I also happen to know a couple of gourgeous masseuses with soothing hands, melodic voices, and strong but gentle personalities. One hour on their table ... and I smile for days afterwards. my body remembers... would you like to give it a try?
best wishes
mila
Posted by Willow on August 12, 2001, at 18:15:22
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » Kingfish, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 16:20:23
> I had planned to be away for awhile. But I, like Willow, cannot stay away. :)
Oh, but you were at least able to hold out for a few days. Shows real intestinial fortitude!
> It feels good not to have stayed away very long.
Hang in there! I think once the pressures settle down for you things will brighten up. Keep a calendar count-down and at probably six weeks off effexor you'll see a big difference.
Willow
> AKC
Posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 18:23:09
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » Kingfish, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 16:20:23
Talking about suicide never scares me, nor do I imagine it scares others here. I think it's therapeutic. It's when we don't talk about it, that it's at a dangerous point, I think, although I know that goes against everything we're taught to look out for.
I did misunderstand about your friend - I have a good friend like yours, who has similar problems to mine, and has been absent from my life for about two months now due to stress and depression(not the same situation re: the canceling, though, which would be very, very frustrating). There is a hole in my life right now without her, and a fear that she won't return. Look, it's about me again... ;)
Re: PB - it really upset me, too.
I don't know about the meds. I wouldn't completely give up on the Topamax yet - I'm not going to, although for awhile I thought I might. It seems to be really hard to get it right. But, you've heard that before...
- K.
Posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 20:20:46
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by mila on August 12, 2001, at 17:47:02
mila,
Thanks for your caring response -- I have interjected my thoughts.
>
>
> i do not think that you have done it to yourself. Much of your social isolation/aloneness has been brought upon you by depression which is obviously something next to impossible to control by sheer will. The horrible paradox of depression is that it makes us avoid people, and that being surrounded by loving and caring people helps us heal and survive the depression. Those who are lucky have friends who stick with them throughout the decades of depression and rages. Others I guess have to pray that the medication will pull them out of hell and give them their extraversion back.
>I do understand that the depression has added to my isolation and aloneness. And it sure has made it difficult to reach out and make new friends here in KC (where I just moved two years ago). However, I made the very conscious decision some years ago, because of some bad advice, to cut off from a group of friends completely. That decision haunts me to this day -- in AA lingo it is a regret of the past. And, I made another decision, a good one I believe, to turn my back on fundamentalistic Christianity -- a place where I had many, many friends. Ever since those two decisions, I have never had friends the same as then.
> BHW,What does "BHW" stand for?
if I were you, I would still go out and treat myself with a nice dinner. Chat with people in bar, sit at the nice table, be served, have a small talk with the waitress, be surrounded by murmurs of other people... all this will be a relief and a gift on their own. Friends are cool, but other people around us can also be very nice to have. Just exchanging a few words or a short conversation with someone sitting on the same bench in the park has always been very pleasant to me.
I don't want you to think I am without any contacts. I actually have several people who care for me in AA and Alanon -- I think I am just reaching out to the wrong people, like this person who canceled the dinner plans. One of the only reasons I am going to AA and Alanon is for the socialization -- I have met some of the most caring, wonderful people. Also a few jerks, but I know how to duck and run. This particular friend is someone who happens to be a lesbian and I don't have too many lesbian friends. I continue to hope to make more connections in the lesbian community, so I have tried to nuture this connection. I am going to have to try other avenues.
I will be honest -- even when I am at my best, I don't do well with strangers. It takes a lot for me to talk to strangers. I admire someone like you who can talk with people you meet in a restaurant or elsewhere -- I think that is neat.
> I also happen to know a couple of gourgeous masseuses with soothing hands, melodic voices, and strong but gentle personalities. One hour on their table ... and I smile for days afterwards. my body remembers... would you like to give it a try?
>I definitely could use a massage. I have been considering that a lot lately. Do you know someone in KC? Is a masseuse always female (let me demonstrate my ignorance)?
Again, thank you for your thoughtful reply. It means a lot to me.
AKC
Posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 20:27:20
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by Willow on August 12, 2001, at 18:15:22
> Hang in there! I think once the pressures settle down for you things will brighten up. Keep a calendar count-down and at probably six weeks off effexor you'll see a big difference.
>Oh Willow -- one of the first things we did is put me back up to the dose of Effexor I was on. The idea was to put me where I was before things started going haywire -- 75 mg Effexor XR, 150 mg Topamax, 400 mg Seroquel. Then, because I was going down so quickly, she ramped up the lithium to 900 mg. The goal is the lithium is just a temporary thing. But the Effexor may be for life. I don't know if I will want to go back down that path ever again.
Your Hounddog
Posted by susan C on August 12, 2001, at 20:49:53
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
Hello AKC,
I am so glad to see you here again. You have an ability to articulate your situation so well and it continues to help me, even though you are not feeling so great. Am I being selfish?
Mila's post was very good, you are both people I look for when I read, sometimes I go back in time and just wander.
A person who gives a massage, male or female, is called a Massage Therapist. There are different styles from 'slide and glide' with massage oil like swedish massage, Hawiian(sp?), to 'deep tissue' therapeudic. Some, you take your clothes off and have a 'drape' or in the case of Rolfing (named after Ida Rolf) your clothes stay on, but the work is very deep.
My personal preference is for the strongest person I can find that has the broadest experience and does different things so I never know what to expect. If it is the same massage over and over again my body knows what to expect. I was in a car accident about two years ago and as a result of this perception, I have changed therapists three or four times.
This reminds me of the day I broke down at work and left. 1997, The first thing after making my pdoc appointment, was schedule a massage. I was such a mess. At least my body felt relaxed.
There is a german lady I know who loves to kayak. She arranges outings every weekend. She is so disappointed only 10% of the people who say they will come actually arrive. I think she has a very responsible attitude and that in general, Americans don't take promises they make very seriouusly.It is hard to find people who do what they say they are going to do.
I decided today, that when I walk, I am going to try to smile and say hello to every person who passes by.
just my $0.02
-s
> A "friend" just called. Actually, the quotations are unwarranted. This friend has a lot of baggage and it is unfair to take my baggage out on her. But being in the space I am, her call hurts. She called yesterday and suggested dinner today. Being desperate for human contact, I said yes. But today she calls and cancels because she had scheduled too much on her plate, and me, being the new kid in town, is the one to go.
>
> I spent some time last night considering what I need to do to make more human contact. My phone does not ring. That has to change. I will choose the road less traveled if I continue to have repeated depressed episodes. Actually, I have threatened my therapist and pdoc with taking my life the next time. Probably an idle threat because I doubt that I have the courage. Too many unanswered questions in my mind from my days of religion -- too many fears that the hell, fire and brimstone preaching I heard in my early twenties may be real. While intellectually I soundly reject such stuff, there is a part of me that must still believe, or I think I would just check out now. Because this pain I am in today is just not worth it. I cannot stand being alone any more. I cannot stand the phone no longer ringing. I have done this to myself -- but I don't have the patience to undo it -- nor the strength to tolerate the pain.
>
> Your lonely hounddog
Posted by Willow on August 12, 2001, at 21:42:10
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by susan C on August 12, 2001, at 20:49:53
> There is a german lady I know who loves to kayak. She arranges outings every weekend. She is so disappointed only 10% of the people who say they will come actually arrive. I think she has a very responsible attitude and that in general, Americans don't take promises they make very seriouusly.
I think it depends on how passionate you are about something. For those who suffer with depression I think it is good for them to find their passion. If it doesn't appeal then perhaps it is a way for us to guage our depression.
> I decided today, that when I walk, I am going to try to smile and say hello to every person who passes by.
My daughter hates it that I greet people. I have a friend who doesn't say hello to acquaintainces because she figures they really don't give a crap how she is doing. (With her attitude she's probably right.) I figure a quick hello and to ask the elderly neighbour how their dog is doing doesn't hurt. (You get the picture.) My neighbour is between mine and my mother's age, poor soul living next door to me. Anyway some days I think it does her good to rant. She's a director of the universe. You meet all sorts and then you find people with common interests or you end up broadening your own. It's great what a little smile can do!
Regarding the effexor, AKC, have you had depressive episodes over a period of time. Myself I've had a few since my teens, each has affected schooling and or work. I don't want my life interrupted again, I figure I'm an effexor lifer. Since you restarted it mark three weeks on the calendar and all should be well by then.
I'm counting down till the yellow bus comes, 23 more sleeps! Grandma took the girls out shopping today for school clothes.
I've been on mirapex now over a week. I had tried upping the dose like I was suppose to but side-effects were worse than benefits, so I'm back to half a tablet and today was a normal day for me, except headache and muscle tension, have to start up the baclofen. So if it takes a little yellow pill (or anyother colour) to help this momma along so what!!
Willow sprouting too many roots.
Posted by kazoo on August 12, 2001, at 23:26:08
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
> Your lonely hounddog
My dear, how can you say you're alone when you have the teeming masses here just waiting for your every beck and call?
Re. aloneness? You are not alone.
And a blurb from one who's been around the block, in addition to laying its cornerstone as well: "It's better to be alone than wishing that you were."
Chin up!
I saw this info which I though would be of particular interest to you: http://www.lexisone.com/professionaldevelopment/pdlibrary/pd073101b.html
kazoo
Posted by mila on August 12, 2001, at 23:50:08
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » mila, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 20:20:46
Hi again,
>
> I do understand that the depression has added to my isolation and aloneness. And it sure has made it difficult to reach out and make new friends here in KC (where I just moved two years ago). However, I made the very conscious decision some years ago, because of some bad advice, to cut off from a group of friends completely. That decision haunts me to this day -- in AA lingo it is a regret of the past.... wow, let me join you in your regret... do you feel like it would be wholesome to tell them now that you regret that it happened and that you have some fond memories of your times together? Maybe there is another way to forgive yourself, but I see this one as a proper way. Even if you'll never reconnect with them again, you'll get it off your chest.
> And, I made another decision, a good one I believe, to turn my back on fundamentalistic Christianity -- a place where I had many, many friends.
AKC, from the dream I had 2 days ago I got a powerful insight: people are not what they believe, they believe what they feel. You are a very passionate person and that probably made you friends with those people from church, not the shared dogma. From my personal experience I'd say that fundamentalists ( I know only Russian Ortodox and Roman Catholics) are very pure and passionate people, you can count on them in every situation. Or maybe I just got lucky. I am so greatful for all the good the church has done to my family. I get tired from ceremonies, and I do not frequent them today, but Faith is the greatest thing ever 'invented' by the humankind. It keeps the sense of the mystery alive.
> Ever since those two decisions, I have never had friends the same as then.
Do you know why? (besides moving, changing careers, and health problems?)
>
>
> > BHW,
>
> What does "BHW" stand for?Oops, a typo. I meant BTW (by the way)
>
> I don't want you to think I am without any contacts. I actually have several people who care for me in AA and Alanon -- I think I am just reaching out to the wrong people, like this person who canceled the dinner plans. One of the only reasons I am going to AA and Alanon is for the socialization -- I have met some of the most caring, wonderful people. Also a few jerks, but I know how to duck and run. This particular friend is someone who happens to be a lesbian and I don't have too many lesbian friends. I continue to hope to make more connections in the lesbian community, so I have tried to nuture this connection. I am going to have to try other avenues.
>
AKC, do everything in your power to find love. do not mind sex just for today. One of the sentences from Andrew Solomon that struck me most is where he says that sex on antidepressants is next to impossible that is unless you are deeply in love with your darling.> I will be honest -- even when I am at my best, I don't do well with strangers. It takes a lot for me to talk to strangers. I admire someone like you who can talk with people you meet in a restaurant or elsewhere -- I think that is neat.
maybe it is because I do not really perceive people from my streets as strangers. Toronto is a big city, but people who live in my area do not feel like complete strangers to me. I grew up in a village, and there the same thing happened. Half a village are 'strangers', others are 'not so strange', even if you barely know them. whoever walks my streets is easy for me to greet, for they are on my turf :)
>> I definitely could use a massage. I have been considering that a lot lately. Do you know someone in KC? Is a masseuse always female (let me demonstrate my ignorance)?
yes a masseuse is a female :) I wasn't really talking about a massage therapist. I see a difference here similar to a difference between a chef and a hospital cook. ( I am a chef myself, and when I feed patients where I volunteer a hospital food, my heart bleeds)... although not a lesbian, I sometimes crave a woman's touch, physically. It is more diffuse and nonspecific and pulls me out of my thoughts into a delicious sensual reverie. I mentioned massage by a woman to you because you are very smart, and smart people need a break, they need their body to take over once in a while. Maybe, when body starves, it aches and becomes moody. I do not know.
good night...
Posted by mila on August 13, 2001, at 7:58:40
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by susan C on August 12, 2001, at 20:49:53
> I decided today, that when I walk, I am going to try to smile and say hello to every person who passes by.
>
Hello Susan,
you are adorable. I am just passing by, and I reread you post. Thank you for you smile.Have you fully recovered from the car accident?
I also wonder whether you have ever worked with Feldenkrais practitioner? I met one once and oh boy, it was magical. The only words that describe that experience are 'I met my body for the first time'... I do not have any physical impairments (or so I thought) so he didn't even have to touch me, but I learned how to stand, sit, and walk "naturally", so that there is an amazing feeling of ease and flow...
love
mila
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 7:59:27
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by mila on August 12, 2001, at 23:50:08
milo,
> ... wow, let me join you in your regret... do you feel like it would be wholesome to tell them now that you regret that it happened and that you have some fond memories of your times together? Maybe there is another way to forgive yourself, but I see this one as a proper way. Even if you'll never reconnect with them again, you'll get it off your chest.
I have tried to locate one person. This is a good AA principle -- making amends (the 9th step). In fact, it is my understanding that she is here in KC. She was my closest friend, and I hurt her deeply with my actions. Unfortunately, she has a common last name, and I have never been able to find her.
> AKC, from the dream I had 2 days ago I got a powerful insight: people are not what they believe, they believe what they feel. You are a very passionate person and that probably made you friends with those people from church, not the shared dogma. From my personal experience I'd say that fundamentalists ( I know only Russian Ortodox and Roman Catholics) are very pure and passionate people, you can count on them in every situation. Or maybe I just got lucky. I am so greatful for all the good the church has done to my family. I get tired from ceremonies, and I do not frequent them today, but Faith is the greatest thing ever 'invented' by the humankind. It keeps the sense of the mystery alive.
>My spiritual journey has been complex. From the age of 16 to 28, I was involved in the fundamentalistic side of christianity -- not a good mix with my lesbianism. They kinda said that made me a sinner and all and would lead me on a path to hell. As you can imagine, that messed with my head. Finally, I was able to make a healthy choice, not a running away choice (I had tried that), and was able to turn away from those beliefs. Then, when I decided to get sober three years ago, I turned back to christianity as my choice of a higher power for AA. But when my mental illness got so bad 2 years ago, things got confusing again. I am now stuck in a loop -- I either believe in some sort of higher power (and not necessarily Christian) that I am very, very pissed at or I don't believe at all. It is difficult and confusing for me right now. And it is hard to be at AA and Alanon because those are very spiritual based programs.
> > Ever since those two decisions, I have never had friends the same as then.
>
> Do you know why? (besides moving, changing careers, and health problems?)Those three are the big reasons, but I think there is much more. I think I am having some big trust issues. I think some big stuff from my childhood is really raising its ugly head right now -- more so than ever.
> >
> AKC, do everything in your power to find love. do not mind sex just for today. One of the sentences from Andrew Solomon that struck me most is where he says that sex on antidepressants is next to impossible that is unless you are deeply in love with your darling.
>I am determined to finish that book! < g > (I'm still at page 110 - I haven't read at all since this spell has started). Trust me, sex is not even an issue right now. Ever since I have been on Effexor, I have had absolutely no libido (I shake my head in wonderment that Willow's sex drive has increased on this med!). I think my romantic notion that I have fixated upon is the idea that there is someone for me that can hold me at night when I need to be held. That is what I am so desparate for right now -- and something I have never had.
>
> yes a masseuse is a female :)I asked because I am uneasy about having a man touch my body. While my dad only physically abused me, I still have issues with certain types of contact. So how do I go about finding a masseuse versus a massage therapist?
AKC
Posted by mila on August 13, 2001, at 8:34:24
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » mila, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 7:59:27
> So how do I go about finding a masseuse versus a massage therapist?
In a spa where they are sensual pleasure, delight, and beauty oriented, rather than sickness-repair oriented?
... I'll get back to you later this evening to talk if I may, have to hit the books now, tonight is my final on perception.
good morning to you :)
mila
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 10:24:09
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 16:00:32
> Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!
re: Fundamental Christianity - I was raised as a fundamentalist, and decided at 18 that I simply no longer believed that Christ was the only way to "God." Since then, I have realized that it is not a "friendly" religion in its entirety, though there are some very sincere and wonderful people who are a part of it (including my parents). I have gone through the atheist quandry and am now an agnostic for whatever that is worth.
I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.
So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
(Now let's see if I can take my own advice.:))
- K.
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 11:24:32
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 10:24:09
Hi, everybody,
This is really getting into a group discussion...let's see,The recovery from whiplash has been slow, but now, in the last month or two, seems to be better. I am hoping I can go to settlement with in a couple of months.
Finding a non-therapeudic massage, There are Spas, with wraps and mud facials and etc. Those are fun and very feminine. Often, a Massage Therapist (man or woman) is state licenced and has that name because of state licencing and the desire of the industry to remove themselves from ahem! other types of 'massage' Amost any therapist/massage person will and can do different kinds. They have a repertoire. You can look up Massage in the yellow pages. I have a problem, or let's say challenge with having guys give me massages, though my husband likes it when I get home.lol. He needs to give me more massages.
I have heard of Feldenkrist, and cranial sacrail and I haven't tried them yet. I am going through the 10 rolfings again, and that seems to be helping the areas of pain and my balance. Plus swim exercise and walking and losing weight. This is hard work.
Christianity and going to church. My understanding is the first and most left wing of the protestant churches is the United Church of Christ, Congregational. It was the first, as I undersand, to openly accept all sexual orientation as members and clergy. The one in our town is full of educators and very conscientious(sp?) people. I grew up in a medical family, my dad was raised strict southern baptist, my mother norwegian luthern, both from small farming towns. They swore they would never live in a small town and chose Congregational church for us to go to...which we kind-of did. Dad was really an agnostic. Mom now goes to the Episciple (sp?) church, because she likes the peole there. When my kids were little, my husband had not been baptised, and he did not really have an opinion, so we tried out lots, mormons (those nice boys in suits and ties always came by on their bikes in the spring) some other 'american' religions, presbertian(sp?) and congregational. When the boys got to be about 7 or so, we all lost interest.
I am a joiner when I am manic, a recluse when I am depressed.
I have lived in the same town for 31 years. I am always amazed that I don't see people who have lived here just as long. I have moved 5 times and after the 2nd time I noticed it took about two years for me and the neighbors to get to know each other. You know, passing by, happening to go out for the mail at the same time, asking for a cup of sugar or an egg, watch the place while on vacation, meet while mowing the lawn, or appreciating a sunset.
> > Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!I agree,
-s
>
> re: Fundamental Christianity - I was raised as a fundamentalist, and decided at 18 that I simply no longer believed that Christ was the only way to "God." Since then, I have realized that it is not a "friendly" religion in its entirety, though there are some very sincere and wonderful people who are a part of it (including my parents). I have gone through the atheist quandry and am now an agnostic for whatever that is worth.
>
> I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
>
> I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
>
> I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
>
> We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.
>
> So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
>
> It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
>
> (Now let's see if I can take my own advice.:))
>
> - K.
Posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 11:34:42
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
Have you heard about SOS – Secular Organizations for Sobriety? They have self-help groups for people addicted to alcohol or other substances. They don't talk about a higher power or require any spiritual beliefs.
Their website is: http://www.secularhumanism.org/sos/
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:24:08
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 10:24:09
> > Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!
>
>
> I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
>The AA thing is a interesting thing for me right now. I am not working the program, that is the steps. I don't know if I would go if I did not have to. As part of my deal with the Supreme Courts of Missouri and Kansas to get my law licenses, I have agreed to go to two meetings a week. I have to get a form signed and all. This is worse than any court-ordered dwi type thing. And I have never seen any other lawyer have to do this. I have to believe it is not my drinking that landed me in this. I think it is my mental illness. When this all happened two years ago (for Missouri which Kansas piggy-backed on last year), I was in the midst of suicidal hell. I had no energy (nor funds) to fight the battle. Nor have I since then.
So I make the best of it. I find those in AA and Alanon right now I want to know better. And I try to avoid those who would preach to me. Like Saturday morning, I had those saying you just got fake it til you make it, talking about God and prayer and so forth. One of my newer friends, a lesbian, actual said some of that. I called her later and had a long talk about where I am at. I think she heard - she shared with me her 7 years out of the program and all.
> I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
>
> I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
I am definitely not going back to my friends from the church past. I don't owe any amends there. The friend I do owe is from my lesbian past -- who my church said I had to cut off. The AA thing for me works on this issue -- but I also think on this one, if it is to happen it will. I haven't spent any time on it in a long while. Please noone -- don't slap K's hands! :)
>
> We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.Use Away!!
>
> So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
>
> It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
>The work things is the problem. But I'll save that for another post.
Thanks for your thoughts -- keep them coming. They are helping me think clearer.
AKC
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:39:04
In reply to secular group, posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 11:34:42
> Have you heard about SOS – Secular Organizations for Sobriety? They have self-help groups for people addicted to alcohol or other substances. They don't talk about a higher power or require any spiritual beliefs.
>
> Their website is: http://www.secularhumanism.org/sos/calla,
Thanks. I have -- I am unaware of any of their groups locally. And unfortunately, even if there was a group, it would not "count" for my licensing requirement. Alanon doesn't even count.
I do think for those who don't want to believe in a higher power concept, this type of organization needs to grow and be more available.
I have to be honest -- I don't think that is where I am headed. When I am at my most honest, usually at my Tuesday evening Alanon group, a group of people I feel more connected with than any, I can admit that there is something more than just the dirt around me that holds us together. I'm refusing to name that something most days. And I am pretty sure that something when it is named will look quite different than those christian beliefs I once held. But between here and there I have a lot of anger I have to process. And I am just needing people in the AA and Alanon groups I go to to not preach -- actually, even when I find a power I can reach out to, I still won't want the preaching. I want to be one that accepts others and feels accepted by others.
AKC
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 12:40:14
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:24:08
Life is like a pie, it is only so big and the more pieces you cut it into, the smaller each piece is.
And I like BIG pieces of pie.
-Susan C.
> > > Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!
> >
> >
> > I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
> >
>
> The AA thing is a interesting thing for me right now. I am not working the program, that is the steps. I don't know if I would go if I did not have to. As part of my deal with the Supreme Courts of Missouri and Kansas to get my law licenses, I have agreed to go to two meetings a week. I have to get a form signed and all. This is worse than any court-ordered dwi type thing. And I have never seen any other lawyer have to do this. I have to believe it is not my drinking that landed me in this. I think it is my mental illness. When this all happened two years ago (for Missouri which Kansas piggy-backed on last year), I was in the midst of suicidal hell. I had no energy (nor funds) to fight the battle. Nor have I since then.
>
> So I make the best of it. I find those in AA and Alanon right now I want to know better. And I try to avoid those who would preach to me. Like Saturday morning, I had those saying you just got fake it til you make it, talking about God and prayer and so forth. One of my newer friends, a lesbian, actual said some of that. I called her later and had a long talk about where I am at. I think she heard - she shared with me her 7 years out of the program and all.
>
> > I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
> >
> > I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
>
>
> I am definitely not going back to my friends from the church past. I don't owe any amends there. The friend I do owe is from my lesbian past -- who my church said I had to cut off. The AA thing for me works on this issue -- but I also think on this one, if it is to happen it will. I haven't spent any time on it in a long while. Please noone -- don't slap K's hands! :)
>
>
> >
> > We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.
>
> Use Away!!
>
> >
> > So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
> >
> > It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
> >
>
> The work things is the problem. But I'll save that for another post.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts -- keep them coming. They are helping me think clearer.
>
> AKC
Posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 13:11:28
In reply to Re: secular group, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:39:04
AKC –
How can the state require you to attend a group that's based on a spiritual belief system? Isn't there something wrong with that picture?
By the way, I have spiritual beliefs myself, although I'm not religious (I find it easier to picture God as female, for one thing—the male God of my childhood is a cold, unloving image to me and associated with judgmentalism and repression). I just wouldn't want beliefs imposed on me by any public or private entity.
The ideal group to me would be one where the members could talk about their spiritual beliefs if they had any and how their beliefs supported their recovery, but where those without a spiritual orientation would be on equal footing. Everyone (ideally) would feel accepted and respected regardless of their beliefs or how much they chose to discuss them.
I think in SOS the participants are free to talk about anything—spiritual or not—although I'm not an expert on that group. I don't have addiction issues but went to an SOS meeting to see how its format might apply to other mental health issues. I was impressed by what I observed and learned about it.
calla
> calla,
>
> Thanks. I have -- I am unaware of any of their groups locally. And unfortunately, even if there was a group, it would not "count" for my licensing requirement. Alanon doesn't even count.
>
> I do think for those who don't want to believe in a higher power concept, this type of organization needs to grow and be more available.
>
> I have to be honest -- I don't think that is where I am headed. When I am at my most honest, usually at my Tuesday evening Alanon group, a group of people I feel more connected with than any, I can admit that there is something more than just the dirt around me that holds us together. I'm refusing to name that something most days. And I am pretty sure that something when it is named will look quite different than those christian beliefs I once held. But between here and there I have a lot of anger I have to process. And I am just needing people in the AA and Alanon groups I go to to not preach -- actually, even when I find a power I can reach out to, I still won't want the preaching. I want to be one that accepts others and feels accepted by others.
>
> AKC
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:05:10
In reply to Life is like a pie, posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 12:40:14
> An apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese on top. Mmmm..
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:08:09
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:24:08
O.K. I am not preaching! Please don't slap my hand. ;)
I have found the philosophy of Taoism to be very helpful these last few months, specifically, the Tao of Pooh, which I've read many times. It's so light and easy on the mind.
Many of the Taoists books I've picked up do wander into mysticism toward the end, but you can fetter that out.
- K.
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 14:19:57
In reply to Re: Life is like a pie, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:05:10
> > An apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese on top. Mmmm..
just slightly, every so slightly, melting....yummm
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.