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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 62 to 86 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 13, 2014, at 3:07:56
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
> If you're actually here for me, can you possibly explain to me how this could happen? How can someone who loved me as a therapy-daughter let this happen? Even if he isn't able to contact me, isn't it possible for him to have someone else contact me for him?
>
> Is it just because I'm no longer useful to him? Does caring depend on usefulness?Maybe I'm confused, but didn't he have someone else contact you for him?
You know how flight attendants tell you to secure your own mask before helping others? Of course I don't know what's really going on with him, but maybe right now he's securing his own mask. Which wouldn't mean you're no longer useful, or he doesn't care.
Bob
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:18:42
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
> I'm reminded of when I went AWOL here. Maybe even more disturbing than hearing from an impersonal note was not hearing anything.
>
> BobYou know, while I appreciate your concern, I resent your bringing Babble Administration into my current crisis. It just reminds me of some of the last work my therapist and I did together.
He said that it would be one thing if you had set up a website where sh*t being thrown at one was considered a good healthy road to growth. But that you didn't do that. You provided a place where incivility was not tolerated, and where we could feel safe. You let us grow to be involved in that place, and then you took it away from us. You unilaterally decided that the best thing is for people to learn to be tolerant of sh*t being thrown at them, and that compassion should be the response to sh*t throwers, while their victims were told, more or less, to suck it up. You were once intolerant, not of uncivil people, but of incivility. But you are now equally intolerant, not of sensitive people, but of the inability to handle sh*t being thrown at them or seeing sh*t thrown at others. You provided a place for us, then you yanked it out from under us. He didn't think this was a healthy place for me to be either from the point of a board philosophy or in terms of consistency and stability.
I was afraid to return, needlessly thus far, because I just can't handle any sh*t right now.
Whatever my therapist may have done, he at least never returned from vacation thinking that what I really needed as a therapist was Dr. Phil, and acting accordingly on a unilateral basis. It'd be fine if he were Dr. Phil to begin with. But it would not be fine if he decided midcourse to change his approach so radically.
I'm actually hoping that there's more involved here than his taking care of himself. Therapists have a greater responsibility to those who rely on them than that. Hell, *I* have a greater responsibility to others than that. It would be fine if he couldn't deal with interacting with me right now. But it's not fine if he has the oxygen to write an impersonal email, to record a voice message, but doesn't bother to write a couple of sentences to someone he has known for twenty years, someone he knows does (and that he has allowed to) see him as a parent.
I hope there's more to it than that. He recognizes, at least when not under pressure, the responsibility a therapist has to a client. And that a board administrator, if you wish to bring yourself into this, has to a board.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:29:31
In reply to Re: It hurts so much » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 12, 2014, at 16:21:18
Bizarre really, isn't it?
I don't handle stress or small crises at all well, and am known to fall apart after one. Or tolerate for a time then blow up and become a mess. But I can generally (except perhaps in medical situations) become very still and deliberate when I need to be. I don't ever remember forgetting my responsibilities to such a large degree. When I broke my arm my greatest concern was being able to do my work.
And yet he had an absolute genius and sort of a fearlessness in being authentic *within* the therapy room. In the space between us. I think that's what I needed to get better. The authenticity in that space. The lack of pretense or artificiality *in that space*, no matter how artificial the relationship may have been.
In fact, I suppose I know that *in that space* he does care about me. But he's not in that space now, and I have far less faith in his caring about me at all if I'm not directly in front of him.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:33:18
In reply to Re: It hurts so much » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Poet on March 12, 2014, at 20:30:36
I suppose I'll find out today if it's anything more than a lack of caring on his side. I'm so anxious that I just hope I'll be able to leave the restroom for long enough to find out. (TMI, I know)
Keep your fingers crossed for his being *unable* to contact me.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:38:50
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by baseball55 on March 12, 2014, at 19:46:32
I do, but I don't want to intrude. That's about the only thing I was able to discover from my obsessive google search for reasons. Not that it was any help in that, but it did crop up incidentally.
I think I'll ask today what might be appropriate. Referred therapist might know.
I already sent a return email to him assuring him of my prayers, love and good wishes. I got the vacation message about not being able to take on any new patients right now (with no mention of current patients at all). I don't know if he will ever read his back emails.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 15:38:04
In reply to Re: He's not dying » baseball55, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:38:50
At this point, any information you can get should help you regain your equilibrium. I feel certain that every one of us who is in intensive therapy would react and feel just as you did. It's just shocking, and your reaction is what any attached, caring client would have. Feeling as you do means you have done a wonderful job as his client, and, also, despite the present nightmare, he has also done a wonderful job in helping to create a relationship where growth could occur.
Be sure to let us know what you do find out.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 19:26:09
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 15:38:04
I can't believe she called me in. The only additional information she had was that she didn't think he'd be coming back.
At first she was going with the fact that if he was able to make a phone call, he could have written a couple of lines to me. That it wasn't unreasonable of me to feel rejected. That it was his choice. After I went into strong hysterics, she backtracked a bit and ever so slightly led me to believe my guesses weren't wrong, and even said he might call me some day. But how can I trust anything she said when she was trying to get me safe enough to leave.
What kind of therapist is she to think "he's not coming back" and "he chose not to call you" would be beneficial. And " lots of therapists seem to do things like this."
I wasn't overly nice. I asked her to quit the therapist speak, when she was reflecting back what I said, or naming my quite obvious emotions. I told her I didn't want a hug. I don't think I so much as shook my therapist's hand for the first five years of therapy. I hate social hugging. Why would I want a complete stranger to hug me.
I don't think I can hear things like "you are feeling upset" without having to suppress a rude "ya think!!!!"
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 19:42:17
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 19:26:09
My goodness, Dinah. It upset ME a lot to read what she said. I think I would have felt more anxious and rejected hearing those vague, upsetting generalities. It's also sort of disrespectful to you, because you need information to begin processing what's happened. And who wants a hug from a stranger?
Do you thnk she knew more than she was telling you? Are there other sources to get information from?
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 19:51:37
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 19:42:17
She knows, tho she said her knowledge is from the grapevine. So there is a whole grapevine out there, but it's confidential to me.
I called the office building where he works. They said he hadn't closed his office and suggested I call his cell. So maybe the grapevine doesn't extend that far. My google searches only brought up things it wasn't, not what it was.
Other than hiring a private investigator or calling his wife, I'm at a loss. And both seem too intrusive.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 19:58:44
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 19:42:17
I feel pretty sure you are going to find out - both what happened and what he plans for the future, if anything. But I guess not for a while.
It's starting to sound like he might have closed his practice without allowing anyone to say goodbye.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 19:59:10
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 19:51:37
Not that I really need or want to know the particulars. I want to know if he could have sent a personal note but chose not to, or if he wasn't able to. I want to know if he ever will be able to. I want to know if the last I will have ever heard from him was a sort of verbal "moving along handshake" when he called to check on my cancellation. I want to know if he actually cares about me. I want to know if twenty years of convincing me to extend myself from my protective shell were based on a lie.
I want to know how someone I love like a parent could disappear from my life after twenty years of working and fighting to relationship.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 20:07:23
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 19:59:10
Yes, exactly. You need and deserve to know all those things, so that you can carry the sense of having been cared about with you without any doubts. After a while, you might let him know what you need and want from him.
Posted by baseball55 on March 13, 2014, at 20:59:58
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 20:07:23
I don't mean to be critical Dinah and I understand the frustration and anger and abandonment you feel, but you have to consider that maybe he is physically and mentally unable to deal with patients right now Maybe he just needs to take care of himself right now and limit his interactions to friends and family who will take care of him and make no emotional demands.
You seem so angry and hurt and this is understandable. But ask yourself how you would feel if he were seriously ill or disabled or suffering. Do you want to be the sort of person who attends only to her own feelings and doesn't consider his suffering?
If this happened to me (and I know one day it will and it will be hard and painful), I would try to tell myself that he needs to take care of himself right now and cannot take care of me. I hope I can be this selfless.
The therapeutic relationship is fraught. It's a real relationship, filled with trust and caring and genuine love. But it's not the same as a real personal relationship, because it's one-sided and circumscribed by therapeutic boundaries.
See if you can let go of the anger and hurt and imagine caring for him in his time of need by sending loving-kindness his way.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 21:40:11
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by baseball55 on March 13, 2014, at 20:59:58
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 21:41:10
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by baseball55 on March 13, 2014, at 20:59:58
You do make very good points, and they do express the most constructive way to go, but, although Dinah is utilizing Babble as a safe place to express her hurt and shock, she has also been caring during this time, sending him a note expressing her love, concern and prayers for him. She seems most of all to want to retain a sense of his caring while trying to find out what happened. I do think that a more personal, caring message, from him or someone close to him, would have helped a lot- helped him, too.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on March 13, 2014, at 21:51:04
In reply to And that's it for me, guys. Bye. (nm), posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 21:40:11
((((Dinah))))
I'm sorry he's gone missing like this. It sucks.
I'd have an awful hard time too. :-(
It's not a lie, of course, the relationship, but it's weird not to communicate a bit more.
sleepysid.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 21:52:28
In reply to And that's it for me, guys. Bye. (nm), posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 21:40:11
Posted by Phillipa on March 13, 2014, at 22:11:36
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by baseball55 on March 13, 2014, at 20:59:58
Baseball I agree with you. If you were sick or ill the guilt alone must be hard for a caring therapist and knowing he's unable to do what many of his patients might want. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on March 13, 2014, at 22:42:21
In reply to And that's it for me, guys. Bye. (nm), posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 21:40:11
Hi, Dinah Seeks Support.
No need to respond.
Most of this is written out of ignorance, but with good intentions.
I can empathize with and relate to you to some degree, but not nearly as much as would be necessary for me to fully appreciate how disorienting this must be for you. I have never had psychodynamic or psychoanalytic therapies such that I should become attached to and enmeshed with the therapist. I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't know how to make you feel better. I want to. Maybe you have to come to feel better on your own. I don't know.
I think that people here are giving you good advice and unconditional support. Is there anything that would soothe you except to reconnect with your therapist? I wonder if your therapist gave you the tools that would help you get through this situation. It would be a paradox of sorts. Would he be proud of you should you begin to use what he taught you? I don't know.
How very disorienting. The world must not seem real.
Try to manage your anxiety if you can. It will help prevent derealization.
- Scott
Posted by Willful on March 13, 2014, at 23:33:52
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by baseball55 on March 13, 2014, at 20:59:58
I have to disagree with you baseball55,
No matter how sick her T is, Dinah has the right also to take care of herself-- which involves expressing and working with the complexity and painfulness of many of her reactions. While it's great to send someone loving kindness-- and Dinah was saying many times that she did, too-- she was also saying that she had many other reactions, of needing to hear from him, of needing to feel that for these many years his caring had been real, that she mattered-- and that he was aware-- as a way of being there with her-- that it would be devastating for her that he needed suddenly to abandon her.
I"m not saying that a therapist can write personal notes to 20 patients when she or he is very sick-- but there can be a thoughtful and caring communication to those few, or one, who have put so much into the relationship.
And I don't think that Dinah is being selfish in this. I guess that's what you seem to be implying ( to me anyway). She does have the right to be angry and hurt, and disappointed-- and even to reject the relationship for a time. I hope she finds her way back to remembering the good things---for her sake- because they could be sustaining-- but I understand greatly why it's difficult if not almost impossible to find them right away.
We need to accept the complexity of her (and our) feelings, and the primal sense of abandonment that some people particularly feel devastating-- leaving only the loved person's absence.
I 'm sure you were trying to point the way to something that could bring some relief-- but also no one can put a time-limit on someone else's working through of feelings of grief and loss.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 14, 2014, at 10:12:04
In reply to My therapist on extended leave, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 7, 2014, at 20:23:20
Dinah, I do hope you will continue posting about this, or any other, situation. There is a lot of caring and support for you here, because of how much you have given to others over the years.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2014, at 15:16:41
In reply to Re: He's not dying » baseball55, posted by Willful on March 13, 2014, at 23:33:52
> Dinah is utilizing Babble as a safe place to express her hurt and shock
>
> Twinleaf> Dinah has the right also to take care of herself-- which involves expressing and working with the complexity and painfulness of many of her reactions. ... she was also saying ... that it would be devastating for her that he needed suddenly to abandon her.
>
> She does have the right to be angry and hurt, and disappointed-- and even to reject the relationship for a time.
>
> We need to accept the complexity of her (and our) feelings, and the primal sense of abandonment that some people particularly feel devastating-- leaving only the loved person's absence.
>
> WillfulThanks, I found that a helpful way of seeing what's going on. Maybe the Support that Dinah Seeks, right now, anyway, is understanding and empathy, not what might feel like "excuses" for her T's behavior. I'm going to respond to an earlier post, but I'll start a different thread for that.
Bob
Posted by sleepygirl2 on March 14, 2014, at 20:36:54
In reply to Re: Support is what Dinah Seeks, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2014, at 15:16:41
> > Dinah is utilizing Babble as a safe place to express her hurt and shock
> >
> > Twinleaf
>
> > Dinah has the right also to take care of herself-- which involves expressing and working with the complexity and painfulness of many of her reactions. ... she was also saying ... that it would be devastating for her that he needed suddenly to abandon her.
> >
> > She does have the right to be angry and hurt, and disappointed-- and even to reject the relationship for a time.
> >
> > We need to accept the complexity of her (and our) feelings, and the primal sense of abandonment that some people particularly feel devastating-- leaving only the loved person's absence.
> >
> > Willful
>
> Thanks, I found that a helpful way of seeing what's going on. Maybe the Support that Dinah Seeks, right now, anyway, is understanding and empathy, not what might feel like "excuses" for her T's behavior. I'm going to respond to an earlier post, but I'll start a different thread for that.
>
> BobSeriously, this is not a good time to rationalize things.
Dinah knows how to rationalize.
We're all dependent to some extent, of course we can see our t's as separate people, but we attach, so we feel attached. When anyone is important to you, and they disappear without explanation, you'll miss them dearly.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2014, at 16:35:16
In reply to Re: Support is what Dinah Seeks » Dr. Bob, posted by sleepygirl2 on March 14, 2014, at 20:36:54
So I didn't follow all of this...
But I got to thinking... Remembering... Around the time of hurricane Katrina. How things fell apart for a lot of people. How you held things together really well. Better than your therapist, even, ha. Better than most people. How you do that on the boards sometimes, too. Hold things together. Find your calm. In the storm.
I think I have that tendency sometimes, too. I think. I see a little bit of that in me. I wonder if it comes from living in a state of almost chronic alarm most of the time. People might think that we don't have good coping skills because of living a lot of our lives in crisis... But then when something external sends other people into that same state of physiological arousal the person who is used to it functions best.
I don't know if that makes sense. Or whether it is true or not. But it helps me think about the lab... Helps me feel better about it. I was totally focused. for 2 hours. Until I realised I needed to do calculations on something I forgot to write down (thought that was what the pre-lab was for) and that I needed to double the scale on the x axis which would have made the numbers align... oddly... with the little squares on the graph paper and i mentally gave up on the math. That's a pretty good first effort. It... Won't get any harder than that, actually.
I sort of imagining your therapist pulling things back together in a little time... Seeing sense. Or something. Anyway... Not sure if I'm up to speed on things... Or making an awful lot of sense... But I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this storm, too, comes to pass.
Posted by baseball55 on March 16, 2014, at 20:28:05
In reply to And that's it for me, guys. Bye. (nm), posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 21:40:11
I'm sorry Dinah. Did my post drive you away? I certainly hope not. I did not mean to be hurtful. When you write about your T, I can't seem to help applying it to myself and my relationship with my T, whom, I have said many times on this board, I love and feel deeply attached to. He's in his mid-70s and I think a lot about how I would handle the kind of situation you are in. The call or letter one day that he is curbing his practice for personal, health reasons.
It terrifies me and I try to imagine how I can handle it, how I can come to peace with it.So I think I just project my own imagined responses to you.
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