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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:13:31
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 9:50:40
> LOL OK so I'm not the only one! The brain zaps feel a lot like little quick thrills of excitement to me.
>
> BTW I'm new here and cannot comprehend any logic in the way the threads are organized. I'm responding to tripperjoe's post titled STOPPING Effexor made easy but now it's using my title "effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me"
>
> > I love effexor withdrawal. Its just like being drunk for weeks on end without having to gulp down a quart of vodka a day. I take my usual dose for a week, then two weeks off, then back to my dosing. The visuals are great, and remind me of my first year of college and LSD.. yumm. It is ironic that you cant buy a joint, but they will let you pop these bad boys.. Gotta love the capitalists eh..
>
>In reference to the above posting.........
GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever actually gulped down a quart of vodka a day? I HAVE, I'm in recovery now, thank God and it's NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
Reminds me of something I heard at a meeting once about people wanting to drink like "normal" people. Well, "normal" people stop drinking when they get that out of control feeling, "normal" people would rather be control of themselves. Us alcoholics actually feel more in control when we drink. "I dance better...I screw better...I drive better..." And how about those vodka muscles? Sad to see a loud-mouth drunk get his a** kicked AND still run his/her mouth before passing out.
Posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:22:35
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 0:14:28
Pablo, no disrespect or criticism here, but have you ever considered your problem might be alcohol?
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:31:01
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:13:31
I'm a calm steady drinker. Never get wild. The liquor just relaxes me & I'm fine drinking a bottle & a half of wine every night. Toward the end I realize it's way more than I need but just keep filling the glass. Sometimes staggering on my way to bed.
If I don't drink or smoke weed I get this icky spacey feeling. Never had withdrawal more than the first few days of anxiety. When I drink I can relax and actually feel good rather than being anxious and dissatisfied with life. Weed is a wonderful creative euphoric for me but turns me into an incapacitated space cadet as I've become middle aged. I want to smoke it all day and that doesn't work any more.
> > LOL OK so I'm not the only one! The brain zaps feel a lot like little quick thrills of excitement to me.
> >
>
> In reference to the above posting.........
> GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever actually gulped down a quart of vodka a day? I HAVE, I'm in recovery now, thank God and it's NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
> Reminds me of something I heard at a meeting once about people wanting to drink like "normal" people. Well, "normal" people stop drinking when they get that out of control feeling, "normal" people would rather be control of themselves. Us alcoholics actually feel more in control when we drink. "I dance better...I screw better...I drive better..." And how about those vodka muscles? Sad to see a loud-mouth drunk get his a** kicked AND still run his/her mouth before passing out.
>
>
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:38:54
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:22:35
Yes, that's certainly very likely the core problem. I suppose it would be wise to try a rehab program with healthy eating and such. Don't know how long I'd need to try that to feel better. I've quit for a week or so with little problem but end up really preferring to drink or something. The Effexor was initially narcotic enough for me to greatly reduce drinking.
I used to smoke pot in highschool constantly to feel 'normal'. That gradually converted to drinking. I never cared for speed, downers or those. I've been maybe a month straight many times through my life and never really felt wonderful that way either.
> Pablo, no disrespect or criticism here, but have you ever considered your problem might be alcohol?
Posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 12:07:16
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:38:54
Well, I am an alcoholic in recovery. I have 1-1/2 years sober now. A rehab usually is 28 days, only you know if you'd really need that, but if you're serious about stopping drinking that's the best place to start. You will be educated on alcoholism, taught how to begin dealing with life on life's terms et cetera. Obviously you have other issues as well, as do I. I don't know if I drank because of the depression or vice versa, but when I finally accepted the depression and went on meds (of course without drinking) I was able to get a grip on the alcoholism and REALLY work on ME. Now, if you've read my other posts, I'm almost off the meds, too. My life is good now. I can't begin to tell you the hell I've been in with alcoholism and depression combo.
Good luck to you. Any questions, feel free to ask
Posted by semi-conscious on July 10, 2004, at 12:18:12
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:31:01
>>
>DEAR PABLOL,
YOU'RE ADDICTED TO ALCOHOL AND WEED. ALCOHOL AND WEED INTERFERE WITH THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ANY ANTI-DEPRESSANT. IT WOULD ALSO KEEP YOU FROM EXPERIENCING THE SAME TYPES OF WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS THAT OTHERS HAVE. YOU ARE PROBABLY DUAL-DIAGNOSIS. YOU HAVE THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION AS WELL AS DEPRESSION. YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER FROM EITHER UNLESS YOU ADDRESS THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME. LOVE, TAYLOR
I'm a calm steady drinker. Never get wild. The liquor just relaxes me & I'm fine drinking a bottle & a half of wine every night. Toward the end I realize it's way more than I need but just keep filling the glass. Sometimes staggering on my way to bed.
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 14:51:54
In reply to Re: Discontinuation Syndrome, posted by KaraS on July 10, 2004, at 0:34:44
> > Hi. I'm pretty 'lost' feeling right know; my brain isn't getting this.
> >
> > A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME.....
> >
> > What does that mean?
>
> "A Rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."
>
> In other words, they can call it whatever they want - they can say that getting off of some of these antidepressants is "discontinuation syndrome" not addiction withdrawal, but it's still feels just as much like Hell!So true! Thank you!
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:38:34
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 0:14:28
Yes my anxiety is less on Effexor-XR, but I feel a bit numb too. What is Dexadrine? Do docs ever prescribe some sort of a stimulant type drug. I've always been a perfectionist about my housekeeping, now it is clean, but cluttered, and it doesn't even bother me. I can cry a little. I can laugh less. What are the things in the brain that help w/ this I don't give a ____ attitude', I wonder? Anyone w/ ideas?
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:52:55
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 10:12:30
I have night sweats on Effexor-XR.
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 21:04:13
In reply to Night Sweats - Effexor-XR » pablo1, posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:52:55
> I have night sweats on Effexor-XR.
I also got night sweats. Sometimes the pillow was soaked. It seemed they got a little better over the course of 7 weeks at 75mg. Unfortunately I woke up several times per night to pee with my mind racing and arose early. I think the mild withdrawal is like a hyper rebound and there was an up down cycle at night too awake and napy in the day (which finally had begun to improve. I'd almost venture to say I'm coming out of this in a manic cycle that I've never really had before.
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 21:26:31
In reply to Effexor-XR - Emotions Dulled » pablo1, posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:38:34
Dexadrine is an ADD stimulant like Ritalin. If you are neat and anxiety is a big problem it's not for you. I'm anxious and messy... and of course depressed Ha!
The current pdoc diagnosis is
(in the following order):
1. repressed anxiety (obsessive avoidance)
2. depression (repressed anger)
3. inattentive ADD (impractical creativity)so I thought the Xyrem could allow me to explore my hidden anxiety and depression without worry and genuinely relax and sleep like a baby then a dopamine rush rebound for energy. Ordinarily I struggle to remain calm bottling up my anxiety and am not able to feel much. The Effexor relaxed the anxiety that kept me bottled up and defensive but certainly didn't alow me to explore my feelings. If my depression is bottled up anger, I still have no clue and can't get in touch with any of that. I sobbed for a couple weeks before effexor because of a divorce, then once going on effexor I was immediately calm and pleasant (weird). It's supposed to be easy to cry and feel things on Xyrem and is supposed to give a healing restful sleep leaving you refreshed and having loosened up, let it all out.
> Yes my anxiety is less on Effexor-XR, but I feel a bit numb too. What is Dexadrine? Do docs ever prescribe some sort of a stimulant type drug. I've always been a perfectionist about my housekeeping, now it is clean, but cluttered, and it doesn't even bother me. I can cry a little. I can laugh less. What are the things in the brain that help w/ this I don't give a ____ attitude', I wonder? Anyone w/ ideas?
Posted by Corafree on July 11, 2004, at 0:16:33
In reply to Xyrem - Why isn't anyone curious?, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 21:26:31
Like I said, I feel like a zombie on Effexor-XR, but I guess everyone (I don't mean you guys), but me, likes that. I miss 'feeling'. I have night sweats. How do you bottle up anxiety? Anxiety for me is an awful unsureness, like something's missing, something's wrong, or going to go wrong, and worry that maybe I'll have a panic attack (and won't die!). I mean if I could bottle that up, I'd quit the Effexor-XR in a heartbeat! I unfortunately was turned over to a new doc a few mos. back and he is d.c.ing my Klonopin. So, I am forced to take the next best thing, and, for me, no anti-depressant ever (and I've been on pretty much all of them) has calmed anxiety like Effexor-XR does. Sounds like you may be a poor metabolizer; if you feel a change for the worse during the daytime, actually right before that point, it is my belief, at that same time everyday you should have a small follow-up dose of Effexor-XR, like 37.5mg. That fixed me. I couldn't understand why I was fine in the a.m. and afternoon to early eve was horrible. Poor metabolizers gobble up too much and its gone! And, please tell me, what is Xyrem? Good night and thanks.
Posted by pablo1 on July 11, 2004, at 1:57:50
In reply to Re: Xyrem - Why isn't anyone curious? » pablo1, posted by Corafree on July 11, 2004, at 0:16:33
Based on my recent reading on the net... Xyrem is an unusual central nervous system depressant that creates empathy, sexual and emotional inhibition/openness and guarantees normal healthy sleep (although for only a few hours). It is only prescribed in the US for narcolepsy (spontaneous daytime sleep disorder). There are no unpleasant side effects at therapeutic doses (unless abused recreationally 24/7 every 2 hours for many months (which happens to people and is awful)). It is used in Europe as an anesthetic/relaxant in higher doses. It puts you to sleep quickly and soundly through rich REM and deep sleep cycles like normal healthy sleep. In smaller doses it is euphoric like drinking but more touchy-feely and with no hangover. It is used in Europe for heroine withdrawl also. It was popular in the US in the rave scene as a party drug and gained a bad reputation for making people pass out on the dance floor mixed with alcohol and get sent to the emergency room in a supposed 'coma' (anesthetised into deep unrousable sleep). It also gained an idiotic reputation as a date rape drug. It is very illegal now in the US except for treatment of narcolepsy. There is the hope that it could be prescribed off-label for depression, anxiety and addiction withdrawl treatment but it is so highly regulated that that is difficult. There is the suspicion that the pharmaceutical industry has promoted it's demonization.
As I understand, it gives you a short acting powerful serotonin/SSRI-like boost for a couple hours then you get a lingering dopamine boost energetic after-effect. For addicts or even for short term treatment three times a day, the dopamine boost may cause anxiety/withdrawl and a short course of long-acting opiates like klonopin can be used to ease that Ritalin/speed effect. As a sleep aide it may not be all that great as there is a tendency to get the speed rush when it wears off and have to wake up and re-dose. I tend to think it'sbetter for short term intensive daytime treatment followed up by long term maintenance usage which would equate to maybe something like a once a week martini.
One might argue that opium at similar doses could have a similar effect if moderated.
What do you mean by "poor metabolizer"? From your explanation I'm metabolizing it too quickly if I need more half a day later. Doc recommended taking my effexor at bedtime to sleep. That helps some but then I don't feel it much during the day.
I bottle up anxiety through a desperate need to be calm. My coping mechanism through my childhood trauma was to be the peaceful cooperative party. That's how I avoided stress. That is a natural approach for me but there is such a thing as taking it too far. The result is a bizarre state of repressed anxiety masked by a forced sense of calm. My presenting symptoms are stubbornness (trying to break out) and avoidance (running away). Drinking and smoking help me maintain.
I think too much (ADD/OCD) and am cursed with an overly creative/intelligent mind running wildly towards some sort of unattainable abstract impractical satisfaction.
I didn't miss 'feeling' but it sure has been a pleasure to have my feeling back in the effexor withdrawal. I tend to repress feeling anyways so it was a damn relief to have the anxiety (the most powerful feeling) gone while on effexor.
PS I do not have anxiety attacks. A lot of my obvious day-to-day anxiety is caused by knowing that I've avoided paying my bills and taking care of things. This is something I SHOULD be worried about but I seem unable to take action to correct it. This has messed up my career and caused my wife to divorce me.
Best wishes for you Corafree!
> Like I said, I feel like a zombie on Effexor-XR, but I guess everyone (I don't mean you guys), but me, likes that. I miss 'feeling'. I have night sweats. How do you bottle up anxiety? Anxiety for me is an awful unsureness, like something's missing, something's wrong, or going to go wrong, and worry that maybe I'll have a panic attack (and won't die!). I mean if I could bottle that up, I'd quit the Effexor-XR in a heartbeat! I unfortunately was turned over to a new doc a few mos. back and he is d.c.ing my Klonopin. So, I am forced to take the next best thing, and, for me, no anti-depressant ever (and I've been on pretty much all of them) has calmed anxiety like Effexor-XR does. Sounds like you may be a poor metabolizer; if you feel a change for the worse during the daytime, actually right before that point, it is my belief, at that same time everyday you should have a small follow-up dose of Effexor-XR, like 37.5mg. That fixed me. I couldn't understand why I was fine in the a.m. and afternoon to early eve was horrible. Poor metabolizers gobble up too much and its gone! And, please tell me, what is Xyrem? Good night and thanks.
Posted by pablo1 on July 11, 2004, at 2:17:33
In reply to Xyrem - Why isn't anyone curious?, posted by pablo1 on July 11, 2004, at 1:57:50
Quoting myself: "A lot of my obvious day-to-day anxiety is caused by knowing that I've avoided paying my bills and taking care of things. This is something I SHOULD be worried about but I seem unable to take action to correct it. This has messed up my career and caused my wife to divorce me."
My hope is that this struggle has been meaningful and will force me into pursuing my strengths unabashadly rather than pretending/trying to be what I'm expected to be. It's entirely possible that is just another excuse and I'll never be content until I bow in humility to God through AA but my suspicion is that I'm on the right track. I'm a devout athiest and would be very suprised to see that change.
Posted by Corafree on July 11, 2004, at 10:32:48
In reply to Xyrem - Why isn't anyone curious?, posted by pablo1 on July 11, 2004, at 1:57:50
Pablo: I initially took 75mg upon awakening on an empty stomach. I was told to follow that with 37.5mg in the later evening. About 5-6 hours after my morning dose, I began feeling bad. I started searching for info. I read about poor metabolizers and have posted some info on Dr. Bob. I experimented. I knew my 'bad' feelings began approx 5-6 hrs after the initial morning dose. So instead of waiting until later evening to take the 37.5mg, I would take it 5 hrs after initial morning dose, and it has worked wonderfully. Even if I wake at 7am, I'll take the 37.5mg at noon. No more doses until the next morning dose. And, I am pleasantly well. I'm lonely and just experienced a very large loss in my life, so that may play more into the lability that I feel during the day than I give it credit. I never give myself a break! I too have a love of expression, although it sometimes got me into trouble! I take 50mg trazodone for sleep. That's my regimen and it works. Good Sunday to you.
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 15:49:58
In reply to Xyrem - Why isn't anyone curious?, posted by pablo1 on July 11, 2004, at 2:17:33
Pablo, There's a lot more to it than "bowing in humility to God through AA" If you read the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, you would know that. You can find it online, by the way, free of charge. I'm not even sure what you're topic is in this, but I saw that quote and had to jump in.
Posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 8:00:23
In reply to Re: Going off of Effexor, posted by lorily on July 1, 2004, at 18:39:50
> I can't understand why you would be taking Effexor every 4 days. I think you would be prolonging your withdrawals rather than getting off of them. I've read several people's posts about it and this is the first I've heard of it.
> I'm at 37.5, started there, then went up to 75 last Sept when I was having great things happen and had no reaction to them. 4-5 weeks ago cut it down, I've stopped taking depakote since Sunday night and very nervous about stopping Effexor.
> As for anyone with the sexual side effects problem, my doctor prescribed viagra (yes I'm female) and it does work. It increases the flow of blood to the genitals, making us more sensitive. My problem was not lack of desire, but lack of response. I hope this helps everyone.Well Lorily, I said I would report back after I had tried Viagra. I happily report that I had a wonderful experience. Thank you for the lead. Shyla
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 8:22:12
In reply to Re: Going off of Effexor » lorily, posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 8:00:23
Shyla,
That's absolutely wonderful, fabulous news!!!!
Congrats on getting your mojo back. :)
I hope other women read this.
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:01:21
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 10:12:30
Howdy... I'm curious what you mean about not being able to drink on wellburtrin or any other med for that matter. I know you mean alcohol, but do you get sick if you mix alcohol with WB or such?
Most of these meds, well, it seems like most meds in general should not be mixed with alcohol. Of course, I still do it.
Depakote didn't mix with alcohol for me. I could have 2 beers, and feel like I had a hangover, I mean, right after I finished the 2nd beer. The next day would be rough too (hangover).
I'm on WB now, been so for a while. Also started Lamictal, and Sybiax at night. I don't even get hangovers now.. It's really strange. I'm not complaining though. ;)
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:40
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:31:01
A bottle and a half??? Every night??? Are you serious? You're going to destroy your liver if you really drink this much, and at this frequency.
Could you stop drinking if you wanted to? My personal definition for alcoholism is when you can't stop drinking, and you drink to the point of being drunk each time you drink.
Personally, I can't drink alone. I need to be at a bar with friends or something similar. A friend of mine drinks the hard stuff at lunchtime, while working, by himself. He also drinks on weekends and tells me he gets more house-related work done when he's drinking. That kinda baffles my mind.
If I drink 3 times in one week (more than 3 drinks), then I feel bad, meaning, I feel like I'm drinking way too much. Interesting how different people's drinking habbits are.
Posted by pablo1 on July 12, 2004, at 10:17:09
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:01:21
Wellbutrin made me unable to tolerate drinking. It made me feel bad, what else can I say. I gradually drank some more as I got used to it but was not pleasant. Wellbutrin was overall not pleasant at all for me.
> Howdy... I'm curious what you mean about not being able to drink on wellburtrin or any other med for that matter. I know you mean alcohol, but do you get sick if you mix alcohol with WB or such?
>
> Most of these meds, well, it seems like most meds in general should not be mixed with alcohol. Of course, I still do it.
>
> Depakote didn't mix with alcohol for me. I could have 2 beers, and feel like I had a hangover, I mean, right after I finished the 2nd beer. The next day would be rough too (hangover).
>
> I'm on WB now, been so for a while. Also started Lamictal, and Sybiax at night. I don't even get hangovers now.. It's really strange. I'm not complaining though. ;)
>
Posted by pablo1 on July 12, 2004, at 10:38:22
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:40
I know that's way too much and cannot continue. My liver was OK last time the doc checked. More likely I'll die from smoking before that incapacitates me. I can stop drinking and do not get withdrawl but life is not pleasant due to lingering anxiety perhaps and lack of ever feeling truly relaxed so I wander back to it for the relaxing effect.
> A bottle and a half??? Every night??? Are you serious? You're going to destroy your liver if you really drink this much, and at this frequency.
>
> Could you stop drinking if you wanted to? My personal definition for alcoholism is when you can't stop drinking, and you drink to the point of being drunk each time you drink.
>
> Personally, I can't drink alone. I need to be at a bar with friends or something similar. A friend of mine drinks the hard stuff at lunchtime, while working, by himself. He also drinks on weekends and tells me he gets more house-related work done when he's drinking. That kinda baffles my mind.
>
> If I drink 3 times in one week (more than 3 drinks), then I feel bad, meaning, I feel like I'm drinking way too much. Interesting how different people's drinking habbits are.
>
>
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:44:05
In reply to Re: Need help! » Harlock, posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 15:54:08
That's horrible news about your family. I knew a couple of coworkers with similar situations - Their parents and family disowned them because they were gay. That's sad.
My parents are real pieces of work, but even they wouldn't diss me. They are horribly concerned about my depression. They go over the top though and think I'm just nuts, which is annoying at best. Lately they met another extended family member who suffers from depression, and now they have a better grasp on the disorder.
I have a wife and 2 small children that like my parrots ;), loves me no matter what my problems are. It's good to know you have someone that cares. All I really need is 1-2 people that care about me, and I'm content. Everyone else who disses me can go take a flying leap. ;)
I hate to say this, but hang in there! Well, that's better than "just get over it", like most clueless people say to depression sufferers.
Take care
> Three wonderful children care about me. But how can I continue to allow myself to take their time, money, and maybe ruin their relationships. I refuse to. When my father died, my family of origin dissed me, or disrespected me, disregarded me. No one but my father stood by me in this struggle. I turned to his brother and we talked, I called him. Today I called both of his numbers and it sounded like the phone hung up. Today I called my mother and asked her if I could move into one of her two empty houses near my children. She says 'no, that she may not even want to keep them'. She inherited a large amount of money, and borrowed another 100thousand and all of my family of origin are enjoying the new business she built in another state, not close. I am here. I asked her please not to include me because all I wanted was a home here by my children. She didn't blink an eye or turn her head to say NO. Anyway, the idea of moving closer to my children may help me. They are very busy with their lives and I see maybe two of them once a week. They never just come over to visit. They are just too busy. With borderline personality disorder, you tend to alienate people because of the way you communicate with them. Now, I ask one of my daughters to accompany me to doctor visits...to speak for me. I'm agoraphobic, don't even want to walk down the way to get my mail. My family of origin has dissed me. The children are to be given to, not taken from. Can you kind of see how I feel about that? If my father were here, he would help me. I told my mother I wrote a will and she giggled and said ok, bye.
Posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 11:06:51
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:40
I personally struggle with trying to control my intake. My problem is that getting high feels good to me. I don't seem to have that internal "shut-off" valve like those who know when to quit. It does disturb me, and I feel like I'm fighting with myself. I try not to drink during the work week.
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 12:01:14
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » Harlock, posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 11:06:51
Heh, I think it feels good to most people. ;)
I'm pretty good at just going cold turkey on various things like alcohol, sweets, too much food, smoking, etc. With all my bipolar strangeness, it's good to have one thing going for ya anyway.
What I do in my head is tell myself that alholic drinks, desserts, etc, are like poison to your body and have no nutritional value. That way, I have a real hard time consuming these things. I make them taste bad, in my head, so I end up not craving them. This seems to work for me. It's also a good thing that I've never been a huge fan of beer, never got into wine, and get ill when I smell hard liquor. ;)
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