![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 10:44:46
In reply to Re: SSRI for Anger and ARD (Anal Retentive Disorder)? » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on May 10, 2003, at 10:31:48
Hi Colin,
Thank you for you detailed response! I’m happy that you are doing well and I hope that the Depakote add-on works (if that’s what you end up trying). Allow me to follow-up with a couple more questions and comments.
> I also intend to bring in reinforcements in noradrenergic form - desipramine or imipramine etc(low dose of course).This could well help counter any SSRI anerga, although wellbutrin would also be worth a shot here(different mechanisms at play of course).
Wellbutrin made me very irritable (GRRRRRRRRRR!) when I tried it several years ago. Based on what I know about you, I wonder if it might do the same to you.
> It also seems clear that you'll need an additional safety net too-you mentioned a *low* dose of valproate, and perhaps that's not such a bad idea as a starting point??My wife thinks that I should try this option, but I think I'll try Neurontin first.
> If Prozac has helped your temper spells in the past, then I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. May even be worth a tentative shot.
Yeah, but the question remains whether my low dosage of Enada NADH can overcome Prozac's adverse dopaminergic effects. If not, the SSRI will turn me back into "do-nothing-boy".
> I'm sure you'll like Neurontin (very relaxing, even uplifting), but it's only got *mild* antidepressant properties, and it can't masquerade as a mood stabilizer either.
Unless it poops out, I already have the depressive phase of my disorder covered with Enada NADH, TMG, and other supplements. And Lithobid provides the mood stabilizing power to control my mildly euphoric hypomania. Therefore, at this point, all I need is something to treat my anger outbursts. Having said this, however, the anger outbursts may in fact be symptomatic of the need for more of an antidepressant and/or more mood stabilization.
Here’s my question for you Colin regarding Neurontin. Will the “very relaxing” quality help control my irritability (flash rage), or is it just an anti-anxiety effect?
> A benzo??why on earth not, at least untill the anger issue is nailed.A mere 2 to 4mg(child's dose)works well for me.I can take it or leave it as necessary too.
Colin, please tell me what a benzo feels like when one takes it. For example, suppose (for the millionth time) my wife leaves her used breakfast dish sitting dirty on the counter instead of rinsing it out so that I can put it directly into the dishwasher without first having to use a hammer and chisel to remove the crusted remains. Further, let’s say this causes me to blow-up (for the millionth time). If I were to take a short-acting benzo PRN when I first start to get angry, would it help me to control my temper? Also, will I experience any type of rebound-effect after the short-acting benzo starts to wear off, whereby, I become irritable from the mini-withdrawal effects?
Thank you for your input, Colin.
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on May 14, 2003, at 10:31:17
In reply to Meds for Anger and ARD (Anal Retentive Disorder)? » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on May 13, 2003, at 10:44:46
Signor Ronaldo>,
>>Wellbutrin made me very irritable (GRRRRRRRRRR!) when I tried it several years ago. Based on what I know about you, I wonder if it might do the same to you.
Yeah Ron, I've got a healthy wary feeling for this one too-there doesn't seem to be any 'in-between' reaction with this med. does there??Explosive or great!!
> My wife thinks that I should try this option(valproate) but I think I'll try Neurontin first.Makes sense.As you say, if your sudden sparks of fury are soley due to anger, not depression or (in)stability, you'll soon find out!If it works, no need to look any further.
> Yeah, but the question remains whether my low dosage of Enada NADH can overcome Prozac's adverse dopaminergic effects. If not, the SSRI will turn me back into "do-nothing-boy".
Quandry for us both.I also intend trying out an ENADA add-on, once I'm fully used to the Prozac.In theory at least, it should prove beneficial.I'm Hoping it will help me with my inattention and coordination difficulties, and boost motivation too.If not, it's on to the noradrenergic/dopaminergic meds...
>Here's my questin for you you Colin regarding Neurontin. Will the “very relaxing” quality help control my irritability (flash rage), or is it just an anti-anxiety effect?Well, I must say that it didn't have anywhere near as much impact on anxiety as it did for irritability, in my case.But it's nothing like a benzo(you wouldn't really call a benzo 'uplifting).Then again, my anxiety issues all but disappeared with Lamictal,so it's hard to say for sure. Neurontin definitely reduced my irritability, but I found it to be more of an all round 'tension' reliever, rather than something I'd use for an anger flare-up.
> Colin, please tell me what a benzo feels like when one takes it. For example, suppose (for the millionth time) my wife leaves her used breakfast dish sitting dirty on the counter instead of rinsing it out so that I can put it directly into the dishwasher without first having to use a hammer and chisel to remove the crusted remains. Further, let’s say this causes me to blow-up (for the millionth time). If I were to take a short-acting benzo PRN when I first start to get angry, would it help me to control my temper? Also, will I experience any type of rebound-effect after the short-acting benzo starts to wear off, whereby, I become irritable from the mini-withdrawal effects?Hey,Maybe you should get your wife to create a crockery sculpture??
But benzo's am morgen for irritability??Yup, that's something I've kept up, for just that reason.I'm at my worst in the morning, just like you.I don't what to get into the endless and dreary pro/anti benzo debate, but a small dose of a long-lasting(diazepam) benzo first thing makes my mornings pass a lot smoother!.A mild benzo. used to check my SAM-E induced anger too(but what's the point of taking anything that makes us angry eh?)
I wouldn't go for a short acting benzo.though.
They tend to be stronger(xanax etc.)and this may be overkill , unless you're going berserk!!
These 'acute' benzo's do come in tiny doses, and whilst this may be fine for occasional, sporadic angry outbursts,a milder one with a long half-life would be more settling and even throughout the day.(diazepam has the longest half-life,so withdrawing is a bit like stopping fluoxetine- much easier than the others!)
As for what a benzo feels like,the responses are again individual(some feel groggy, others like myself don't)they tend to be neutral in terms of mood effect, but you will notice an instant, very noticable, highly effective calming effect for sure.Much more so than Neurontin, although if you like Neurontin and still get a touch of anger, you could integrate the two if you wanted.
Then of coure there's our friend Valproate again...
Anyway, hope this helps-I can't reply for a couple of weeks 'cos I'm off down to the (muddy brown,murky, rainy)UK coast for a break.Seeya soon,
Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 10:38:29
In reply to Re: Ron Hill, ENADA Pill, posted by colin wallace on May 14, 2003, at 10:31:17
Posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
In reply to Thanks Colin, ole Buddy, ole Pal. (nm) » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 10:38:29
Anger issues are really rough to deal with and horrendous on other people around you. With Mg I was able to control my anger and not have an outburst. But, I started having sleep problems again/waking up early after 10 great days. I can't figure it out but that is what happened with the fish oil too.
Benzo's are tricky for some. I believe if I had the money to get my self thoroughly checked out we could proceed with meds/supplements that would give me the best chance to join the human race again. Ron, give niacinamide a try instead of a benzo. I took 200 mg around 10 am and felt better, althought my past does not make me too hopefull. You can always go to a benzo, but it is hard to go off and try something else. A few years back I went from 15 mg tranzene to 7.5 mg. I had no sleep problems, but I had "jumpy" legs. I would have twitching and a weird sensation out of the blue which lasted about 1 month. I am sure there are better benzo's out there too but I agree with Colin, a longer acting benzo is probably better.
Lately, I get very spaced after eating and have lost the ability to feel the sleepiness take over and give me a good nights rest.
For me guys, the job stress is killing me. On one hand my boss leaves me alone most of the time, but things are his way or the highway. On top of that nobody in the section is willing to help the new guys out. Nobody wants to be singled out for his wrath. Besides it is government and apathy abounds. The problem is the cold hard fact that no other jobs are availabe now and I don't feel I am contributing to anything. I know this might sound selfish, but I should just be worrrying about HAVING this job when in fact I don't know if it is giving me the anxiety/depression problems!??? Classic, which comes first the chicken or the damn egg? If I don't have this job we lose our apartment and then what? I looked at my job disabilty insurance and sure enough, I have been on meds so I am not covered and depression, if you qualify, is only covered for 2 years. Ever wake up thinking you just dreamed you had depression and it was some nightmare that wasn't true? Unforunately, I feel my nightmare is just starting and it is real. Well, I ramble as usual so I will sign off here. Take care and I pray you both find peace and happiness.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 17:51:55
In reply to Hey guys » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
Hey John,
> Ron, give niacinamide a try instead of a benzo.
I take 100 mg/day in my B-complex and 75 mg/day in my multivitamin. Do you think I should be taking more niacinamide?
> The problem is the cold hard fact that no other jobs are availabe now and I don't feel I am contributing to anything.
Give it you best effort, John. Continually give thanks for your job (and your boss). It will help your attitude and your job performance.
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 21:07:15
In reply to Re: Niacinamide » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 17:51:55
Hi Ron,
Do you take niacin or niacinamide? Make sure it is niacinamide. Google niacinamide and you will find recommendations that up to 2000 mg/day is ok. Personally, for people med sensitive like us, I wouldn't go near that much. I took 400 total today and it appears to help with anxiety. But, my time is so short I really couldn't make an educated guess yet. I read that it is helpful for people getting off benzo's that is why the dose is so high. I took high doses of niacin for an inner ear infection in high school. The flush is incredible and you can acutually watch the flush progress down your body! It is not pleasant either. Recently after eating I get spacey and my coordination goes wacky too. Today I didn't really space out when I took the niacinamide. Don't know if there is any connection or not. I am hoping that at least it will calm me and I won't be such a dick if I get upset. I hate snapping at my wife, that is not the me I used to be. I found some 100 mg tablets at GNC, but most other stores only had 500 tablets. I bought both since they were not very expensive. Online they probably are much much cheaper.
I know you are med sensitive so I was suprised when you said you take 1000 mg a day of Ca. I couldn't tolerate 600 mg. I am taking about 50 mg right now. I really need something to help me sleep. My doc says insomnia is a symptom not a disease. All I know is if I sleep well, I feel well. I need something for sleep bad...
Ron, thanks for the push on my job situation. I am so afraid I will lose my mind and hence my job. I need that job bad more than I ever have. I don't want to hurt my wife she has gone through enough. It sounds stupid but sometimes I wish I would get cancer that would be easier than this disease, but I don't want to croak either. My depression/anxiety has always been situational so I am perplexed as to why I am having so much trouble. The three weeks before the FE I studied every day and weekend and slept well. Do I need more stimulation? It is very confusing. I may seek some therapy out. Never really done that much so don't know if it is a waste of time or not. I just want to sleep and get on with things. If I could work out I would do that but alas the sleep problem emerges. I really think I need to work out and then have some blood work done.
Did you ever get a cortisol/DHEA test done? That and enada NADH, TMG, I haven't tried yet. Anxiety/sleep is my main problem or so I think.
Take care my friend and wish you the bestThe sleepless Johny
Oh serotonin where have you gone?:)
Posted by Jack Smith on May 15, 2003, at 14:14:10
In reply to Re: Niacinamide » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 14, 2003, at 17:51:55
Ron,
Thanks for posting those links. A few questions?
What dose and what brand do you take?
What other meds do you take and what doses?
You are atypical, correct? Are you also bipolar?
Does it improve your energy/mood/libido?
How long to notice an improvement in mood/energy/libido?
Thanks in advance,
JACK
Posted by Ron Hill on May 15, 2003, at 18:48:11
In reply to ENADA NADH Q's » Ron Hill, posted by Jack Smith on May 15, 2003, at 14:14:10
Hi Jack,
> What dose and what brand do you take?
2.5 mg per week of Source Naturals Enada NADH
> What other meds do you take and what doses?
600 mg/day Lithobid. Also, several vitamins and supplements.
> You are atypical, correct?
Yes.
> Are you also bipolar?
Yes, bipolar II.
> Does it improve your energy/mood/libido?
Yes/yes/yes. Also it improves my motivation and focus (concentration).
> How long to notice an improvement in mood/energy/libido?
For me, the improvements began within seconds of placing the first 10 mg sublingual tablet under my tongue. However, Enada NADH is not a panacea. It causes irritability at moderate dosages when used over an extended period of time. One of my posts from about three weeks ago higher up in this thread provides more detail. Here is a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030429/msgs/223139.html
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 15, 2003, at 21:27:31
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH Q's » Jack Smith, posted by Ron Hill on May 15, 2003, at 18:48:11
Hi Ron
Well, I wussed out and went and bought some benadryl. I just can't take the no sleep any longer. We have a big meeting tomorrow with an outside consultant to try and fix our training/boss issues. It won't be pretty and that is what may have been bothering me.
I was wondering if you have ever tried remeron? I didn't think you had, but I had an idea about it. I had a big problem with it causing sponge brain(stole that from Colin) and it was a numbing feeling but did great for sleep, anxiety, and motivation. I wonder if ENADA would help "clear" my head in the morning? Maybe with some TMG? Just a thought as my TCA is not working. I don't yawn or get sleepy even thought my head aches and I am so uncoordinated due to lack of sleep. Today was rough to say the least.
Take care
Johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on May 15, 2003, at 23:25:27
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH Q's » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 15, 2003, at 21:27:31
John,
> I was wondering if you have ever tried remeron?
Nope.
> I wonder if ENADA would help "clear" my head in the morning?
My guess is that it might in the beginning, but it may make you irritable after a week or two. Some choline (precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine) on an empty stomach might be worth a try.
> Maybe with some TMG?
Perhaps. Or maybe try some TMG without the Enada NADH.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 16:23:52
In reply to Re: Niacinamide » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 21:07:15
Have you considered low-dose Remeron for sleep (7.5 mg should do it)?
Posted by johnj on May 18, 2003, at 18:24:47
In reply to johnj, Re: Niacinamide, posted by McPac on May 18, 2003, at 16:23:52
McPac, Hello
Well you must have read my mind. I went for the 30 mg on Friday night. Over a year ago I tried remeron for a few months and when I weaned down to 15 I was sleeping great, but the depression was WORSE. Strange to think, but the lower I went the worse I felt. I actually felt great for a week off remeron, this is due to lingering serotonin according to my pdoc, but I "stabilized" to a depressed feeling again. I eventually upped my benzo and I have had on and off depression/anxiety for over a year. My doc is not very good. A very likeable guy, but just doesn't say much and just says "try this". Well, trying stuff out when you work is not easy.
BTW what is your dx and what do you take? Thanks for the hint, hope you are well.
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
In reply to Hey guys » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
John,
> Ron, give niacinamide a try ...
Hey, you were right. I took 500 mg of niacinamide and it did two things. First, it caused my skin to become bright red and tingly all over, and, second, it reduced my irritability (for a while anyway). I get the feeling, however, that it would lose its effectiveness if I were to take it every day. Any insight regarding its long-term efficacy for the treatment of irritability (anger outbursts)?
Thanks for the tip, John!
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 20, 2003, at 9:22:24
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
Hi Ron,
I find it also does mellow me out, but I somehow don't see myself able to tolerate 3 to 4 doses a day of 500 mg of niacinamide. It is not supposed to cause the flush, but like you, I found myself flushing but not in the way pure niacin does. Us med sensitive guys cannot overdo anything and I do not think it would work in place of a benzo 100%. I will take smaller doses.
I am back on remeron and feel better and able to function here at work. Just hope some of the side effects are more tolerable now.
Things going well for you? take care my friend.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
> John,
>
> > Ron, give niacinamide a try ...
>
> Hey, you were right. I took 500 mg of niacinamide and it did two things. First, it caused my skin to become bright red and tingly all over, and, second, it reduced my irritability (for a while anyway). I get the feeling, however, that it would lose its effectiveness if I were to take it every day. Any insight regarding its long-term efficacy for the treatment of irritability (anger outbursts)?
>
> Thanks for the tip, John!
>
> -- RonHey, Ron. I'm a little surprised to find that you had classic niacin flush from niacinamide. You may be encouraged to learn that most people quickly adapt to even niacin, and the flush symptoms gradually reduce to nothing.
I've been looking at dosing for niacinamide, and I'm starting to think this may be another "wonder nutrient". Just go to Pubmed and plug in "niacinamide diabetes". Maintenance doses are 25 mg/kg, which is 1750 mg/day for your typical 70 kg adult male. In other treatment protocols, doses of 60 mg/kg are used.
I wouldn't be too concerned that there is a possibility of adapting to the dose you're taking, i.e. diminished effectiveness vis a vis irritability. Niacinamide is not stored in the body to any appreciable extent.
Just for the record, irritability is one of the symptoms of niacin/niacinamide deficiency. Perhaps you've got a genetic biochemical quirk that requires a little "helping hand" with supplementation?
Lar
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:40:17
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
Might any of your meds be causing the irritability/anger problems?
Posted by Ron Hill on May 21, 2003, at 21:42:39
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry,
Thanks for your post.
> Hey, Ron. I'm a little surprised to find that you had classic niacin flush from niacinamide.
Figures I'd get caught in my lie. Johnj emphasized the need to take niacinamide (as opposed to niacin), however, my wife takes niacin periodically so I tried some of what we already had laying around the house until I can get over to the nutritional store to buy some niacinamide. I lied in my post and said that I took 500mg of niacinamide (when I actually took 500 mg of niacin) so that my friend Johnj would not yell at me.
Why is niacinamide preferable to niacin, anyhow?
> Just go to Pubmed and plug in "niacinamide diabetes". Maintenance doses are 25 mg/kg, which is 1750 mg/day for your typical 70 kg adult male. In other treatment protocols, doses of 60 mg/kg are used.
Thanks, Larry; I'll check it out. <How do you know if I am lying or telling the truth?>
> Just for the record, irritability is one of the symptoms of niacin/niacinamide deficiency. Perhaps you've got a genetic biochemical quirk that requires a little "helping hand" with supplementation?
Maybe; I don't know. It does seem to reduce my irritability quite noticeably. But now I'm having trouble with my atypical depression. I'm not sure what's going on. I went two weeks between Enada NADH doses, so maybe that's it. Part of me wants to speculate that niacin (NAD) counteracts the antidepressive effects of NADH. Enada NADH reduces my atypical depression but increases my irritability. On the other hand, NAD reduces my irritability, but might it also be adversely affecting my atypical depression? Who knows. What I do know is that I've gotta suck it up and get myself out of this low motivational, apathetic pit.
Thanks again, Larry and John.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 0:33:27
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry and John,
I've started to do some reading on niacinamide and so far I'm confused by the nomenclature. Which one of these am I supposed to take and why?
nicotianmide
NAD (ß-Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
niacinamide
nicotinic acidThe ingredient list for the product shown at the following web-page link leads me to believe that niacinamide is the same as nicotinic acid:
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/niacinamide2.html
If that's the case, then I didn't lie in my previous post when I stated that I took 500 mg of niacinamide because, as chance would have it, my wife's "niacin" is nicotinic acid.
Thank you very much for you help.
-- Ron
P.S. I took 2.5 mg of Enada NADH a few hours ago and my depression seems to be lifting. Who knows. Time will tell.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 5:27:40
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry and Johnj,
I should do my homework before I bug you guys with the type of questions I asked in my post immediately above. I’ll briefly answer my own questions and then I’ll state my plans regarding my vitamin B3 trial.
<Answers>
Vitamin B3 comes in two basic forms; niacin (also called nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (also called nicotinamide). A variation on niacin, called inosital hexaniacinate, is also available in supplements. Because it has not been linked with any of the usual niacin toxicity in scientific research, inositol hexaniacinate is sometimes prescribed by European doctors for those who need high amounts of niacin.Vitamin B3 as niacinamide may be beneficial in the treatment of anxiety. It has been shown in animals to work in the brain in ways similar to drugs, such as benzodiazepines (Valium®-type drugs), which are used to treat anxiety. One study found that niacinamide (not niacin) could help people get through withdrawal from benzodiazepines, a common problem. A reasonable amount of niacinamide to take for anxiety, according to some doctors, is up to 500 mg four times per day.
<Plan>
Although 250 mg/day of niacin (nicotinic acid) seems to help my irritability, it appears from what I have read that niacinamide is the better form of vitamin B3 for this purpose. Therefore, I’ll buy some niacinamide and start out taking about 100 mg three to five times a day. I’ll miss the niacin flush, however. I kind of liked it.One other option might be to try NAD, but I'd have to read more to determine the advantages and disadvantages associated with this approach.
What da ya think?
-- Ron
-------------------------------------
> Larry and John,
>
> I've started to do some reading on niacinamide and so far I'm confused by the nomenclature. Which one of these am I supposed to take and why?
>
> nicotianmide
> NAD (ß-Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
> niacinamide
> nicotinic acid
>
> The ingredient list for the product shown at the following web-page link leads me to believe that niacinamide is the same as nicotinic acid:
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/niacinamide2.html
>
> If that's the case, then I didn't lie in my previous post when I stated that I took 500 mg of niacinamide because, as chance would have it, my wife's "niacin" is nicotinic acid.
>
> Thank you very much for you help.
>
> -- Ron
>
>
> P.S. I took 2.5 mg of Enada NADH a few hours ago and my depression seems to be lifting. Who knows. Time will tell.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 6:58:39
In reply to Ron, Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal), posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:40:17
Hi McPac,
> Might any of your meds be causing the irritability/anger problems?
Yes. Although Enada NADH provides good relief for the atypical depressive component of my bipolar disorder, it can also (unfortunately) cause severe irritability (flash rage). If I take more than one 2.5 mg tablet about once per week, irritability becomes very bothersome.
I'd love to take more Enada NADH in order to keep my atypical depression more fully in check, but I hate the dysphoric mood state more than I hate the depression. Trust me, I hate the depression (I retreat and sleep 24/7). But the dysphoric rage is even worse because it destroys relationships and makes me want to jump out of my skin.
Additionally, I typically have a low-level impatience/irritability thing going on in the background which is not attributable to medications or supplements. Over the years I've assumed that this is just part of my bipolar disorder, but now I'm wondering if a vitamin B3 mal-absorption issue could be involved in some way. At any rate, I plan to conduct a trial of niacinamide and see what happens.
Thanks for your concern McPac. I hope you are doing well.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:21:36
In reply to After 5hrs of reading about B3, here's what I got: » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 5:27:40
> Although 250 mg/day of niacin (nicotinic acid) seems to help my irritability, it appears from what I have read that niacinamide is the better form of vitamin B3 for this purpose. Therefore, I’ll buy some niacinamide and start out taking about 100 mg three to five times a day. I’ll miss the niacin flush, however. I kind of liked it.
>
> One other option might be to try NAD, but I'd have to read more to determine the advantages and disadvantages associated with this approach.
>
> What da ya think?
>
> -- RonNiacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 9:36:52
In reply to Re: After 5hrs of reading about B3, here's what I got:, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:21:36
> Niacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
Yeah, maybe. But if so, what the heck am I going to do with my three-year supply of Enada NADH?
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 10:13:19
In reply to Re: Relationship between niacinamide and NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 9:36:52
> > Niacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
>
> Yeah, maybe. But if so, what the heck am I going to do with my three-year supply of Enada NADH?
>
> -- RonOpen a supplement store?
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 15:15:56
In reply to Re: Relationship between niacinamide and NADH, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 10:13:19
Larry,
Quick question. I'm hoping you might know the answer off the top of your fact filled head. If not, no need to spend a bunch of your time trying to track down an answer.
I'm intrigued by the alternate names for niacin (i.e.; nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (i.e.; nicotinamide). Are these substances related to nicotine and/or do they interact with nicotine receptors in some fashion?
Thanks much!
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 16:24:41
In reply to Re: Quick question about niacin and niacinamide » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 15:15:56
> Larry,
>
> Quick question. I'm hoping you might know the answer off the top of your fact filled head.What makes you think that I have a fact filled head? <spock eyebrow>
> If not, no need to spend a bunch of your time trying to track down an answer.
I told you, I love questions.
> I'm intrigued by the alternate names for niacin (i.e.; nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (i.e.; nicotinamide). Are these substances related to nicotine and/or do they interact with nicotine receptors in some fashion?
>
> Thanks much!
>
> -- RonYes, they are structurally related. All are based on pyridine rings, which is like a benzene ring, but with one nitrogen atom.
In the meta position from that nitrogen, a carboxylic acid group makes it nicotinic acid. The amide of ammonia with the nicotinic acid is called nicotinamide. Substituting a pyrrhole ring (five carbon, with a nitrogen) for the carboxylic acid group, and adding a methyl group to the pyrrholic nitrogen, gives you nicotine. Nicotine can be oxidized to nicotinic acid, but I have no idea of the extent of that conversion in vivo.
The so-called nicotinic receptor is sensitive to exogenous (from outside) substances, including nicotine. It's rather intellectually arrogant to call it a nicotinic receptor, just as it's arrogant to think of a benzodiazepine receptor. Anyway, the receptor is actually one for acetylcholine, generally an excitatory class, but there are inhibitory versions, too. It's simple to say that the nicotinic receptor is cholinergic.
It is my understanding that niacinamide has some affinity for the nicotinic receptor. You may recall that I suggested, in my response to John, that there are both sedative and excitatory effects from using niacinamide. In most people, the sedative effect is dominant. Individual brains may vary.
Yer welcome.
Lar
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