Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2003, at 0:10:26
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » MamaB, posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 13:26:35
Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Emme
Posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:06
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Hanks, posted by Emme on October 22, 2003, at 11:52:08
First of all, thanks to all who responded to my input.
I didn't mean to hurt anyone and actually my soul intention was to be supportive I know how sensitive is the issue I have been trying to manifest. There were not even a single provocative word in my post, still it fuelled anger and hostility and the reason I know very vell.
I am not an alien to mood disorders, and believe me I have been on and off medications for the past fifteen years without any significant benefits. I know the agony of depression and the ordeal of panic and right in this off period what I am suffering can't be shared with anyone because if I do so there will not be a single cheerful soul on this planet.(Forgive me Lincoln)
My inspiration to suffer came from a visit to a palliative clinic in a third world country where I saw the true suffering of human beings. That is what prompted me to call our sufferings an "Illusion". If it hurts anyone, I am sorry but I think I have the right to preserve and serve what I think is right. I can't forget the face of that five year old boy who kept smiling at me with tears in his eyes. He died in front of me after suffering the ordeal of Aute Lymphoblastic Leukemia for six months.
Our ego is what makes us blind. Getting rid of it is all that we need, and DEFINITELY not sugar pills.
Peter Hanks.
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Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Hanks
Posted by Ilene on October 23, 2003, at 1:24:53
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Emme, posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:06
> I didn't mean to hurt anyone and actually my soul intention was to be supportive I know how sensitive is the issue I have been trying to manifest. There were not even a single provocative word in my post, still it fuelled anger and hostility and the reason I know very vell.
>I don't think you are being honest here by claiming there was "not even a single provocative word" in your post. Read some Shakespeare: "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."
>
> My inspiration to suffer came from a visit to a palliative clinic in a third world country where I saw the true suffering of human beings. That is what prompted me to call our sufferings an "Illusion". If it hurts anyone, I am sorry but I think I have the right to preserve and serve what I think is right. I can't forget the face of that five year old boy who kept smiling at me with tears in his eyes. He died in front of me after suffering the ordeal of Aute Lymphoblastic Leukemia for six months.
>
> Our ego is what makes us blind. Getting rid of it is all that we need, and DEFINITELY not sugar pills.
>
> Peter Hanks.
>
>
Your ego *is* making you blind. Because you admit to it doesn't make people any more receptive to your preaching about *their* egos.I've watched two people die. I don't think their suffering was any "truer" than mine. My suffering is not an illusion because it's not part of a terminal disease.
Palliative care for the dying can treat physical but not psychic pain. In truth the worst part of watching my father die was not his physical suffering but the agonizing look of depression on his face. When I told my husband about that, he said, "Now you know how I feel when I watch you."
Besides, physical and emotional pain register in the same part of the brain.
Ilene
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Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Hanks
Posted by Elle2021 on October 23, 2003, at 1:56:36
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Emme, posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:06
First of all, I don't think you can honestly believe that your post did not contain a single provactive word. I am truly sorry to hear that you have struggled with mood disorders your whole life. I too have struggled with them and I know that they are difficult to live with. My specific problem with your postings is that you seem to trivialize mental illness as opposed to physical pain. I am honestly sorry that you had to watch a five-year-old boy die; I am sure that the sight of it left an unforgettable impression on you. But, please try to be understanding to the rest of us who are also struggling with pain; whether it be emotional or physical, it is still nevertheless, pain. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes, you can't make a judgement on how my illness has affected me.
Kindly, Elle> First of all, thanks to all who responded to my input.
>
> I didn't mean to hurt anyone and actually my soul intention was to be supportive I know how sensitive is the issue I have been trying to manifest. There were not even a single provocative word in my post, still it fuelled anger and hostility and the reason I know very vell.
>
> I am not an alien to mood disorders, and believe me I have been on and off medications for the past fifteen years without any significant benefits. I know the agony of depression and the ordeal of panic and right in this off period what I am suffering can't be shared with anyone because if I do so there will not be a single cheerful soul on this planet.(Forgive me Lincoln)
>
> My inspiration to suffer came from a visit to a palliative clinic in a third world country where I saw the true suffering of human beings. That is what prompted me to call our sufferings an "Illusion". If it hurts anyone, I am sorry but I think I have the right to preserve and serve what I think is right. I can't forget the face of that five year old boy who kept smiling at me with tears in his eyes. He died in front of me after suffering the ordeal of Aute Lymphoblastic Leukemia for six months.
>
> Our ego is what makes us blind. Getting rid of it is all that we need, and DEFINITELY not sugar pills.
>
> Peter Hanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
Dear Ilene, Nothing personal here. » Ilene
Posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 2:12:24
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Hanks, posted by Ilene on October 23, 2003, at 1:24:53
>I don't think you are being honest here by claiming there was "not even a single provocative word" in your post. Read some Shakespeare: "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."
"Cudgel thy brains no more about it" (Shakespeare. Hamlet)
>Your ego *is* making you blind. Because you admit to it doesn't make people any more receptive to your preaching about *their* egos.
"I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant..." (Kahlil Gibran)
Nothing personal here.
Thanks
Hanks--
Re: Nothing personal here. » Hanks
Posted by galkeepinon on October 23, 2003, at 2:51:50
In reply to Dear Ilene, Nothing personal here. » Ilene, posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 2:12:24
>>>>"I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant..."
(Kahlil Gibran)
*Thanks for sharing that Hanks, I like that:-)--
Re: Nothing personal here.
Posted by MamaB on October 23, 2003, at 6:03:00
In reply to Re: Nothing personal here. » Hanks, posted by galkeepinon on October 23, 2003, at 2:51:50
> >>>>"I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant..."
> (Kahlil Gibran)
> *Thanks for sharing that Hanks, I like that:-)Hi y'all--
Of course good ole' Mama has to add her two cents worth! I was out of town yesterday so I am just catching up. Hummmmm, interesting thread.
I too have been in third world countries and seen incredible suffering, so I have difficulty relating to Hank's post relating that to mental illness. Until I was "afflicted" myself I was pretty much like you Hank. Then, between dealing with my own stuff, working in mental health, and doing geneaology, I have become a convert.
In my family through four generations (women only) out of fifty-two women, twenty of us have mental health issues. In my grandparents generation there were three suicides, in my mothers one and so far, none in mine, but two in the next generation. Our family has been part of a study at a major medical center and, although in the previous generations exact diagnoses are not really possible, there is a thread of commonality -- depression that appears to set in some time between puberty and the age of twenty-five. Until we began this family research, those of us in the two living generations DID NOT KNOW that the others struggled too.
Trust me, no one back in 1875, "created" this apparently genetic nightmare. I am certain that my two cousins who have lost daughters to suicide agree.
Choose your own path, but remember, there do exist those of us for whom psychotropic medications are literally lifesaving! Mama--
Re: Depression is a created illness and ......
Posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 9:18:16
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Emme, posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:06
> My inspiration to suffer came from a visit to a palliative clinic in a third world country where I saw the true suffering of human beings. That is what prompted me to call our sufferings an "Illusion". If it hurts anyone, I am sorry but I think I have the right to preserve and serve what I think is right. I can't forget the face of that five year old boy who kept smiling at me with tears in his eyes. He died in front of me after suffering the ordeal of Aute Lymphoblastic Leukemia for six months.
I see your point, BUT I think people should respect the fact that suffering, whether physical or emotional, is not a competition. I used to go to my therapist and say, "I feel so GUILTY for feeling bad - look at how good I have things! What is WRONG with me?" and her response was, "Just because someone else has it 'worse than' you doesn't minimize what YOU are going through." In other words, yes, I feel terrible about the suffering of the people you saw in the clinic, just as I feel terrible about the suffering of the children I used to volunteer with. At 6 years old, they had seen more evil than I will probably ever see. BUT that doesn't mean that what I am experiencing isn't bad FOR ME.
Not to mention that my depression stops me from helping others in the way I would like. Through treatment I hope to get better, which will enable me to give back more fully.
In addition, if your mind is in tact, you can handle almost anything. I've had several members of my family (grandmother, aunts) battle and beat cancer during my lifetime. I've seen one aunt survive the loss of her husband to cancer, and I've seen my grandmother survive the suicide of my grandfather almost two years ago. All of them had difficulty - but all of them were in a good mind state at the time also. Not that they didn't experience sadness, frustration, anger and all the other negative feelings that accompany life traumas such as these, but they WEREN'T clinically depressed.
However, if someone has a healthy body but their mind is afflicted with mental illness, what difference does it make that their body is healthy? A healthy body without a healthy mind is useless. I've also seen people with ALS whose minds are perfectly in tact but whose bodies are failing lead successful, fulfilling existences despite the disease. But if you have depression, it can be impossible to feel fulfilled, hopeful, happy. Truly, I would rather my body fail me than my mind. At least then I would be able to fight for a fulfilling life. If my mind has given up, what else is there?
> Our ego is what makes us blind. Getting rid of it is all that we need, and DEFINITELY not sugar pills.
It is certainly a mistake to think only of ourselves. But, again, the suffering of others doesn't minimize what we are experiencing. Doesn't minimize the pain of our realities. And whatever it takes to pull us back to the point where we can be contributing members of society, well, then that's what needs to be done. Medication, therapy, ECT, supplements, whatever.
P
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Re: Depression is a created illness and ......
Posted by MamaB on October 23, 2003, at 11:14:04
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ......, posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 9:18:16
In my humble opinion, self-flagellation, like suicide is a form of narcissism. Medieval monks whipped their own backs, slept naked on a stone floor and other assorted trials, to "mortify the body" which they saw as sinful. Martyrdom may have been Jean d'Arc's, or the early church reformers way of communicating their message, but that does not mean that OUR suffering, whether physical or mental, necessarily makes a difference.
Mother Teresa saw untold suffering, Dr. Paul Brand fought the same disease (leprosy) for over 50 years. What did they do about it. They certainly did not punish themselves! They went out and DID WHAT THEY COULD!!Does this mean we must all go to the mission field, or third world countries? Of course not. I do not say this boastfully, but my husband and I are blessed with five wonderful young men as sons. What's so great about that? Nothing GREAT, but you see, three of them are adopted from three different countries and cultures. OK, so you don't think you can adopt a child from another country? Have you tried.......Raising a family such as ours was a sure fire way to not have time or energy to think about one's self.
I too have had people die in my arms, children included. Do you think this is not frustrating for trained medical people? Sure it is. But all we ever said is that we wanted to make a difference. I hope we have, I know three young men who think so.
(If we are going to continue this discussion, I think we had better do it on another forum. Psychosocial Babble?)
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Response on PSB » MamaB
Posted by Penny on October 23, 2003, at 13:27:51
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ......, posted by MamaB on October 23, 2003, at 11:14:04
I responded to your message on PSB...see you there!
P
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Re: Depression is a created illness and ......
Posted by Mariposa on October 23, 2003, at 13:38:52
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ......, posted by MamaB on October 23, 2003, at 11:14:04
I recently re-read "Brave New World" for like the 10th time....
This thread started me thinking about some of the parallels w/our society....comercials for Zoloft, etc...the acceptance of *altering your state of conciousness through medication*....a Sat. Nite Live skit w/pharmacist advocating *take a pill, man!* that just made me LOL when it aired...the fact that the stress of commuting can result in road rage which I experienced first hand daily on I-95 in Miami (I don't know how I'm not dead yet!)...and my own personal experiences...depression and anti-social behavior since early teens, experiments with illegal drugs, alcohol...a bad traffic accident in college that left me w/herniated discs in back and neck...and yet I managed to get through college and hold down a good paying, though also stressful, salaried job w/o any pscd meds. In addition have had my share of family trauma...verbally abusive father, always a large man, I watched him shrivel up and die from cancer, nephew shot himself in the head at 16, sister slowly being *taken* w/lukemia, Mother-in-Law had a heart attack right in front of husband and I...I managed through it all w/o meds.
Are these medications over perscribed...almost certainly...the drug companies are surely counting on it, why else would there be ads for stuff and they don't even tell you what condition it's meant to treat...go ask your doc for it anyway TODAY even though you may not need it!!
Well, I have to leave and can not continue now.... but there is a lot of food for thought and as I read my other posts...surely Lex had let me down as that's the old combative, arrogant, and filled w/hate ME that posted and not the *rational thinking mellow* me that I used to be....~~~8|8
--Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Hanks
Posted by MamaB on October 23, 2003, at 14:07:40
In reply to Re: Depression is a created illness and ...... » Emme, posted by Hanks on October 23, 2003, at 0:52:06
> First of all, thanks to all who responded to my input.
>
> I didn't mean to hurt anyone and actually my soul intention was to be supportive I know how sensitive is the issue I have been trying to manifest. There were not even a single provocative word in my post, still it fuelled anger and hostility and the reason I know very vell.
>
> I am not an alien to mood disorders, and believe me I have been on and off medications for the past fifteen years without any significant benefits. I know the agony of depression and the ordeal of panic and right in this off period what I am suffering can't be shared with anyone because if I do so there will not be a single cheerful soul on this planet.(Forgive me Lincoln)
>
> My inspiration to suffer came from a visit to a palliative clinic in a third world country where I saw the true suffering of human beings. That is what prompted me to call our sufferings an "Illusion". If it hurts anyone, I am sorry but I think I have the right to preserve and serve what I think is right. I can't forget the face of that five year old boy who kept smiling at me with tears in his eyes. He died in front of me after suffering the ordeal of Aute Lymphoblastic Leukemia for six months.
>
> Our ego is what makes us blind. Getting rid of it is all that we need, and DEFINITELY not sugar pills.
>
> Peter Hanks.
>
>
> In my humble opinion, self-flagellation, like suicide is a form of narcissism. Medieval monks whipped their own backs, slept naked on a stone floor and other assorted trials, to "mortify the body" which they saw as sinful. Martyrdom may have been Jean d'Arc's, or the early church reformers way of communicating their message, but that does not mean that OUR suffering, whether physical or mental, necessarily makes a difference.
Mother Teresa saw untold suffering, Dr. Paul Brand fought the same disease (leprosy) for over 50 years. What did they do about it. They certainly did not punish themselves! They went out and DID WHAT THEY COULD!!Does this mean we must all go to the mission field, or third world countries? Of course not. I do not say this boastfully, but my husband and I are blessed with five wonderful young men as sons. What's so great about that? Nothing GREAT, but you see, three of them are adopted from three different countries and cultures. OK, so you don't think you can adopt a child from another country? Have you tried.......Raising a family such as ours was a sure fire way to not have time or energy to think about one's self.
I too have had people die in my arms, children included. Do you think this is not frustrating for trained medical people? Sure it is. But all we ever said is that we wanted to make a difference. I hope we have, I know three young men who think so.
(If we are going to continue this discussion, I think we had better do it on another forum. Psychosocial Babble?)
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poster:Dr. Bob
thread:272335
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20031020/msgs/272512.html