Posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 7:18:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on July 9, 2004, at 2:17:54
> > "Empty stomach" really means "no other protein/amino acids present", in this case. When you arise in the morning, and reach for a coffee, you can probably get away with taking the DLPA, unless your coffee is a latte. A dribble of milk would be irrelevant, but half a cup would be relevant.
> >
> Trouble is that if I have just coffee, it will wreak havoc with my blood sugar because of hypoglycemia. I start getting really shakey, weak and light-headed. I'd really have to take it before breakfast or coffee.Before protein, is really all you need worry about, in the a.m.
> > Another "red flag" thought is hunger. If I start getting a meal ready, I down my "empty stomach" supps. By the time I'm finished preparing the food.....
>
>
> I'll have to learn to cook more elaborate meals. I've been quite lazy lately but it would certainly work out better if I did more cooking.I do a lot of cooking. I guess I look at food through cook-coloured glasses. The neat thing about cooking is I get to eat better stuff.
> I'll probably forget the tyrosine then. I think the DLPA is probably a better bet for me anyway.(Can't believe I didn't catch the bad spelling of it up above. Where is spell check when you need it?)If meaning is not lost, it's no biggie, eh?
> > Having just arisen, with mush brain, etc., I can't speak with authority. What you describe makes me think of what is called adrenal exhaustion (in the alternative realm of medicine).
> >
> Interesting... I've read a little about it but never really considered it seriously for myself. I think it was one of those things that I thought I should look into more but didn't give it more attention than that. I'll go to the sites you've given me and read up on it more this weekend. It would be nice to have a label for things I'm experiencing and also a better idea of how to "fix" it.Adrenal exhaustion also fits in nicely with the concept of chronic PTSD. It's just a thought-point.
> > Here's the geeky "standard" version:
> > http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/front/740%20Class%20Spring%202003/Gold%20%20Organization%20of%20the%20stress%20system.pdf
> >
> > And here's the alternative reality:
> > http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/stress4-4.html
> >
> > At this point, I would like to thank you for asking these questions. My own self-care is less than optimal, but when someone leads me to reconsider some of the issues related to treating these symptoms, I find myself refocussing on specific concepts and treatments. My own brain doesn't treat me as well as I wish to treat others.
> >
>
> I can't believe YOU are thanking ME! You are a really sweet person.I want to make clear this is a win-win relationship. I gain nothing by leaving you feeling like it is anything else.
> (But glad I could be of some help. I have lots of other questions to ask and I'll force myself to ask them in future postings because I do so love to help others.)
<grin>
About TMG and that liver enzyme:
> > It isn't normally present at high levels in the liver, but it is inducible. Concentration of the enzyme multiplies dramatically, if the raw material is present. It is possible that some people have a genetic defect, and cannot produce this enzyme, but that's unlikely.
>
> I never knew enzymes could be "inducible". I guess I've been thinking of them in terms of being the rate limiting factor (i.e. the reason that some claim taking l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine can't work)That deserves a little commentary. Some people get all excited about enzyme-related interactions of the herb St. John's wort and e.g. birth control pills. SJW induces activity of the enzyme 3A4, the same one that processes the synthetic hormones in birth control pills. As a result, the hormones don't last for 24 hours, and are far less effective. I would hazard a guess that most enzymes are inducible, but that takes time, as it requires interaction with DNA and cellular replication "machinery". When you have constant intake of an enzyme inhibitor, I would hazard a guess that the DNA is induced as your body tries to counteract the inhibiting effect.
Rate-limiting enzyme reactions are really a special case. When you have a series of linked enzyme processes, your body will use the rate of activity of one enzyme to limit the maximum output of the enzyme series. That only happens at saturation concentrations. What that means is the rate-limiting enzyme is available only in limited numbers (it's own concentration limit), *and* the raw material(s) which are processed by that enzyme are at a concentration at or above which the enzyme is at 100% processing capacity. If the rate-limiting enzyme does not have 100% saturation by raw materials (e.g. tyrosine), then increasing tyrosine concentration will increase the rate-limited output of that enzyme, up to the 100% capacity limit, at which it will plateau.
There is another entire issue that is overlooked by the nay-sayers. Neither phenylalanine or tyrosine go only to dopamine/norepinephrine production. For all we know, it is the alternate uses which lead to mood improvement, and perhaps those only become optimized if and only if the neurotranmsitter pathway reaches saturation. Knowing *that* a supplement makes you feel better is quite a bit different than knowing *why* it does (or thinking you know exactly why). Those who say it can't help are guilty of the logical fallacy called petitio principii (begging the question). If and only if you agree with their premise is their conclusion also true; the classic circular argument.
> >
> > > Also, what about taking l-methionine directly? I actually have some of that here.
> >
> > I've use methionine, and it does not do the same thing as TMG. Perhaps the difference is related to decreases in homocysteine. Taking methionine will not reduce homocysteine levels. Or, perhaps the difference has to do with formation of the end-product of the reaction with homocysteine, which yields not only methionine, but also dimethylglycine (DMG), which is used by weightlifters.
> >
> I've also read that some people take DMG directly rather than SAM-e or TMG but from your comments above I can see where it might not be as useful.The SAMe/homocysteine/methionine process is a cycle. For whatever reason, our bodies have evolved in such a way that they depend on recycling "used" methionine, rather than on dietary intake. When that cycle stalls, it always stalls at homocysteine. That is where the help is needed.
Chronically depressed people have much higher incidence of coronary heart disease than do normal people. Homocysteine is an arterial irritant, and may play a direct role in the formation of atherosclerosis, the precursor to artery blockage and heart attack. It has not been proven without doubt, but homocysteine may be part of the etiology of both disorders, the common element between them. Reducing homocysteine is good for your heart. Do it for your heart, and your brain gets a bonus chance at better functioning.
> The situation you described with the body not knowing what to do with the SAM-e reminds me of the situation you described with 5-HTP.It knows what to do with it (SAMe), unfortunately. It makes more homocysteine.
> In the case of 5-HTP, if there is extra serotonin outside of the brain, can't it theoretically harm the heart (like with Phen-Fen)?
That has been raised as an issue, and I once used it as an argument myself, but I have since reconsidered (conditionally). I have seen no medical evidence linking 5-HTP use with heart valve problems, or any other heart or circulatory problems, despite the fact that so many people use it (some of whom surely abuse it).
Notwithstanding the above, I see no benefit arising from systemic increase in 5-HTP concentrations. You want that in the brain (and gut) solely. Tryptophan hydroxylase is the rate-limiting enzyme, and it only occurs in tissues that require serotonin. The decarboxylase that finishes the job is ubiquitous; 5-HTP in neurons is estimated to have a half-life of about one nanosecond. The instant it forms, poof!, it's serotonin.
> (Which also makes me wonder about taking GABA supplements directly - what happens with the extra GABA that doesn't make it through the BBB?)
It has a very short half-life, and no overt adverse effects. The only consideration I have is that it should not be used day after day after day. You don't want to down-regulate your GABA receptor formation because you are hyper-stimulating them.
You know how some people get tolerant of hot pepper taste? They keep having to push up the fire level to get that buzz? It's a tolerance phenomenon. I use hot peppers so seldom, I always get the full buzz, from a tiny dose. Same goes with GABA. Use it every day, and it'll just poop out altogether.
> > > > Just for the record, on recent days (two instances) when I have used NADH and TMG, I am substantially enhanced in functioning the *next* day, and on subsequent days, rather than on the day I dosed.
>
> Do you have any idea why that would be? You're not at all enhanced on the day you take it?Yes, enhanced, but not productively enhanced. I tend to be a little distractable/irritable. Even at those small doses, I think it's just a little high on that first day. As it mellows out, I get much more comfortable, and significantly more productive.
> Very strange when you consider that some people see improvement in an hour or two...
My simplification was unintentionally deceptive.
> > I have anxious reactions. It's a trait. I developed energy and motivation problems. That's a state. Traits you're born with, states you develop.
> >
> > > >
> Interesting way of putting it. I've come to see my lack of energy and motivation as more genetically based and therefore predetermined.I used to work 60-80 weeks as a matter of course. I used to (think I) thrive on deadlines. No longer true for me. I literally had a breakdown. Humpty Dumpty. Ya know?
>
> > > > > I just bought some of that and am really looking forward to trying it. I just have to decide if I want to take it with the small amount of Effexor instead of the SJW while I withdraw ... Decisions, decisions....
> > > > >
> > > I have taken two pills of the Arctic brand so far. One each on two different days. This only equals 180 mg. So far so good. Today I definitely felt more able to concentrate after taking it. I am no longer worried about tolerating it. I am more worried that it won't do much and will be another dead end. Short half life though? That means withdrawal, doesn't it?
> >
> > I'm very glad you are having a good initial reaction to it. Russian herbal practise is to use an herb for no more than four months, stop for at least one month, and restart as necessary. That pattern can be continued indefinitely. Withdrawal is seldom a problem with herbs, probably because they have such complex chemistry (hundreds of constituents, taken simultaneously). All I meant by the short half-life remark was that, if an adverse reaction occurs, it ends quickly upon ceasing intake. The adverse herbal reactions are generally self-limiting.
>
> Good to know there's no horrible withdrawal with herbs! The flip side of it is that you have to go off of them periodically.I believe that is to maintain efficacy, and to forestall any chronic adverse effects. It's just the way herbs tend to be used.
> >
> > Good luck with the Rhodiola. The gent who turned me on to it had astounding results.
>
> > Lar
>
> Thanks. I'm going to take two tablets a day soon because I'm not having any problems with the one. Still encouraging. What brands did the people you knew take?Solgar. I bought a bunch of it (to reduce import costs), and I couldn't use it.
> Did the guy who turned you on to Rhodiola (or the others you knew) continue to have success or did the herb lose it's power after a period of years?
I've lost touch. I should probably see if I can find out.
> (I've never had much of a response to anything yet but I'm thinking that it's probably preferable to experiencing that "Flowers for Algernon" phenomenon.)
I don't know what that is.
> Please don't feel that you have to get back to me right away. I feel guilty for monopolizing you with so many questions because I know a lot of people are waiting for your responses.
I think I'm caught up. I'm waiting for others, methinks.
> Take care,
> KaraSYou too.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:359642
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040613/msgs/364642.html