Posted by tealady on September 6, 2003, at 23:42:54
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 9:48:48
Starting thread on the "2nd bit" of the minerals we take.
Someone asked which are "best" forms to take.
Answer..it depends,
on individual needs, some are better absorbed than others, and even this will vary greatly among different people depending on their age, stomach acid level, what they are taken with other supplements, food,etc Some have question marks over their safety.... like picolinate and orotate.Link to orotate is here (also below)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256876.html> > >Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection.
> >
> > Is this the filtration rate overall is lowered by the lithium oratate, meaning I assume that kidney function is impaired??
>
> That's what it means. Overall kidney function is impaired (decreased filtration rate), and fluid is being retained (decreased urine output), suggesting edema.
>
> > OR the amount of lithium filtered out is lower than with a placebi...
>
> Lithium clearance was also impaired, meaning that the ratio of plasma lithium to urine lithium has increased. I see that as a consequence of the decreased filtration rate. Other substances which should have left the body in urine would also be retained to a greater degree.
>
> The article in question was comparing equal amounts of lithium, supplied as the carbonate or orotate. Just to put that into context, Serenity's proponents are suggesting that a vastly lower supply of lithium, as the orotate salt, is equivalent to the more typical dose of lithium carbonate. I can find no evidence of dose-ranging studies of that equivalence. Lithium orotate was tried in human trials back in the 70's, and was abandoned, although I'm having trouble finding out exactly why (modern references are far more informative).
>
> > so do we have lithium in our blodd normally if we don't supplement?
>
> Yes, but at nowhere near the concentrations seen after the use of lithium salts.
>
> > <The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, >
> > Lar, I only understand a glimmer of this and of the equilibrium between intra, inter cellular and blood stream and ion transfer etc..
>
> Without revisiting those concepts literally, I was describing processes which are driven by laws of nature. Wherever a high concentration of something exists, that concentration will tend to dissipate, via entropy. Wherever high concentrations of e.g. lithium ions exist in the body, that concentration will tend to be reduced by osmosis between compartments, and diffusion. So, as the kidneys dump lithium, concentrations of lithium will fall everywhere. The way the body gets around these laws of entropy is by employing transporters, energy-consuming ion pumps, in the case of lithium.
>
> If there wasn't very much lithium to begin with (even the proponents of lithium orotate acknowledge there is little in the blood at any one time), then the brain cells will lose what little they have obtained (even if the orotate somehow navigates to the brain). Even the ion pumps will fail if there isn't very much lithium around to pump. There are other organs that have very high affinities for orotic acid (liver, kidney and heart), so there is little likelihood, IMHO, that the brain will get any sort of preferential delivery. Nor will it retain lithium when the concentration gradient runs "downhill" towards the bloodstream, and away from the brain.
>
> > It seems they are saying that with oratate, the kidneys do not filter out the lithium as much, and yet there is MORE lithium in the heart, kidneys and presumably other organs..like brain, thyroid etc..and the kidney WEIGHT is increased..presumably as it is not functioning as well??
>
> Probably edema, but I don't that's a good thing.
>
> You will recall that I mentioned that the rat study used equivalent amounts of the two lithium salts. By whatever mechanism more lithium is retained in these tissues, current human dosage recommendations (as given at the Serenity site, for example) are so very low relative to therapeutic doses of the carbonate or citrate prescribed for mood stabilization, I cannot see how the orotate could possibly work, as described.
>
> > <the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function.>
> >
> > So it looks like they may be saying you do get highrr levels in the organs but the kidneys are no longer filtering the blood efficiently, so the lithium stays in the kidney, brain, thyroid, heart etc and doesn't get removed as fast?
>
> That's what they're suggesting. Rather than a higher delivery/uptake rate, they're saying that the higher retention is due to kidney toxicity.
>
> > Does this mean the kidnys themselves are not removing other things as fast also?..I'm assuming so..
>
> I would make the same assumption.
>
> > I have heard many folks swear that orotates were better and the way to go..eg. calcium orotate, magnesium oratate, potassium orotate.
> > Does the oratate itself affect the kidneys ? and is this why the orotate form of minerals "works" better
>
> Quite possibly. There is one profound form of ignorance carried over from generation to generation, which is epitomized by the existence of lists such as GRAS (generally recognized as safe), used for food additives, for example. Substances on that list have probably never been tested for safety. That we have used them for years, and no one has *obviously* died from their use, does not mean they are safe. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
>
> At present, I will scrupulously avoid two forms of salts, those with orotate, and those with piccolinate.
>
> > Like should we AVOID orotates as it may harm kidney function.
>
> You anticipate me well. :-)
>
> > For other begiiners like me who have no idea on the kidneys , I came across this, which helps explain kidbey function
> > http://rarediseases.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niddk.nih.gov%2Fhealth%2Fkidney%2Fpubs%2Fglomer%2Fglomer.htm
>
>
poster:tealady
thread:257732
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/257732.html