Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 8:26:03
In reply to Re: SSRIs increase cortisol? (was: Sledgehammer ....) » Larry Hoover, posted by MB on August 13, 2003, at 22:29:41
> > > Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
> > >
> > > http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
> > > and
> > > http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ram
> >
> > Just to clarify, I didn't recommend them. I haven't had the time to listen to them, yet. My ancient computer couldn't even *do* media files. I just got it to work today. I'll let you know what I think.OK. I got 3/4 of the way through the first one, and I just had to turn it off. I can only take so much bad science at one time....
> Clarification noted...I do appreciate the link though. I like to hear other opinions (even when biased...I guess all opinions are biased to a degree...)
Yes, they are. And I wish that was the first thing that everyone thought about. "Turn the filters on."
> > One opinion seldom counts for much, in my opinion. <irony intended>
>
>
> Yeah, this is very true. Also, this woman makes many leaps to causation based solely on correlattions (a disease rate goes up in a town where a doctor is prescribing a lot of Prozac, so she leaps to blaming the Prozac...just not scientific).I don't know where to start. I wish I kept notes while I listened. She's saying SSRIs cause Alzheimer's? And links to the Bible are truly bizarre, IMHO.
> But if cortisol levels really *are* doubled by SSRIs (as she claims) that is pretty knarly...however, some people take Prozac for years without developing the Cushing's-like symptoms that too much cortisol (I think) would produce. Anyway, even if it's not enough to cause Cushing's, I think too much cortisol can't be a good thing.
Some depressives are high-cortisol. Some are low. Some are hypo-responsive to adrenal challenge (e.g. dexamethasone challenge). Some are not. Are they different diseases, or the same disease at a different stage (I'm thinking something along the line of the different stages of stress adaptation, where the final stage is exhaustion). You'd have to have more than anecdote to determine if Cushing's syndrome (or anything masquerading as such) has anything whatsoever to do with SSRIs (or any drug). Geographic clusters of any symptom could very well be nothing more than a virus attacking people with comingled genes (people in one location tend to marry people from the same location).
Post-marketing surveillance of drug side-effects is a very important task of government, vis a vis public safety. Just take mental note of the number of drugs that have recently been withdrawn from the market because of rare but life-threatening side effects. The very idea that this is some sort of government/big pharma conspiracy to protect SSRI meds from similar oversight is absurd. Given the huge number of people medicated, it would be inconceivable that some people would *not* have serious, even life-threatening, side-effects. However, just as you cannot apply statistics to individuals, you cannot generalize from individual experience. The sword of reason cuts both ways.
My biggest criticism of this quack (I don't use the term very often) is the absence of any consideration of confounding variables. The second biggest is the leap from correlation (not even proven) to causation. My third biggest criticism is her use of name-dropping (that is a logical fallacy, referring to "experts" when it is the data that should be critically assessed). The fourth is to refer to research conducted 50 years ago as evidence of *anything*. She quotes some dead white man as saying that serotonin is a neuro-toxin. Puh-lease! The fifth is to say that people need not fear, as she has the solution to all ills (essential oils). As if she'd be the only person to make note of such a phenomenon, if it really existed. I could go on, but I'll stop now.
> > Given the conditions you've stated, the drugs are worth the risk. That's when I use drugs.
>
>
> Yeah, I think it's worth the risk. I would like to get my cortisol levels tested, though. My doctor would probably think I was crazy for asking...Probably not, actually, if my own doctor can serve as an example. Get your DHEA/DHEA-S tested at the same time.
> >
> > > The medication doesn't work that well anyway.
> >
> > If it gets you away from the suicidal ideation.....
>
>
> That's the big thing, I guess, isn't it?The *only* issue, at the time, IMHO. Drug side-effects? Whatever. What's the "side-effect" of suicidality?
>Also, my OCD symptoms are better on the Lexapro. I was killing myself with a pathologically perfectionist outlook on life (it made school horrible) and the Lex has helped with that.
As has cognitive reassessment. I can "see" you doing it.
> > If you think that nicotine is the "deciding factor", you don't need to smoke to get nicotine. Consider trying one of the nicotine replacement products used by people trying to quit.
> >
> > Lar
>
> I've been chewing the nicotin gum trying to quit smoking (and I figured if it helped the depression, I would just keep chewing it). The funny thing is that the nicotin itself doesn't seem to help. When I smoke, I get an opiate-like feeling and some stimulation. With the nicotin gum, I just get the stimulation. I'm wondering if there's something else in the *smoke* itself besides the nicotin that helps the depression. Anyway, the answer to that question may never be found. I'm a recovering opiate addict, so some of the depression might be endorphin related. It's probably high time I started exercising again!!
>
> MBExercise has benefits apart from endorphin release. <intentional understatement>
Best,
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:241945
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030812/msgs/250738.html