![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Toph on October 23, 2005, at 1:41:13
Hours pass since I retired
I ruminate on what's transpired
Worthless son that he has sired
Power, wealth is what's required
First born son, now he's admired
"Can't you love me?" I inquired
"Of course I do," said uninspired
The simple truth is what's desired
Were he my boss, no doubt I'm fired
His favor cannot be acquired
Sleepless nights leave me so tired
Got no relief when he expired.
Posted by Susan47 on October 23, 2005, at 10:57:40
In reply to Setting Son, posted by Toph on October 23, 2005, at 1:41:13
Maybe he was like mine, maybe he was narcissistic.
Or looked to you to do and be everything he'd disappointed himself in.
Do you think that was fair?
Posted by AdaGrace on October 23, 2005, at 12:18:38
In reply to Setting Son, posted by Toph on October 23, 2005, at 1:41:13
Fathers seem to sometimes expect more from their children than they themselves accomplished. As Susan said.
My husband lives his sports dreams through our son. It is embarassing how he boasts and brags on our son's athletic ability, or should I say athletic normalcy. Because although I am only his mother, I see my son's potential in accademics as much more important to work on than his athletic accomplishments. He wants to be a professional ball player. Never mind the sport, he think he will just choose whichever falls into his lap. My comment is, "that's nice son, but what is your backup plan, you have to have a back up plan". B's & C's come so readily to him that he rarely tries for anything stronger. His lack of trying for anything better accademically seems to be non important to his father who is so proud of his tackling ability and his free throw ability.
As I ponder this I am reminded of my own father, the man who used my mother up, literally, until she died tragically in a car accident, when she was nearing 70 years old, and yet had had literally no fun in her life. And he is now using his children up, sucking their very life blood from their body, and for what? For what is this dying desire to make us forever his slaves and do his bidding? Because he is the all powerful, all knowing, all being.......who sired us, yet did not nurture is, who ruled us, but did not teach us, and who used us to till his land, mow his yard, and harvest his vegetables, but did not love us. Was it just because he was a man and didn't know how to show it? Perhaps it was because he was raised by a powerful, yet overbearing mother who loved her church congregation more than her family.
"I bet you wished it was me that died in that car accident" his words ring in my ears.
"Yes, Dad, I do wish it was you" I silently worded in my mind only, yet said, "No, Dad, I wish it was neither of you"
Because like so many, I still wish for acknowledgement, praise, and love, from the man who is supposed to above all others, love me unconditionally for who I am, not what I can do or provide.
Is my husband doing the same to my son? In many ways, yes. But I see potential. Am I doing the same to my son? I fear I might be.
AdaGrace
Posted by sal0805 on October 23, 2005, at 14:53:01
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by AdaGrace on October 23, 2005, at 12:18:38
OUCH
Posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 16:24:15
In reply to Re: Setting Son, posted by Susan47 on October 23, 2005, at 10:57:40
> Maybe he was like mine, maybe he was narcissistic.
>He has always been about him. We went flyfishing in Alberta for a couple weeks. Countless hours together floating the river, eating meals together, sharing a motel room without him ever once, not even one time, asking me about my job, my family or anything about his son. But I got so sick of listening to stories I've heard a dozen times. It's not like he's confused or anything, mentally he's sharp. I don't know susan, maybe its like your ex-T, you seem to want more, something you can't have.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 16:29:39
In reply to Setting Son, posted by Toph on October 23, 2005, at 1:41:13
Yeah trying to get affection from my Dad can be like trying to get blood from a stone too.
Mostly... I'm the embarrasment. The reminder of his unsatisfactory and painful history with my Mother. I'm a reminder because I'm just like her in a way. Emotionally reactive.And then there is my history of mental illness. A source of embarrassment. He used to keep me away from the rest of the family (his side) because of that. And then there was the medication and my weight problem for a while there...
And now...
I get invitations to things... Going out for someones birthday or whatever. And people ask me what I'm up to with my life. And they seem impressed. Academia. Wow. And so now I'm socially acceptable. And you should see the look on my Fathers face when other people seem impressed with me. And then he will have a few too many and come sloshing up to me and ambling on about how proud he is of me and he thought I was going to be a nothing a nobody just in hospital all the time. Or living with crazy people who were going nowhere doing nothing in supported accomodation.
And I just want to cringe and pull away from him.
Judgemental m*therfucker.
Now I'm all of a sudden good enough.And he will go on and on about how he never had the opportunity to go to university etc etc.
But he has no f*cking idea.
And their house...
Is cold.Better now that they have a dog.
That dog gets more love than I ever did.
But thats not a comment on me.
Its a comment on them.
Their maturity.They don't have any more to give.
They never did.
Their hearts are cold
And its all a matter of keeping up appearances...Leave them to it I say.
But as they get older...
Cringe.What am I going to do?
Who knows...
But it is funny that now...
Just now...
Just over the last couple of years...
I sometimes catch them trying to gain my approval.Thats when my Father isn't trying to fit in with being a racist jock with his insecure mates
Or when my Stepmother isn't trying to keep up with the Jones' with her interest in opera and ballet and her expensive crystal collection.
I mean family is one thing...
Having the perfect house
The perfect knick knacks
The perfect clothes
The perfect image
Just can't compareI know where their priorities lie...
But all thats left for me to do is to forgive
And try my damndest not to perpeptuate the cycle...
Posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 16:41:46
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by AdaGrace on October 23, 2005, at 12:18:38
I'd like to think I have been a better parent than my father was at showing them my love and support, but I am afraid that isn't saying much. Like your husband I lived through my son's baseball. I was even one of the few dads who attended the parents' meetings for my daughter's pon p*m squad. When my other daughter one the regional spelling bee I yelled yes so loud the whole auditorium turned to look at me. Maybe these are all just a vicarious form of narcissistic validation also.
Posted by Susan47 on October 24, 2005, at 20:45:06
In reply to Re: Setting Son, posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 16:24:15
Yes, undoubtedly that's transference.
Plus anyone who's hurt in loving someone else has that feeling.
The feeling that you want something or someone you can never have.
I mean, that denial is so elemental to our being.
It starts in infancy.
Maybe it's like this. Maybe the more you're denied as an infant, the more you require as an adult.
Unless you can heal yourself.
Posted by Susan47 on October 24, 2005, at 20:52:35
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 16:29:39
> I get invitations to things... Going out for someones birthday or whatever. And people ask me what I'm up to with my life. And they seem impressed. Academia. Wow. And so now I'm socially acceptable. And you should see the look on my Fathers face when other people seem impressed with me. And then he will have a few too many and come sloshing up to me and ambling on about how proud he is of me and he thought I was going to be a nothing a nobody just in hospital all the time. Or living with crazy people who were going nowhere doing nothing in supported accomodation.
>
> And I just want to cringe and pull away from him.
> Judgemental m*therfucker.Alex,
I'm thinking, well, maybe not exactly. If my father said all this stuff to me, and I'm pretty certain my whole family knows I'm not flat-out "normal" like they-all are (OMIGOD!!!)
if he said this to me just even one more time, one more goddamn put-down you old bastard you ...
I'd feel like you too. Judgemental m*therfucker.
BUT
I'm going, okay, now.. does he really see people in this way?
Is this his fear talking, his fear and his anger at his own fallibility and the example he shed on you, too .. the shame he feels because you're his progeny, damn it, so now he's under the microscope ...
Well, some people really are like that.
They're totally flawed in that way.
They can't get past themselves no matter what.So, I started out thinking about your father with a soft heart, and now I just feel sorry for the old bastard.
Posted by Susan47 on October 24, 2005, at 20:56:15
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 16:29:39
"And their house...
Is cold.Better now that they have a dog.
That dog gets more love than I ever did.
But thats not a comment on me.
Its a comment on them.
Their maturity.They don't have any more to give.
They never did.
Their hearts are cold
And its all a matter of keeping up appearances..."Are you my abusive small-minded bitch sister? Because it sounds like you and I have the same parents. Sorry. I had to vent that.
Yeah, my parents love their damn dog more than they ever showed us kids. It hurt at first. Now I'm really truly immune.
I like that.
Posted by Susan47 on October 24, 2005, at 20:59:51
In reply to Re: Setting Son » AdaGrace, posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 16:41:46
Toph, Today and I mean this truly from my heart and my head both.. today is the only thing, this moment you're in right now, is the only thing that really matters.
Every new moment is a new opportunity to change what you're not happy about.. and I don't know any other way to say that right now except I know it sounds placid and over/under/wrought.
I just don't know how else to put it.
Forget the effing bad things you're flaying yourself with. You're the only one who sees them that way.
Your kids were in their own skins.
And you have the power to change their perceptions of the past.
The present gives you that every moment.
Especially because they're still talking to you.
If they'd cut you off, things would be different.
You would have no chance to change things.
But you do.
And you won't take it without flogging yourself every single time.
But why? Toph, what's the purpose behind your self-recriminations? You have a good mind. Purpose. What is it?
Posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 21:59:25
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by Susan47 on October 24, 2005, at 20:59:51
Why? I think I have reconciled myself to my past and my physical and mental imperfections. I'm largely able to recognize most of the good I have done and the positive aspects of who I am. Then why the pain, susan? It's because today and every day I can't free myself from the utter disappointment I have in myself and how imperfect I am. I have never fully understood why I am so unhappy. It's sad that I have resigned myself to always feel this way.
Posted by Toph on October 25, 2005, at 8:38:21
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Susan47, posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 21:59:25
In rereading the above post the contradiction is glaring. I suppose that I can accept my imperfections intellectually, emotionally is another matter. Still, self-acceptance, contentment and happiness are elusive, and the cynic in me would also say illusory.
Enough, an end to the pity party.
Posted by Susan47 on October 25, 2005, at 21:55:40
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Susan47, posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 21:59:25
I was rereading what you wrote as well, and I could see your contradictions after you mentioned them. Isn't that funny? I overlooked the connection completely, the first time.
Thanks for bringing it up though, because what I was thinking is baloney, the first statement is not totally true. Because if you've "reconciled" you haven't aimed high enough.
Your inside emotional life knows the truth, and now your head knows it, too. Because if you see your "imperfections" of course you're in pain. At least you recognize where the pain's coming from, now. A lot of it, anyway. Don't you think? Or are you going to crawl away and ignore me again?
I hate it when you do that, it feels bad. But I'm just thinking out loud.
Posted by Susan47 on October 25, 2005, at 21:57:17
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Susan47, posted by Toph on October 24, 2005, at 21:59:25
Excuse me, you said in your last sentence that it's "Sad" (really?) you've "resigned" yourself to always feel this way. So you already know, then, that that's not the way you want to feel.
Okay.
Posted by Susan47 on October 25, 2005, at 22:00:06
In reply to Re: Setting Son, posted by Toph on October 25, 2005, at 8:38:21
The name of one of my family's boats, when I was a kid. A thirty-eight foot race-hulled sailboat, and what a life we had.
Well, okay, aside from that, contentment and happiness and all that stuff is possible in brief spurts only, for most of us I think, those of us lucky enough to know it anyway .. and it's the learning to live between moments that needs to be done.
You can learn it, Toph, and so can I, and I honestly, in a silly and naive way, believe we can help each other from here on the road to there.
I love you, Toph. Don't go away. We all love you. (I think)
Posted by Toph on October 26, 2005, at 9:11:22
In reply to Elusive » Toph, posted by Susan47 on October 25, 2005, at 22:00:06
It's so nice to hear you say nice things about me. I think that I have been genuine on Babble, so that if we were to meet I think you would know me. I don't ignore you or anyone, well, except two people I can think of who I never felt safe conversing with. I regret that I can't devote more time here anymore, I loved it when it was the focus of my day, but now I just scan for friends like you to have an occasional interaction. I know how you feel though, there have been countless occasions when I wrote something important to me or something I felt was profound or creative only to have no response. It seems so infantile to need affirmation like that.
Sailing, ah sailing. My parent bought a Sunfish when I was 12. None of my brothers was interested in it. But I used to sail out into Lake Michigan until the shoreline was barely visible. God knows how I'm still alive because those are the shipping lanes and once I was out in a tornado. I was barely able to get the mast down in time. I was in a few regattas but I sucked - not OCD enough, I think. I always thought tipping over was half the fun, anyway. I love water, scuba, waterskiing, fishing, I was a swimmer in high school and college, I even own a Portuguese Water Dog which are also swimmers.
I love you too, Suzie. You have entrusted us with your soul. I hope we have been good stewards. See you around and keep your jib trim.
Toph
Posted by Damos on October 26, 2005, at 17:44:46
In reply to Setting Son, posted by Toph on October 23, 2005, at 1:41:13
Mate, I'm sorry I haven't posted on this thread earlier, I really am. Toph, it's been like looking in a mirror for me. It's been really hard to be confronted by all this stuff you keep squashed deep down inside. Stuff you've said, stuff Alex said, words that so easily could've come from me.
Guess I just wanted to say "Thank you" for this thread; for your honesty; aw sh*t, for a whole bunch of stuff. Not gonna go all unblokey on you or anything but your being here, your being who you are means a lot to me mate.
Take care okay.
Posted by Susan47 on October 26, 2005, at 21:52:57
In reply to Re: Elusive » Susan47, posted by Toph on October 26, 2005, at 9:11:22
>
> Sailing, ah sailing. My parent bought a Sunfish when I was 12. None of my brothers was interested in it. But I used to sail out into Lake Michigan until the shoreline was barely visible.I have a girlfriend, my best friend, who grew up on Lake Ontario, sailing with her parents and her brother .. I lived on Lake Ontario too, briefly, as a kid, and I can tell you Toph, the one thing I really really miss is the giggly-frightening thunderstorms, the ones that shook the house to its core and rattled the windows .. I can also remember the beautiful colours of the sky as the storm came in. And the anticipation with the changing atmosphere .. and the first drops hissing as they hit the ground, and the steam, all the lovely wet steam and the smell of musty warm asphalt ... God, those were like, the best days of my childhood. Y'know? I never sailed like you did, but I wish I had. I wish I could do that by myself.
I might take lessons, you know?
I sailed a fair bit with my parents ... even in Hawaii, and although nature was heavenly and there was an incredible night sail between the islands, with warm wind and waves, whitecapped, and the phosphorescence, and it was all wasted ...."God knows how I'm still alive because those are the shipping lanes and once I was out in a tornado. I was barely able to get the mast down in time. I was in a few regattas but I sucked - not OCD enough, I think.".... I would have loved to have sailed with you, I wish, Toph, I wish I'd known you then, when you were a kid. Because I'll bet you were awesome. I would have had a huge crush on you. I'll bet there were a lot of girls who crushed you .. did you know it? Do you know it now? You were that for your wife .. are you still? Wow. Can you imagine? How fantastic, how fabulously full of emotional possibility a life can be ... I know how to make my dreams come true ... does that sound like a mantra?
"I always thought tipping over was half the fun, anyway. I love water, scuba, waterskiing, fishing, I was a swimmer in high school and college, I even own a Portuguese Water Dog which are also swimmers."
Wow. What a guy.. Portuguese Water dogs are absolutely beautiful, I love them. I think. Hmm. How big are they? Do they have long hair, or short? Short-haired dogs really usually smell way too much, for me. And long-haired dogs, if you don't keep their eyes, ears, and muzzle clean, well, you can just forget about getting close. Do you and your dog cuddle? That's the best part of owning a dog ...
>
> I love you too, Suzie. You have entrusted us with your soul. I hope we have been good stewards. See you around and keep your jib trim.
> TophYou too, Toph. You too. And yeah, I still love you as much as I did before .. even more ...
MMMwah!
Posted by Susan47 on October 26, 2005, at 21:54:58
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by Damos on October 26, 2005, at 17:44:46
Smooch, I can hear your accent now, smooch smooch .. but I'm so very terrible much older than anybody else here I think, well, a lot of us anyway. Older and more immature? Sigh.
Posted by Susan47 on October 26, 2005, at 21:56:00
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by Damos on October 26, 2005, at 17:44:46
That isn't what I meant. Sigh. :]
Posted by Damos on October 27, 2005, at 17:47:37
In reply to Oh, Damos, I love the way you talk., posted by Susan47 on October 26, 2005, at 21:54:58
Thanks so much Suze. Do me a favour and close your eyes and just relax okay. Now feel my fingertips touching your chin and moving up over your cheeks as my thumbs trace the line of your lips. As my fingers move around to the back of your neck and I raise your face to mine, my lips meet yours - first just one, then the other, then both. Tenderly, gently, firmly, MMMMWWWWAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Have great weekend you deliciously beautiful woman.
Posted by Susan47 on October 27, 2005, at 20:50:48
In reply to Re: Oh, Damos, I love the way you talk. » Susan47, posted by Damos on October 27, 2005, at 17:47:37
Posted by Toph on October 28, 2005, at 9:26:36
In reply to Re: Setting Son » Toph, posted by Damos on October 26, 2005, at 17:44:46
As I've said in a prior unblokey post, you bring a lot of positive carma to the place too Damos.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Writing | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.