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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 9, 2005, at 5:00:08
I feel sad.
Just a sleepy kind of dull ache
But thats about a million times better than
The sharp pains of panic.Been thinking about Dinah and her pictures.
I have a good (imaginary) pic of Dinah with her all coiled around her t's leg. Pictures. I like that.Sometimes when I'm sad I think I feel like I imagine an infant feels like.
When it's not crying exactly, just sort of grizzling. Crying a little I guess. Whimpering. A determined 'things are not okay' but no more than that.My mental pic of me.
I feel trapped there sometimes.
In my infancy.
Childhood.
I don't know.
It is like needs don't get met and so part of you just gets stuck there.
Forever.
Thats what it feels like.
Forever.
I suppose that it is meant to get better one day
(in theory)
But I don't know.
I don't.I'm supposed to have this 'intense fears of abandonment' thing going on.
But I don't feel that way about anyone
Except clinicians.
Does that count?
Or is that an artifact of being in the system.
Hmm.
Do they shape you to fit the mold
So they can feel more comfortable with themselves
With their profession.
WHo knows.
One of my t's said:
'But even if that is what happens. Even if the service creates the behaviours then surely the person would have to have a predisposition or whatever in order to go down that path in the first place'.
Even if certain behaviours are an artifact of involvement in the service I don't think they could be coaxed out of just anyone.
They can evoke a bit here
Repress a bit there
But not change you completely.
Thats just not cost effective...But anyway.
I do.
Thats where the fear of abandonment kicks in.
Probably because it is so much like a parent / child relationship that it brings that out.
Whereas I simply don't get attached to people outside the service in that way.
Not anymore.
It took me three times to learn that lesson.
But it is learned from this point on.
Except with clinicians.Thats why I find it hard to get attached to start with.
Because right from the very beginning I know:
They will leave me.
In a matter of weeks or months.
It is inevitable.
So I don't trust them.Then...
Occasionally...
I learn to trust them.
And get attached.And work starts to be done...
Until the inevitable.
And is this process helping or hurting?
Is it better to work with different people every few months - or nobody at all?
The service has gone with the latter.
And seeing as nobody will committ to working with me for a reasonable period of time then there isn't another option.But even if there was...
Wouldn't that just serve to keep me playing the sick role?
Does it help or does it not help?
Just keep me ruminating?
Does it stop me moving foward?
Getting better?There is a joke - but if you think about it it isn't 'merely' funny. There is more to it than that.
A person saw a psychotherapist for a number of years because he had trouble sleeping becaue he had developed an intense fear of there being some kind of monster under his bed. It didn't get any better after a couple of years of talking about his childhood etc etc - so he decided to go to a behaviourist instead.
After one session with the behaviourist he didn't have problems sleeping anymore. How did the behaviourist do it? He told him to cut the legs off his bed.
Hmm.
I think there is something to be said for that.
I just want to function.
Posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 10:40:49
In reply to sadness, posted by alexandra_k on May 9, 2005, at 5:00:08
cutting the legs off the bed is an action.
It doesn't require that we "have all the answers inside".
I feel that I only have questions inside. If I know WHY I have these questions inside, why can't the T's actually give us concrete "actions" to take to get better??? Isn't it obvious to everyone that when they tell me to "do what is right for me" that I don't know what that IS?!?!?
After 20 yrs of on and off again therapy, no one has realized that I can't figure out what is right for me?!?!? That I am still looking for answers because I DON'T have them?!?!
Seems to me there should be life coaches instead of T's... "thinking about it" or, my personal favorite, "sleep on it" (thus ensuring nights and nights of sleeplessness!)...hunh?!?! Am I missing something here?
Am I impossible to "treat", or am I simply unable to treat myself, like they keep asking me to do!?
Aaaacccckkkk, I could just go on and on asking questions on this subject, but every answer is that "it is all within you".....
Can't someone teach me how to get "it all" OUT of "within me"?!?!?
sorry....feeling frustrated here- probably because I have decided to try again, but am very afraid of ending up with the same outcome as all of my previous attempts. No difference at all...
Posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 13:36:37
In reply to sadness, posted by alexandra_k on May 9, 2005, at 5:00:08
Yeah. Clinicians do count.
That's where all your hurt
will eventually be expressed.
With your clinicians,
and you're smart enough
to be saving it for them.
In the guidelines of a clinical relationship.
Which is what you need.
What I want you to have.
When the time is right, it'll happen.
And you won't feel weak, anymore.
You'll find that the strength
was always inside you.
The needs that were never met
can actually be met by you BUT
and this is big, this really is big,
because it seems to be the only way it happens,
is that until an actual person shows you love,
and love without fear, love with acceptance and nothing
but that, no need of that person needing to be met by you,
until that happens, and that's a clinician's job, to be fearless,
unless that happens, I don't know if you'll understand
that the love is already inside you.
Once again, I've spoken for myself, from my own experience.
But I think you understand.
Posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 20:46:05
In reply to Re: sadness, Alexandra, posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 13:36:37
Sometimes I read what I wrote, and I realize, if someone's reading it in a different voice, I sound like an *ss. But it isn't, it's my voice, mine, and I've said everything with love, so how can it sound so wrong, in a different voice?
Posted by PM80 on May 10, 2005, at 7:44:58
In reply to Re: sadness, Alexandra, posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 20:46:05
Susan, you do not sound anything but beautiful in any voice. Your words were moving to me; you do not sound like an *ss.
Alex, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry that this has been your human experience. You deserve much better. I can't help you with your sadness. I don't have any wisdom there to share. I just wanted you to know that you do good here. That you connect with people here, even if we are not physical beings in your world. You seem to open up here, and what we all see is a truly wonderful person. Just wanted you to know.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 11, 2005, at 2:18:21
In reply to Re: sadness, Alexandra, posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 13:36:37
Na. You aren't an *ss Susan.
I get what you are saying.
But it isn't going to happen.
I'm not going to get therapy.But...
If my 'fears of abandonment' only happen with clinians then remove the clinicians and I guess the problem is solved.
Good old behaviourist solution.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 11, 2005, at 2:20:49
In reply to Re: sadness, posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 10:40:49
Hmm.
Thats where talking can help.
In talking about stuff
Being prompted to consider different things
The therapist should be able to help YOU work out what YOU want and need etc.Little help.
I don't think that is too much to ask...
But then what do I know...
Because apparantly
It is
Posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 9:09:06
In reply to Re: sadness » sunny10, posted by alexandra_k on May 11, 2005, at 2:20:49
Why aren't you going to get therapy?
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 10:03:03
In reply to Re: sadness » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 9:09:06
Posted by alexandra_k on May 11, 2005, at 16:15:02
In reply to Re: sadness » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 9:09:06
Posted by Damos on May 11, 2005, at 17:25:30
In reply to Re: sadness, Alexandra, posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 20:46:05
Can't say I ever though that about anything you've posted. Your posts are always uniquely Susan in so many ways and always bring insight and intelligence. I know what you mean though, I get that feeling too sometimes.
Posted by Damos on May 11, 2005, at 22:18:33
In reply to sadness, posted by alexandra_k on May 9, 2005, at 5:00:08
Something has been bothering since I read this - I mean apart form all the stuff that's usually bothering me.
Does the fact that I feel no love for myself combined with my belief that I am unable to truly love or be loved actually lead me to unconsiously drive people away, because deep down I believe they will leave me anyway because of these feelings and beliefs.
There is enough discomfort here for me to know there is some truth in it. Do I hurt myself now, to hurt myself less later, and by doing so simply reinforce my image and belief about myself? Hmmm
Posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 1:20:32
In reply to Re: sadness » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on May 11, 2005, at 22:18:33
except I think it might be true in my case.
that I am incapable ;-)
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 9:32:35
In reply to Re: of course » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 1:20:32
so sorry about the funding... I must have missed that in my own state of confusion... sorry to hear that!
Yes, I absolutely agree that we push people away because we fear that we are unloveable and want to avoid feeling abandoned again.
A vicious thing to do to ourselves- especially since it really doesn't matter who does the "leaving"; it all feels like abandonment anyway.....
I can honestly say that I've done that before...and, no, wasn't intuitive enough to realize I'd done it without the therapist's help while unravelling the story...
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 9:33:17
In reply to Re: of course » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 1:20:32
Posted by Damos on May 12, 2005, at 17:47:27
In reply to Re: of course » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 1:20:32
Sorry but I beg to differ. Alex I'm not going to embarrass you by telling you depth of feeling that surrounds you. Love, yes love, of a depth, dimension and intensity I don't fully understand and can't and don't want to be able to explain. It just is and it's beautiful.
I think some of us create these incredibly intricate mazes of self defence and 'stuff' that only someone truly special can find a way though because they care enough to be patient and take their time and appreciate the true beauty of the maze and are happy to loose themselves in it because the joy is in the exploration and discovery. They can laugh on arriving at dead ends and needing to retrace their steps and are okay with not knowing what will be at the other side.
I have to believe that there is someone out there who will truly love you, whose lack of need and expectation and happiness just to be, will allow you the possibility to feel loved and to love in return. Know that your posts show an enormous capacity to love whether you see it or not.
Whether you know it or not your also help some of us open the doors to feeling and love within our selves.
Sunny had it soooooo right, we love you Alex.
(((((Alex)))))
Posted by cockeyed on May 20, 2005, at 0:04:11
In reply to sadness, posted by alexandra_k on May 9, 2005, at 5:00:08
Those happy-go-lucky guys PINK FLOYD said it well: "all in all your just another brick in the wall." But "artifact of the system" that is truly chilling. I mean just plain naked steel bar cold. Pity the poor "clinician". I don't know why that came out. But after an experience I had it rings what's left of my bell. Tell the truth, I don't know what sadness is. I'm usually enraged or despairing or flying narcissistic circles around myself. I guess I can't have any pudding if I won't eat my meat. How can I have any pudding if I won't eat my meat? That's my question. Lord knows I'm going off but here's a bit of a joke: "If you wanta be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife." Ah, a recipe for happiness.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 4:51:37
In reply to Re: sadness, posted by cockeyed on May 20, 2005, at 0:04:11
Daddy's flown across the desert
Leaving just a memory
Snapshot in the family album
hey daddy
what ya leave behind for me?Hmm.
Posted by cockeyed on June 3, 2005, at 23:57:59
In reply to Re: and there were three parts to the wall » cockeyed, posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 4:51:37
> Daddy's flown across the desert
> Leaving just a memory
> Snapshot in the family album
> hey daddy
> what ya leave behind for me?
>
> Hmm.hi, alexandra, just read your poem...an arrow straight to the heart. 13 years ago I'd stopped drinking and drugging and I was...happy? I saw the last picture of my father taken before he died at 50. he was a wizened, poor little old man. I was off my pink cloud til prozac came to the rescue. I'm 63 and the cardiologist plumbers have unplugged my pipes so many times that I've come to love my med insurance companies. So what the hell did the old man leave me? Me. Not much, but me, and I'm still here. I guess that's supposed to mean something.
You nailed it. That snapshot told me what my old man spent so that I'd have a better life than he had. And I have. I can tell my grandsons of his wisdom, of how he knew the score...a cliche,perhaps, I learned not to be cruel and pick on kids because they are there, whining, underfoot. But He was, despite his cruelty, a man who was good despite all the miserable crap he suffered.he was true. Thanks, I'm not so cockeyed afterall.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2005, at 2:36:53
In reply to Re: and there were three parts to the wall, posted by cockeyed on June 3, 2005, at 23:57:59
:-)
That was pink floyd.
There really were three parts to the wall.
Part one, part two, and part three.
Can't remember which part that was.
The other one is better known.
This is the end of the thread.
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