![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by sunny10 on April 25, 2005, at 11:56:22
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by PM80 on April 25, 2005, at 8:26:28
1) you are a wonderful person. It has been my experience that all people have weird thoughts about their parents. Different "weird", maybe, but all weird and all stemming from expecting them to meet our needs... You are no different nor are you bad for writing it down for us.
2) everyone who suffers from low self-esteem has used sex to "get love". It doesn't work, but that doesn't prevent us from trying to "please people to get them to like/love us". I've done it, you've done it. Frankly, almost everyone I know has done it at one time or another.. The mature ones have outgrown it. Not sure you and I have, but at least we are strarting to understand enough to question our motives...surely that is half the "maturing"!?!
3) if you stay on Efexxor XR, you will lose your sex drive anyway and these thoughts will start to subside so that you aren't "non-depressively, clear-headedly" thinking about them all the time!!!Hang in there, sweetie, you are doing AWESOME!!!!!!
XOXOXOXOXOXOX
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 12:57:33
In reply to Crap crap crap, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 1:15:46
People don't leave you if you make them feel good, but that's more of an all-around thing than a sexual one. And you can't make anyone feel good unless they're open to it, and unless you feel good about them in the first place. You weren't really talking just about sex, were you?
Posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 13:08:46
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 1:58:13
YOU ARE NOT F*CKED UP!!!
Listen to me.
The counsellor you saw when you were fourteen,
she was a major Bitch.
So of course now, every single time
so *sshole T terminates you,
the same feelings of rejection
and shame come up again and again.
But it wasn't ever your fault,
you know that in your head,
no matter how much you wanted
this man to love and care for you,
he was an *sshole for leading you on.
I know what that feels like.
I know what it's like
to be led, then discarded
because someone decided you weren't
important enough.
Damn all those shallow, selfish,
insecure people.
Write this counsellor a letter, Alex.
Write him a letter even though it was twelve years ago.
The letter is now twelve years overdue.
Let this idiot know how selfish he was.
Don't be ashamed of any of your feelings.
And send the damn thing.
Because no matter what, you ARE as
important as he is.
And his wife was a bitch to be calling
a fourteen year-old girl and laying
the blame on her.
Mention her in the letter, too.
Don't let them get away with the way they treated you.
Because in the end, their marriage will not survive.
They're both too immature.
I'll bet even now they're no longer together
And if they are,
it ain't easy.
Posted by sunny10 on April 25, 2005, at 13:13:28
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 12:57:33
people leave other people all the time and it doesn't have to mean ANYTHING about you!!! It's certainly not whether you please them sexually or not!!
People leave other people for THEIR OWN REASONS, not because we did anything right or wrong, Suze!!!
you certainly did nothing wrong- you went to therapy, poured out your guts and expected help. EXACTLY AS A PATIENT IS SUPPOSED TO DO! He was the one who did something wrong, isn't he???!!!
Okay, down, sunny-girl....Calming down... breathing in, breathing out....
Outburst over...
Posted by sunny10 on April 25, 2005, at 14:50:21
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » Susan47, posted by sunny10 on April 25, 2005, at 13:13:28
writing her second one....
She's right!!
Posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 15:31:02
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » Susan47, posted by sunny10 on April 25, 2005, at 13:13:28
Hi sweetie. I haven't read your last post on the thread but I think it's cool that we're on at the same time. You know I was just talking in general, right? But in fact, nothing any of us ever says is "in general", is it? I mean, it all relates to something we've experienced. But about my therapist, this man C, you know? I realize now, I think, that everything that was emotional to me, was sexual to him. Because of course he wasn't emotionally involved in the therapy relationship, and I was. I'm beginning to come to terms with that. And lose some of my anger over the way that I think he needed to be needed by me, then pretty much dumped me with his fears. There isn't any doubt in my mind at all that I was a difficult patient because he didn't discuss my feelings of love for him with me. And attraction, yes there was a lot of sexual attraction from me for him as well. He just basically smoothed that over as though it didn't exist. I certainly gave him lots of reasons to talk to me about stuff. It was the worst thing, I really did go crazy for a long, long time. Too long. I lost a lot of touch with reality.
If I hadn't had you and Alex and Toph here with me, to name a very few, I know I wouldn't be feeling as whole as I do today. So thank you.
Posted by anastasia56 on April 25, 2005, at 17:46:22
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 1:58:13
you don't sound screwed up. you sound like so many of us. you needed affection. this is where you could get it. not bad, not good. simply what it was. i wouldn't read your father into this any more than to say he wasn't giving you the affection a child needs...as a father to a daughter. you went elsewhere to find it. where you got it wasn't as important to you at the time as just having someone hold you.
Posted by Damos on April 25, 2005, at 18:11:08
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 2:04:03
Dearest Alex,
You are so incredibly brave, and I am so immensely proud to be your friend and to know you.
What those men did was wrong, plain and simple. What the counsellor did was wrong plain and simple. The thoughts you express about your father are neither bad nor wrong. They are just painfully honest and completely understandable given what you have been through.
Trading sex for love and security or whatever doesn't work. Trading anything for them doesn't work. They're offered openly and freely or they're not. To make them conditionally available is to make them unavailable if that makes sense. I've learned these things the hard way by trading my heart and soul my very essence only to be left with nothing but an enormous empty void.
What you don't know about me is that for the last 9 years I have shared a house with a woman who MS (Multiple Sclerosis) and am now essentially her de-facto carer. I moved in when she dislocated her elbow in a fall (she had no family nearby or other support) and did pretty much everything. She could still walk okay then just not very far. She needed to move out of her unit because the stairs were too much and she also needed to stop working because her eyesight and things were gettingj worse. So I agreed to buy a villa with her and to pay all the ongoing bills so she could keep her money for when things got bad, since we got on okay and I believed no one could ever love me and this was about all I could ever expect.
She can now barely walk and I now prepare and inject her medication every second day, run her to appointments and the shops and most other stuff. She has also asked me to help her end it when it all gets too much. The sicker she has got the worse her fear of abandonment has become to the point where I will be emailed and/or called a dozen times and day while at work and constantly if I am at the shops or something. She has driven everyone else away, so there's just me. AS the disease has progressed her frustration and anger have grown in equal proportions. So I do not go out, I do not have visitors I do not live. So now I have a house (well half a one) but no home, a relationship but no connection, caring but no love, life but no living. Will I leave? No, probably not, because that's not who I am. Does it kill me a little more every day, absolutely in so many ways. If it wasn't for puppy and all of you I don't know how I'd survive.
Don't ever settle for less than you deserve Alex. You are so amazingly worthy of love and I hope with all my heart that it finds you soon and is all you ever hoped for.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:17:33
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by PM80 on April 25, 2005, at 8:26:28
Thanks.
I was ambivalent about posting this.
I have been thinking about how sometimes you can say something and it changes things forever.
I mean things do change over time and as a function of what people say, of course.
But some things seem to irrevocably change things for the worse.
And I guess I started worrying about what I posted.
But phew
As usual
People here are just the best.
Thanks for what you wrote
Thanks for your kind words :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:22:46
In reply to Re: three things, Alex, posted by sunny10 on April 25, 2005, at 11:56:22
(((Sunny)))
Yeah, people do have lots of weird things going on. I just worried that this was a little too weird.> 2) everyone who suffers from low self-esteem has used sex to "get love". It doesn't work, but that doesn't prevent us from trying to "please people to get them to like/love us". I've done it, you've done it. Frankly, almost everyone I know has done it at one time or another.. The mature ones have outgrown it. Not sure you and I have, but at least we are strarting to understand enough to question our motives...surely that is half the "maturing"!?!
Yeah. I guess I really discovered that one at 14. I realised I was too old for people to care about me like a kid, where sex wasn't a part of that. And that I had missed out on that anyways, it was too late because my parents didn't love me. And nobody would ever love me like they were supposed to have because nobody else was my parents (I used to fantasise that I was adopted so I might have a better chance with some other peoples). And I was too old anyway. It was too late for me. So I thought that the way that you got love as an adult was to have an 'adult' relationship and that meant sex. I don't know.
> 3) if you stay on Efexxor XR, you will lose your sex drive anyway and these thoughts will start to subside so that you aren't "non-depressively, clear-headedly" thinking about them all the time!!!
Yeah. I think that is starting to affect me already (in that way). Hmm. I do wonder sometimes if that is an intended side affect of psych meds. To try and prevent 'people like us' having kids... I don't know. Just my paranoia talking I suspect.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:23:33
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 13:08:46
>You weren't really talking just about sex, were you?
Hmm. I thought I was. What do you mean?
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:27:00
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by anastasia56 on April 25, 2005, at 17:46:22
> i wouldn't read your father into this any more than to say he wasn't giving you the affection a child needs..
Yeah. Thats the yukiest part of it all... I try not to go there. But the thought did occur to me, that was true.
>you went elsewhere to find it. where you got it wasn't as important to you at the time as just having someone hold you.
Yeah. Thats why I don't really consider it 'abuse' or at least that is why I am really ambivalent about calling it 'abuse'. Because I asked for it. I mean that literally. I really did and at least part of me wanted it. And that was the part that I showed to them. So it wasn't really abuse. Thats what I figure anyway. I mean, I understand that they shouldn't have done that and they shouldn't have put me in that position in the first place and they were married and in a position of authority etc etc. But they didn't see any part of me as unwilling - and I never showed them that part (aside from almost crying with the first one) but I kept that part well hidden after that.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:54:17
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on April 25, 2005, at 18:11:08
> You are so incredibly brave, and I am so immensely proud to be your friend and to know you.
And you Damos. I feel the same way about you. I was staggered by your openness and honesty with what you shared over on social about this. And over on social! I have to admit that I bring stuff over here because of the smaller audience. Maybe it is just the illusion of a smaller audience, but things feel smaller and more intimate and private over here than on social.
> What you don't know about me is that for the last 9 years I have shared a house with a woman who MS (Multiple Sclerosis) and am now essentially her de-facto carer.You never came right out and said that but you have said that you lived with a woman with MS before. So I kind of figured that part of it...
Wow Damos.
Really.I digress...
But this is sort of (sort of) relevant (I think).I got on really great with one of my teachers at high school. English was my favourite subject and we had to journal. I used to pour my guts out in my journal. Write poems and short stories and philosophical rambellings. I used to go and talk to her as well. About how sh*tty my life was etc etc. Eventually... (once I was 16) she told me that she had feelings for me. I told her that I had feelings for her too (and after some thought I made that conscious decision - and then, well, then I really did believe it was true.) She was in a relationship with another woman (who was very sick) but they were fighting and stuff. And she would leave and come and get me and we would go and stay at a motel. That happened a few times. Her partner confronted her (realising she was pretty distracted) and she 'fessed up. Her partner started writing letters to the school. Giving them to kids to hand in to the office on their way to the school. Ringing the school pretending to be a concerned parent. Ringing my house and threatening (anonymously) to do drive-bys etc etc. The school found out (funnily enough) and everyone at school found out. I had to leave - and she did too. She managed to get a job at another school. She managed to get home and get some stuff. But the upshot was that she lost her job her house most of her stuff - most of everything for me. We moved in together. I was with her for 4 years.
She got pretty controlling. Jealous I suppose. She didn't like me hanging with my friends (admittedly we used to drink and drug and do 'kid stuff). After a while I was just home and school, home and school. But she helped me return to finish my last year (at another school) so I could go to uni which was what I most wanted to do. But I really don't think I could have done that on my own.
She helped me through my first year at uni. Proofreading my work etc. After the first 6 months... I realised that I didn't love her 'like that'. I had never wanted to touch her in that way. Kissing was ok. But that was all. But after 6 months I didn't even like that anymore. I didn't mind her touching me. But after a while I didn't even really like that. But she had given up everything for me. And I felt so bad, so very bad that I didn't feel that way about her. I thought there was somthing really very wrong with me that I couldn't feel that way about her. I guess she realised this - and that was why she turned controlling and didn't like me going out. Because she was worried I would meet someone else and realise that I felt that way about them and then I would leave her.
(Maybe thats what your 'partner' realises and is afraid of with you. Maybe thats why she feels so insecure and calls all the time and doesn't like you having a life apart from her).
Eventually... Eventually... I couldn't get out of bed in the morning and I ended up in hospital with a major depressive episode. I couldn't tell anyone what was going on for me because the nurses were giving my partner a hard time about being with me already. And if I had told anyone how I felt (even my t) then she would have written it in my file and the nurses would have told my partner or maybe even showed her. And I made the decision that I would NEVER tell her that I didn't reciprocate those feelings because she had given up EVERYTHING for me.
I was sick for a long time. In hospital more than out for about 2 years. In hindsight hospital was preferable than attempting to keep up the charade at home. Death was preferable to having to tell her the truth. I felt so very guilty. And eventually (what I most wanted I suppose) she couldn't handle being with me anymore and she asked me to move out. And I did - into supported accomodation. I was so totally afraid that I wouldn't be able to do varsity without her. I would panic about not doing very well and end up back in hospital with compassionate withdrawals. Eventually I made it through a semester part time and got marks in the 90's. I COULD do it without her. Wow. But it almost killed me. Literally.
And that is a ramble...
And in hindsight...
It was just the same thing as with those guys.
I didn't see it that way at the time
But I see it that way now.
And wow.
I have never told anybody that before.((((Damos))))
Wow. I don't know what to say.
You are so very caring
So very caring
To do that for someone.
But...
But...
It is too much.
You do deserve true love
And I really do believe that it IS possible for you.
You have given up yourself.
Your life.
And you do deserve a life.
And you are capable of having one.
But it is a sh*t of a situation.
(((Damos)))
Hon.
I don't know what to say.
Except that - we are here for you.
Really.
We are here.
Posted by Damos on April 25, 2005, at 20:21:00
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:54:17
Thank you so much for sharing that with I know it can't have been easy. You are so very kind and so very deeply beautiful. My love, respect and admiration for you just continues to grow.
It is immensely difficult to love and care for someone who can make it so terribly hard to even like them, and who can be mercilessly cruel at times. Watching her become more and more disabled isn't easy either. She is also 11 years older than me just for the record. She has also been beaten by previous partners and her ex husband was a violent alcoholic. Somehow I have never been hospitalised, more by luck than good management I think but I know that my chronic long cycling depression has begun to cycle more rapidly in recent years.
I guess the hardest part is that while she's been getting worse I've been working on myself like over on social and growing in many ways. Still struggling on many fronts but feeling things changing inside.
One of the reasons I don't have a computer at home now is that she used to stand over me when I was on it which was almost never and I actually caught her listening to a phone call once - from my boss, I mean really. But I still care about this person and what happens to her despite all this. I'm getting better at pushing back but feel guilty for wanting to live.
Another thing I haven't told anyone is that the last time I did 'it' it left me feeling so cheap and used and worthless and dirty that I rushed out and threw up repeatedly and then just sat in the shower for what seemed like hours. And this was with the woman I had almost had a child with. I told her I had a stomach upset - I can be really pathetic when I want to be. A week later I happened across her at it with someone else. It was a bit hard not to since they were in the lounge room when I came home. It was about that time that I realised that I meant absolutely nothing to anyone.
Sorry to ramble.
((((((((((Alex))))))))))
Posted by sunny10 on April 26, 2005, at 13:43:28
In reply to Re: three things, Alex » sunny10, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:22:46
It's not created to prevent us from having kids, sweetie, don't go to that negative thought.
If ANYTHING, it HELPS us to not repeat those same patterns over and over and hurting ourselves more than we're healing, okay?!?
LET the meds be okay, let them do for you what they can. Try not to place negative connotations on them because that will lead to you feeling like you should get off them because "the establishment is controlling you". Chemicals don't control you or create feelings, people do.
Use the meds to help you. Use them to free your mind to find other ways to create bonds of affection. That's what it is we've been searching for, Alex. We didn't get that from our parents like we should have.
I know it sounds like I'm lecturing- and maybe this time I am. I KNOW that EfexxorXR allowed me to make rational choices that had nothing to do with the "feel good chemicals" that sex produces. Those chemicals lulled me into a false sense of security and feeling of "being loved" many many many times that ended in me getting hurt before I started taking EfexxorXR.
And I'm not taking it any more simply because I don't need it right now. But I will take it again when I need it again (I am a notoriously long cycler).
Lecturing with love,
sunny10
Posted by sunny10 on April 26, 2005, at 13:51:22
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on April 25, 2005, at 20:21:00
you guys...
both of your stories sound similar to mine in one way- we all "care for others at personal risk and pain to ourselves" because we are still looking for unconditional love that we should have received as children.
we need to risk hurting someone else once in a while in order to save ourselves....
Mind you, I'm not sure HOW to accomplish the things we need, but our stories all tell what NOT to do, that's for sure...
I guess I'm just trying to say that we must keep remembering that we are not in this alone.
We have each other and for that I am truly grateful.
hugs and kisses,
sunny10
Posted by Damos on April 26, 2005, at 17:14:59
In reply to Re: Crap crap crap » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 19:54:17
I've lost count of how many times I've read these posts, wanting to know and feel everything you went through and still carry with you. Wanting to take all the suffering, guilt,hurt,pain, fear, sadness, everthing, on as my own and to give you only love and warmth and joy and hope in return. I would gladly take it all if it meant you having the space to heal - gladly.
You're a very, very special young lady Alex.
(((((Alex)))))
Posted by Damos on April 26, 2005, at 17:21:38
In reply to Re: we need to take care of us, for a change, posted by sunny10 on April 26, 2005, at 13:51:22
Thank you Sunny. So knowing and so giving when you're going through so much.
You're an amazing person and I'm so glad to share this place with you.
And you're right Effexor XR was like a window openning to show me a glimpse of what could be.
Hug and kisses to you too.
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on April 27, 2005, at 9:15:53
In reply to Re: we need to take care of us, for a change » sunny10, posted by Damos on April 26, 2005, at 17:21:38
Please feel free to ignore my post and respond to the others, okay?!?
Sorry... sometimes I am too practical...it is difficult to always respond emotionally...
with much love and sincere apologies,
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on April 27, 2005, at 13:11:42
In reply to Re: Alex? I'm sorry if I've offended you, posted by sunny10 on April 27, 2005, at 9:15:53
I know you didn't post to me, but I'm wondering if you're being super-sensitive today, Sunny? You didn't say anything wrong ...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 27, 2005, at 18:18:12
In reply to Re: Alex? I'm sorry if I've offended you, posted by sunny10 on April 27, 2005, at 9:15:53
Yeah Sunny - you didn't do anything wrong.
(Thanks for that Susan).
I'm being quiet because I am thinking...
That is it.
Really.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2005, at 4:58:15
In reply to Re: Alex? I'm sorry if I've offended you » sunny10, posted by alexandra_k on April 27, 2005, at 18:18:12
And I said it before. Right here.
>Yeah. I guess I really discovered that one at 14. I realised I was too old for people to care about me like a kid, where sex wasn't a part of that. And that I had missed out on that anyways, it was too late because my parents didn't love me. And nobody would ever love me like they were supposed to have because nobody else was my parents (I used to fantasise that I was adopted so I might have a better chance with some other peoples). And I was too old anyway. It was too late for me. So I thought that the way that you got love as an adult was to have an 'adult' relationship and that meant sex.And it is too late.
That is it. That is what hurts so much.
That my father left when I needed him.
And that my life turned to sh*t after that.
And there isn't anything in the world that can make up for that or repair that or make that any better or make that go away.And I suppose all I really want is for someone to love me like that. Like I'm a little kid. Their little kid and they love me.
But it ain't gonna happen
It COULDN'T happen because I'm not a little kid
And I'm not THEIR little kid
And because it is too late anyway.And nothing in the world can change that.
And that is what is wrong.
Posted by dove on April 28, 2005, at 9:42:20
In reply to Re: Alex? I'm sorry if I've offended you, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2005, at 4:58:15
Everyone's honesty and sensitivity has moved me greatly, so I will take my own leap of faith...
It is being "chosen" by someone.
Someone, whom is worthy deems me worthy
A being of value wants me
wants my attention, affection
wants to feel me
to look at me
to hear my thoughts
They have chosen to love me
and maybe now I don't feel so worthless...True, maybe they are just using me
or perhaps, I am using them
in this twisted reality
but it feels like I am more than ordinary
less than undesirable.I left my husband for a short period two years ago.
To be with a man of great physical
and intellectual attractiveness
who adored me, controlled me.
Who gave me unwavering attention.
Who gave me undying affection.
Eventually--two weeks after we met--he demanded
that I divorce my husband
and marry him (I did not).Soon, I was not allowed to leave the house except
to go directly to work and back.
I was not even allowed to use the bathroom alone.
He made all my meals and stared at me while I ate them.
He forcefully embedded himself into every aspect of my existence.He became violent and psychotic when I tried to leave.
He stalked me for over a year.
He tried to chop me up with a sword
because I didn't love him enough.
The only reason I am currently free of him
is because he is locked up.
It is not necessarily finished yet...Additionally, I became pregnant by this man
who controlled every med I put in my mouth.
Who allowed me to overdose and kept me
locked in his room unconscious for three days.However, the real tragedy occurred not to me
but to my family.
I had hurt my family enormously.
I had rejected them all for a fling.
Rejected them so I could feel adored.
Realizing only after the injuries were committed
that this does not constitute real love.Real love does not promote itself.
Real love does not indulge every whim
in order to keep you within it's grasp.
Real love has real boundaries
real attachments,
responsibilities,
and it has a conscience.It desires to be reciprocated of free will
and free of charge.
It does not demand superiority.
It does not continuously exploit vulnerabilities
to its advantage.
It is not a cage, a prison or a punishment.
It is not a taskmaster, a slave owner, a warden.
If it resembles any of these
it is a liar.dove
Posted by sunny10 on April 28, 2005, at 11:33:55
In reply to Re: Crap, posted by dove on April 28, 2005, at 9:42:20
that was beautiful, dove.
And the idealist in me wants a real love like that, too.
Thank you for putting it into words.
Posted by sunny10 on April 28, 2005, at 11:37:19
In reply to Re: Alex? I'm sorry if I've offended you, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2005, at 4:58:15
I think we need this love because it is unconditional, Alex. Or, at least, it's supposed to be.
That's what we crave. We don't need someone to feed us ice cream and take us to the park. We need a love like dove wrote about. Someone to love us BECAUSE of and INSPITE of who we really are. That's what real love should be.
To be cherished is my goal; no matter my age,
sunny10
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