![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:08
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> I am glad that you think I heard you in my response Dr. Bob. Now, I feel that at times I too have fallen short of my attempt to teach/ enlighten/ impress upon a lesson civility that I thought would help a person or group. I have found that like a "time-out" to allow reflection on what one did and what one should have done or should do in the future, it is so individualized that it would be impossible to accomplish unless done on a one to one basis.
Excellent! I feel you heard me, and know what it's like yourself, so I feel joined by you. That's a key part of this approach. We've formed a subgroup. We're not alone.
Does anybody else feel they've fallen short? If so, please join corkskru (and our subgroup).
Bob
Posted by corkskru on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:09
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
Does anybody else feel they've fallen short?
Talking over this feeling of falling short with the 3 new members (me, myself and I)as didn't want to bother Dr. Bob until our group has grown a bit... Anyway, falling short could have made me feel bad about my ability to teach what I thought was a valuable lesson, but realizing that civility is much like empathy or creativity in that it is much easier to teach a skill than to teach a talent or trait. I may do all the right things to the fruit trees but that is not a guarantee that the fruit will grow or be abundant. So, to carry the weight of a less than successful outcome as a personal failure, it must be viewed in the context of how much I really can control and feel good that I have done all that I am capable of doing and strive to improve on the next attempt.
Posted by CamW on February 10, 2013, at 1:17:36
In reply to please join me, posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2013, at 1:13:00
Hi Dr. Bob.
I am sorry to see that some things never change.
As for myself, I'd like to apologize for the way that I left so many years ago. I was not in a good space at the time, but that was no excuse for my rudeness. I hope that you will accept my apologies.
Sincerely, Cam
Posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 6:09:13
In reply to Re: please join me » Dr. Bob, posted by CamW on February 10, 2013, at 1:17:36
> Hi Dr. Bob.
>
> I am sorry to see that some things never change.
>
> As for myself, I'd like to apologize for the way that I left so many years ago. I was not in a good space at the time, but that was no excuse for my rudeness. I hope that you will accept my apologies.
>
> Sincerely, Cam
I wasn't very gracious, either. I was very angry.Sorry, Dr. Bob.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2013, at 20:57:35
In reply to Re: please join me, posted by SLS on February 10, 2013, at 6:09:13
> > Hi Dr. Bob.
> >
> > I am sorry to see that some things never change.
> >
> > As for myself, I'd like to apologize for the way that I left so many years ago. I was not in a good space at the time, but that was no excuse for my rudeness. I hope that you will accept my apologies.
> >
> > Sincerely, Cam
>
> I wasn't very gracious, either. I was very angry.
>
> Sorry, Dr. Bob.
>
> - ScottThanks, Cam, I'm glad you're back, and Scott, I'm glad you're still here.
And though you both addressed me, you may have joined corkskru (and our subgroup), since you posted about feeling you'd fallen short. corkskru, do you feel joined? If so, we can continue.
Bob
PS: This method is based on functional subgrouping, developed by Yvonne Agazarian to work with differences and conflicts in groups. See, for example, "Systems-Centered Therapy for Groups". It's used in groups besides therapy groups; trying it out here doesn't make this a therapy group.
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:18:25
In reply to Re: anybody else?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2013, at 20:57:35
Is it rude for me to say that I don't quite understand everything you're saying, but it tends to make me want to giggle? It reminds me a bit of those politically correct dating guidelines that the colleges were handing out a few years ago.
"I'm going to kiss you. Are you ok with that?"
"Yes, I amend our dating agreement to allow kissing, so long as it is accompanied by formal nonverbal notice and right of refusal."
It doesn't have the tone of actual communications.
Can you think of a way to make it more natural than group-like? So as to fit actual conversations on babble? I'd like to cooperate with you, but at this point I don't really feel comfortable doing so.
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:33:26
In reply to Re: anybody else? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:18:25
Mind you, I'm describing my response and my associations based on my life experiences. Not saying that the ideas are inherently worthy of giggles.
They just seem too formal for me to feel comfort with them.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 13, 2013, at 23:45:15
In reply to Re: anybody else? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2013, at 10:18:25
> It reminds me a bit of those politically correct dating guidelines that the colleges were handing out a few years ago.
>
> "I'm going to kiss you. Are you ok with that?"
>
> "Yes, I amend our dating agreement to allow kissing, so long as it is accompanied by formal nonverbal notice and right of refusal."
>
> It doesn't have the tone of actual communications.
>
> Can you think of a way to make it more natural than group-like?Yes: practice.
This feels unnatural to me, too. Even after trying it a number of times already. So I've asked a colleague to coach me.
This feeling could connect with the previous feeling expressed here, of falling short. This feels unnatural, so I could easily feel I'm falling short.
OTOH, something new always feels unnatural. Learning a foreign language, communicating online, being civil -- all might feel unnatural at first, but more natural with practice. It's unrealistic to expect something new to feel natural.
Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
Does anybody else feel this is unnatural?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:32:24
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural, posted by Dr. Bob on February 13, 2013, at 23:45:15
> > Can you think of a way to make it more natural than group-like?
>
> Yes: practice.
>
> This feels unnatural to me, too. Even after trying it a number of times already. So I've asked a colleague to coach me.In what settings do you plan to use this? When do you think it would be appropriate on Babble? I can see it as a therapy technique, though I'd probably bite my therapist's head off if he tried to demonstrate "skills" with me. (Good thing I chose a therapist with enough experience to make his skillset largely transparent.) So please be understanding when some patients find "technique" maddening in a therapeutic setting.
> OTOH, something new always feels unnatural. Learning a foreign language, communicating online, being civil -- all might feel unnatural at first, but more natural with practice. It's unrealistic to expect something new to feel natural.
My kindergarten teacher wrote that Dinah only enjoys doing things she's good at doing. That never really changed. I gave up on my effort to learn Welsh. Being civil, according to the civility guidelines of this site, came naturally to me. Most of the rules made perfect sense to me - possibly through being raised by my kindergarten teacher mother. The rest seemed like a reasonable request by you that we follow the rules of your site, as host to guest.
> Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
Ok, you lost me there. Could you perhaps rephrase? That not only felt uncomfortable but made me blush and feel *uncomfortable*. No offense Dr. Bob. How about "Do you feel understood by me" or "Do you feel like we're communicating as a team" or something. And until that phrase came up, I did. After, I wanted to tell you to please stay in your chair.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:35:51
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:32:24
I will say that if my therapist were to openly acknowledge his use of technique, and perhaps his discomfort with it - as you did here - I would feel far less maddened by it. It *would* feel not only more cooperative, but also less artificial. Because there would be a real human communication on a different level than the technique.
Posted by 10derheart on February 14, 2013, at 20:43:09
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 12:32:24
[trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
>Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
Yes, when I read this I immediately burst out laughing, followed instantly by me shaking my head as I imagined how you (Dinah) would 'hear' that, which made me say, Eewwwwww...." out loud.
For me, it's a combination of sounding like a physical thing which is unwanted/inappropriate, combined with the sense of being asked by the Borg if you realize you're part of their collective after they assimilated you.
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 21:06:51
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on February 14, 2013, at 20:43:09
My sister!
That was *precisely* the overtones it had for me! Some combination of cult groupspeak and TV double entendre. Waiting for Michael Scott to say "That's what she said".
(I'm glad you find parts of Babble safe.)
Posted by 10derheart on February 15, 2013, at 3:30:39
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 21:06:51
>>My sister!
I wish. {{{Dinah}}}
Posted by SLS on February 15, 2013, at 12:33:24
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on February 14, 2013, at 20:43:09
> [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
I hope you find safety here.
I look forward to seeing your name appear more often. I find great value in the things you write. Your posts are thoughtful and caring.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 15, 2013, at 14:37:18
In reply to Re: this feels unnatural » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2013, at 21:06:51
> In what settings do you plan to use this? When do you think it would be appropriate on Babble?
I'm thinking maybe it might be appropriate when posters don't want to feel alone, or don't want other posters to feel alone. Since if someone feels "joined", they won't feel alone.
> My kindergarten teacher wrote that Dinah only enjoys doing things she's good at doing. That never really changed. I gave up on my effort to learn Welsh. Being civil, according to the civility guidelines of this site, came naturally to me. Most of the rules made perfect sense to me
It's natural to enjoy doing things we're good at. Maybe some posters give up on being civil like you gave up on learning Welsh.
> > Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
>
> Ok, you lost me there. Could you perhaps rephrase? That not only felt uncomfortable but made me blush and feel *uncomfortable*. No offense Dr. Bob. How about "Do you feel understood by me" or "Do you feel like we're communicating as a team" or something. And until that phrase came up, I did. After, I wanted to tell you to please stay in your chair.I see it as more than you feeling I understand. It's also that you feel I share the feeling you expressed. That we share that feeling. That we both belong to the subgroup that has that feeling. That you're not alone in having that feeling.
I'm open to different ways to phrase that. How about: "Do you feel we're on the same page?"
> I will say that if my therapist were to openly acknowledge his use of technique, and perhaps his discomfort with it - as you did here - I would feel far less maddened by it. It *would* feel not only more cooperative, but also less artificial. Because there would be a real human communication on a different level than the technique.
>
> DinahExactly. I feel we're on the same page. That we share the feeling that this technique has potential. But that's a different page/subgroup than the feeling-this-is-unnatural page/subgroup.
--
> > Dinah, do you feel joined by me?
>
> Yes, when I read this I immediately burst out laughing, followed instantly by me shaking my head as I imagined how you (Dinah) would 'hear' that, which made me say, Eewwwwww...." out loud.
>
> For me, it's a combination of sounding like a physical thing which is unwanted/inappropriate, combined with the sense of being asked by the Borg if you realize you're part of their collective after they assimilated you.
>
> 10derheart> My sister!
>
> That was *precisely* the overtones it had for me! Some combination of cult groupspeak and TV double entendre. Waiting for Michael Scott to say "That's what she said".
>
> DinahThat's a great example of joining/feeling on the same page. Dinah didn't just feel 10der understood/communicated, she felt 10der had the same feeling she did.
The Borg is involved now to explain and demonstrate this technique. Would it feel more comfortable if the Borg stepped back?
> [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
>
> 10derheartWhat feeling do you think she's expressing? Do you share that feeling? Can you communicate that to her?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 16, 2013, at 0:33:03
In reply to Re: trial run, posted by Dr. Bob on February 15, 2013, at 14:37:18
I think I'm back to being confused.
> I'm thinking maybe it might be appropriate when posters don't want to feel alone, or don't want other posters to feel alone. Since if someone feels "joined", they won't feel alone.
Well, that's likely true. But don't we already do that? If you introduce this technique to use in times of trouble, that's one thing. Although frankly I'm not sure how efficacious it would be then. In fact, I can think of a good number of times when it has been attempted and failed. Both sides need to be involved and interested in trying to find common ground.
But I'm surprised you think this is something we need to learn. Isn't that a good part of what Babble already is? A place to discover that our feelings, reactions, responses to medication, etc. are shared by others? That we're not alone? Babble has always done that, and without a lot of groupspeak or formal effort. It is the bedrock foundation of what Babble already is.
Which does not mean that all babblers find themselves on the same page with all other babblers. Or that they should. Having different experiences, and respecting those different beliefs and experiences leads to feeling part (and being part) of a community as much as feeling on the same page with others.
Frankly Dr. Bob, I often am not on the same page with you. But I can try to understand why you're on the page you're on, what page you want to be on, etc. I can respect your experiences without necessarily sharing them. I can even try to help you find what you need from Babble, even if it isn't what I need from Babble.
Isn't that also a way for people to feel together?
> I see it as more than you feeling I understand. It's also that you feel I share the feeling you expressed. That we share that feeling. That we both belong to the subgroup that has that feeling. That you're not alone in having that feeling.
>
> I'm open to different ways to phrase that. How about: "Do you feel we're on the same page?"Much better.
> Exactly. I feel we're on the same page. That we share the feeling that this technique has potential. But that's a different page/subgroup than the feeling-this-is-unnatural page/subgroup.
Well, we might or might not. My feelings don't fit so neatly into a subgroup. And I don't really feel understood or on the same page when people come to conclusions about how I feel or think.
> That's a great example of joining/feeling on the same page. Dinah didn't just feel 10der understood/communicated, she felt 10der had the same feeling she did.
But 10der and Dinah *did* have the same feeling. And Dinah expressed her delight in it, just as 10der has expressed the same delight in similar situations.
But Dr. Bob, it was a delight. Those moments of attunement are so rare and so unexpected that delight is the natural consequence.
Trying to program ourselves to come to that moment more often won't make the moments come more often. And it may rob the moments of the delight they naturally contain.
> The Borg is involved now to explain and demonstrate this technique. Would it feel more comfortable if the Borg stepped back?
So that we could continue with the technique ourselves? No, I can't say that would feel more comfortable for me. I joined this discussion mainly because I was feeling particularly in charity with you for your remark about cyber relationships. While I didn't particularly understand what you were doing here, I wanted to give you the gift, so to speak, of engaging on a topic that appeared to bring you enjoyment.
Without that enjoyment on your part (and feelings of being in charity with you on my part), I don't think I'd feel more comfortable in continuing. I think I'd feel darn awkward.
> > [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
> >
> > 10derheart
>
> What feeling do you think she's expressing? Do you share that feeling? Can you communicate that to her?
>
> BobI think 10der and I may possibly again be on the same wavelength. I don't call someone my sister on a single isolated point of being on the same page, no matter how delightful the experience might be. I suspect that since 10der expressed the feeling that an unmoderated Babble felt unsafe to her, as it feels unsafe to me, she was trying to see if she could find a meeting place between learning to use Babble in a way that feels safer, and Babble perhaps being moderated in a way that feels safer.
Not that I want to speak for 10der. We may not be on the same wavelength at all on this.
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2013, at 9:55:27
In reply to Re: anybody else?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2013, at 20:57:35
I just found this and wondered why it's on social and not on administration or even psychology. Why social? The topic seems to have evolved into babble becoming a theraphy based board. Why? Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 16, 2013, at 11:33:36
In reply to Re: anybody else? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2013, at 9:55:27
Not Psychology!!!!
Posted by 10derheart on February 16, 2013, at 12:21:53
In reply to Re: anybody else?, posted by Dinah on February 16, 2013, at 11:33:36
No, please don't think of putting it there.
Posted by 10derheart on February 16, 2013, at 18:34:01
In reply to Re: trial run, posted by Dr. Bob on February 15, 2013, at 14:37:18
>>The Borg is involved now to explain and demonstrate this technique. Would it feel more comfortable if the Borg stepped back?
You appear to be casting *yourself* as the Borg. Did you think that's what I said or meant? I didn't. I used a simile comparing you (or anyone) asking about "being joined with me" to what that fictional collective might say if they cared (doubtful) whether a new creature could tell or detect it was now joined to the rest of the collective. It was comparing the tone and connotation of *the question* asking Dinah about feeling joined, not really the entity asking the question.
I don't see you as the Borg. I can't think of redeeming qualities of the Borg, and you have many of those. If the Borg was explaining or demonstrating a technique (again, doubtful) I wouldn't even care at all. Although I won't lose sleep pondering this thread, I care....at least to the extent it matters enough to you to write about it, and, because I believe your feelings here are as valid as anyone else's.
Whether or not we are on the same page, I am willing to peruse your page to see what you see in it....usually.
Anyway...still artificial and awkward no matter whether you step forward, back or sideways. Inherent in what you are doing, especially with some of us who have been in long term therapy and/or voraciously read about it. I have an involuntary Technique-o-Meter that operates with a bit of a cynical outlook in those times it seems a person is doing something *to* me or (at the risk of making Dinah blush again) trying something *on me.* Not to mention, which I think may be what Phillipa was alluding to, it gives a conversation here more that a whiff of group therapy which is disconcerting coming from you, for obvious reasons.
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2013, at 20:57:08
In reply to Re: who is/are the Borg » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on February 16, 2013, at 18:34:01
Hit the nail on the head I do. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2013, at 3:22:45
In reply to Re: who is/are the Borg » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on February 16, 2013, at 18:34:01
> > > [trial run to see if any part of PB is safe for me]
> > >
> > > 10derheart
> >
> > What feeling do you think she's expressing? Do you share that feeling? Can you communicate that to her?
> >
> > Bob
>
> I think 10der and I may possibly again be on the same wavelength. I don't call someone my sister on a single isolated point of being on the same page, no matter how delightful the experience might be. I suspect that since 10der expressed the feeling that an unmoderated Babble felt unsafe to her, as it feels unsafe to me, she was trying to see if she could find a meeting place between learning to use Babble in a way that feels safer, and Babble perhaps being moderated in a way that feels safer.
>
> Not that I want to speak for 10der. We may not be on the same wavelength at all on this.
>
> Dinah> Anyway...still artificial and awkward no matter whether you step forward, back or sideways. Inherent in what you are doing, especially with some of us who have been in long term therapy and/or voraciously read about it. I have an involuntary Technique-o-Meter that operates with a bit of a cynical outlook in those times it seems a person is doing something *to* me or (at the risk of making Dinah blush again) trying something *on me.* Not to mention, which I think may be what Phillipa was alluding to, it gives a conversation here more that a whiff of group therapy which is disconcerting coming from you, for obvious reasons.
>
> 10derheartAre you willing to give this a try now despite it feeling artificial and awkward and disconcerting? If so, do you feel Dinah heard what you were expressing? If so, do you feel she shared that feeling?
Bob
PS: To try to focus this thread, I tried again to join Dinah's wavelength here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20130101/msgs/1038301.html
and posted another reply here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20130101/msgs/1038303.html
Posted by 10derheart on February 18, 2013, at 15:56:55
In reply to Re: trial run, posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2013, at 3:22:45
>>Are you willing to give this a try now despite it feeling artificial and awkward and disconcerting?
No, I don't think so. I don't really have the time. Also, I only posted at all because when I see Dinah's name I figure I'll be safe, or a lot safer than just randomly posting elsewhere where she may never look or post. Which isn't really rational as she cannot stop the reoccurrence of the things that make me recoil from PB. She could only potentially assist after the fact, and if I stay away, that will never even come up.
I don't care for forced unnatural talk when natural expression is possible and well....comes naturally. It's just so not me to construct language the way you are demonstrating.
I guess this won't sound very nice, and I do not mean to be snarky, but I really do need to remember to lower my expectations and keep them low when it comes to moderation here. Realistically, my need when it comes to certain boundaries at PB does not match up with what you are willing to do as its administrator, so that's that. It apparently won't be going back to an atmosphere that worked for me, and that's okay. I am one person {shrug}.
Good luck with whatever it is you are attemping, Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2013, at 20:04:53
In reply to Re: trial run-over » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on February 18, 2013, at 15:56:55
> No, I don't think so. I don't really have the time. Also, I only posted at all because when I see Dinah's name I figure I'll be safe, or a lot safer than just randomly posting elsewhere where she may never look or post. Which isn't really rational as she cannot stop the reoccurrence of the things that make me recoil from PB. She could only potentially assist after the fact, and if I stay away, that will never even come up.
You know, it's not really irrational. We are unlikely to disagree on matters of safety or civility. At the risk of agreeing with Dr. Bob, it is better to face something together than to face it alone.
You and I can't change anything about the actual safety of Babble. Only Bob can do that. But it's a lot less scary to be out in a scary place with company. And not only me. You aren't alone here even if I'm not around.
I don't like an unmoderated Babble any more than you do. One reason to humor Dr. Bob, I suppose.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2013, at 0:44:39
In reply to Re: trial run-over » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2013, at 20:04:53
> At the risk of agreeing with Dr. Bob, it is better to face something together than to face it alone.
>
> You and I can't change anything about the actual safety of Babble. Only Bob can do that. But it's a lot less scary to be out in a scary place with company. And not only me. You aren't alone here even if I'm not around.
>
> I don't like an unmoderated Babble any more than you do. One reason to humor Dr. Bob, I suppose.Let's try to continue from here. What do you think is a feeling Dinah's expressing? Do you share that feeling? Can you communicate that to her?
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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