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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 15:05:04
In reply to Re: Paranoid Delusions » rjlockhart98, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 13:54:59
When my mother was suffering agitated depression she said things that appeared delusional. It took me a while to realise that what she was saying wasn't delusional really. She might say 'I'm ruined, there's no hot water, no power, the banks won't give me any money, how will we eat?' The trigger (to use a familiar word) might have been that she couldn't work out which was the hot tap and which was the cold tap, had a cold shower, and drew her conclusions. But unlike your aunt there wasn't anything remotely enjoyable for her in it. I had long conversations with her about the bank. She'd say 'But we have no money' and I'd say 'If the bank won't give you your money you should change banks, let's see, we'll go in and ask for some', and she'd say 'But they won't give you any'. I came to the conclusion that such conversations were worse than useless, and that I should just absorb and feel, as a filial duty, her sense of despair. And I think that did help, over time.
Declan
Posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 15:48:23
In reply to Paranoid Delusions, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 9:15:35
If someone is delusional then they are supposed to have lost their ability to 'reality test' which means that they are certain that their delusion is true and they aren't so very amenable to evidence to the contrary.
To recognise that their belief is delusional (false, unfounded) would mean that... They wouldn't be delusional. Rather they would be having an obsessional idea or something like that.
But the road to conviction may be slow... So they might start thinking thoughts along those lines and the sense of conviction may come about slowly. I guess the trouble with paranoid deluisons is that people are typically untrusting of others so they aren't so likely to be sharing their thoughts rather just thinking through them themselves and becoming convinced by them.
One of my flatmates used to get delusional at times. She couldn't tell that that was what was happening to her but other people started to figure out some of the signs. It sounds like your aunt has epidodes of deluison that are induced by depression. So when her depression gets worse I guess other people know to be on the lookout for her becomming delusional.
Knowing that an idea is false / ungrounded means that someone has 'good insight'. That is supposed to lost in delusion (by definition) and it is this loss of ability to reality test that is supposed to differentiate psychotic phenomena (deluisons and hallucinations) from neurotic phenomena (obsessional ideas etc).
To the best of my knowledge this is the accepted line on deluison. But I could be a bit off...
Posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 15:50:14
In reply to Another member of the family » Glydin, posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 15:05:04
I remember being told when working with "confused" persons to not reenforce their delusions. Always attempting keep someone oriented to time, place, and person. Well, while this is a grand plan, I found when working with the elderly -sometimes, it was just better to let them be living in 1940. It made for a more enjoyable time for myself and the patient. But, I did see and made a differencation in confusion and delusions -perhaps I shouldn't have but I did.
Posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 15:53:17
In reply to Re: Paranoid Delusions » Glydin, posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 15:48:23
Makes sense to me.... Thanks. It's a difficult concept for me to grasp and I've wondered about it for quite a while.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 16:29:48
In reply to Re: Another member of the family » Declan, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 15:50:14
> I remember being told when working with "confused" persons to not reenforce their delusions. Always attempting keep someone oriented to time, place, and person. Well, while this is a grand plan, I found when working with the elderly -sometimes, it was just better to let them be living in 1940. It made for a more enjoyable time for myself and the patient. But, I did see and made a differencation in confusion and delusions -perhaps I shouldn't have but I did.
I have heard someone else say the same thing on the boards. I think it was Phillipa or it may have been Toph. In the case of dementia the 'delusions' (more 'disorientations' to place time etc) seem relatively harmless. It is hard work to keep trying to reorient them and it may well be something that is painful to them too. Where is the harm in it if they want to believe its 1940?
I don't see a great problem either...
Indulging someone with paranoid delusions may well be different however. Because... In extreme cases people can act out on their delusions in ways that harm themselves or others. And so in those cases it is probably wise not to indulge them...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 16:33:34
In reply to Re: Another member of the family, posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 16:29:48
I remember being on the ward once and one of the patients kept wanting to talk to me about how she was pregnant and was going to have a baby.
I wasn't sure whether it was true or whether it was part of her delusion.
I actually asked one of the nurses (fairly unthinkingly) and was of course told that confidentiality prohibited my being told the answer to that (of course - doh!)
I was just trying to figure whether there would be more harm in indulging her deluison or in being a little dismissive of her real pregnancy by guiding her around to other topics.
I pointed that out and the nurse just shrugged and walked away.
I chose to do the latter...
Oh well.
I'm just a patient...
Posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 17:27:10
In reply to Re: Another member of the family, posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 16:29:48
Where is the harm in it if they want to believe its 1940?
>
> I don't see a great problem either...
~~~That was actually a great exchange I had with a lady about 90 years old. We were on a train and she was going to see a "fellow". We discussed the fellow and things about the time. It was like memory therapy for her and an education for me. Sometimes, it's the quality of interactions that matters and not the specifics - that idea can get lost. That experience was many years ago for me, but I remember it well.Boy, I've gotten off track and doing my own memory therapy today!!
Posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 18:01:37
In reply to Re: Another member of the family » alexandra_k, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 17:27:10
> Sometimes, it's the quality of interactions that matters and not the specifics - that idea can get lost.
Yes. I agree.
Posted by Phillipa on October 21, 2005, at 20:36:19
In reply to Re: Another member of the family » Glydin, posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 18:01:37
Alex, what a memory you've got. It was me. And a lot of times it is kinder to go along with the elderly's delusions. Even someone who is highly manic or schizophrenic is easier to control and get you to trust them if you go along with them. The best one was the old lady who kept saying she was giving birth. She kept a doll on her bed and thought it was a real baby. And that made her happy. Another one is someone who thinks there are bugs crawling on the floor or a dog in their room. Just shoo them out and they are happy too. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 21:32:59
In reply to Re: Another member of the family, posted by Phillipa on October 21, 2005, at 20:36:19
I wrote above:
"Her delusions were usually based on being stalked and harassed by a secret government agency. Government conspiracy seems to me to be big in delusional thinking."
I do see that as a delusional theme (so to speak) at times. Anybody know the rationale for this? Something to do with authority or "Big Brother" complex? It's perplexing that it seems to be "common".
Posted by Phillipa on October 21, 2005, at 21:47:32
In reply to uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 21:32:59
Another delusion is the TV is talking to you or that you're some religious person. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 23:44:44
In reply to uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 21:32:59
If we exempt those people who've been poisoned with LSD by the CIA and stuff, here's my 2 bob's worth. If you are at the centre of this thingo, say that the central committees of the USSR and PRC (showing my age here) have devices in your head to read your thoughts, then you are at the centre of a titanic struggle on which the fate of the world depends etc etc. (I knew someone who thought just that. Very lucid he was.) That seems to be a common thread.
Declan
Posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 1:23:49
In reply to uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 21, 2005, at 21:32:59
I think that most delusions are around paranoid themes.
I'm not sure why...
Something to do with fear?
Dunno.
Posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 6:13:25
In reply to Re: uh, just a question- » Glydin, posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 1:23:49
I do find the themes and commonality strangely intriguing. I feel badly for those that struggle with this problem, but I’m fascinated.
I do think there must be something “deep” involved. A strange fact I learned a long time ago had to do with digitalis – the heart med. It’s made from foxglove and foxglove is pollinated by monarch butterflies. If one is overdosed on dig – one can visually hallucinate and see – monarch butterflies. It was as if something very deep was triggered.
I do think there are any number of factors that could go into the subject content of delusions. Perhaps it is a lot about fear, lack of control, resentment of something considered to be controlling or oppressing, even “illusions of grandeur” as one is pretty important if “they” are trying to control you or guide you.
I don’t really know either, but it’s interesting to me.
Posted by Declan on October 22, 2005, at 13:22:21
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 6:13:25
Do people who hear voices ever hear these voices saying nice things to them?
I don't think I've ever heard of it.
Declan
Posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 14:55:10
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Declan on October 22, 2005, at 13:22:21
That's something for me to ponder also - wonder why? If I were delusional, I would at least like it to be a good experience.
Posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2005, at 17:13:16
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 14:55:10
The people I've met that are hearing voices say they are usually telling them to hurt themself or someone else. Or one guy said spirtual warfare was what was going on in his brain. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 17:57:35
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 6:13:25
> A strange fact I learned a long time ago had to do with digitalis – the heart med. It’s made from foxglove and foxglove is pollinated by monarch butterflies. If one is overdosed on dig – one can visually hallucinate and see – monarch butterflies.
Wow. That is very interesting indeed. You wouldn't happen to have a link to anything on that - would you?
> I do think there are any number of factors that could go into the subject content of delusions. Perhaps it is a lot about fear, lack of control, resentment of something considered to be controlling or oppressing,Yeah. There are a lot of theories out there...
I have heard some stuff... Around how there may be a mechanism in the brain that 'tells' us when people are watching us or are aware of us or whatever. This would make evolutionary sense for us to be aware of in the sense of monitoring for threat etc. If something is going wrong with that mechanism then it might be the case that the person has the experience of being watched. They might scan the environment for the source of that experience and may reach some funny conclusions in order to make sense of the experience.
Just a thought...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 18:00:32
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Declan on October 22, 2005, at 13:22:21
> Do people who hear voices ever hear these voices saying nice things to them?
> I don't think I've ever heard of it.I think some people do get this. They might hear what they interpret to be the voice of god telling them they have a special calling or something like that. This... Might count as a 'nice thing' to say???!
I hear voices. They can be nice sometimes.
But usually... Voices seem to be experienced as distressing... Interesting to consider how much this is because of something intrinsic to the experience and to consider how much that might arise from the experience being considered to be socially unacceptable.
Lots of people have talked about hearing what they interpret to be the voice of god. Some people don't want that experience to stop - they consider they are blessed with a gift.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 18:01:59
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 14:55:10
> That's something for me to ponder also - wonder why? If I were delusional, I would at least like it to be a good experience.
LOL! And if I were to have a mental illness... I would much prefer to be manic than anything else!
(No disrespect to people with mania. I just think it would be nice to feel good for a change. I know the crash is inevitable but what a damned shame)
:-(
Posted by Declan on October 22, 2005, at 18:03:01
In reply to Re: uh, just a question-, posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2005, at 17:13:16
Which is not so odd, is it PJ. Warfare of one sort or another is everywhere and forever, and it gets inside us and then.....I know someone who said he was under demonic attack.
It might be better for our mental health if what we knew of the world was restricted to our village, as it once was for most.
Declan
Posted by Declan on October 22, 2005, at 18:09:44
In reply to Re: uh, just a question- » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 18:00:32
If I had voices from God telling me things I wouldn't want to stop them. A hotline to the Almighty telling me halfway nice stuff. There's plenty of historical characters who claim to have been told things by God. I wonder how many of them actually heard voices and how many were using this as a metaphor.
Declan
Posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 18:21:59
In reply to Re: uh, just a question- » alexandra_k, posted by Declan on October 22, 2005, at 18:09:44
> If I had voices from God telling me things I wouldn't want to stop them.
Yeah. Though I guess I'd say that the situation is more that... You experience voices and then you form a hypothesis as to the identity of the voice: ie that voice is the voice of god rather than an alien or satan or your long dead uncle or whatever...
>A hotline to the Almighty telling me halfway nice stuff. There's plenty of historical characters who claim to have been told things by God.
Yes. Jesus even ;-)
I wonder how many of them actually heard voices and how many were using this as a metaphor.
Hard to say. Socrates said he had inner voices. Seems he might have meant... conscience. He experienced his conscience as a voice. Back then there wasn't really the concept of ones conscious. Without that way of conceptualising it... I suppose it might be experienced as a voice.
One theory is that voices are thoughts.The best way into understanding this is via the related deluison of alien control (an external agency is controlling my actions). Basically... There is some evidence that the unconscious parts of our brain that initiate a command to the motor production regions of our brain send a copy of that message to a comparator. The comparator compares the message sent to the motor production areas with the response that is generated. It is basically a biofeedback mechanism that sends a message back to the unconscious parts so that next time similar action is required the unconscious parts can adapt their signal so the actual behaviour generated is what was intended.
(sorry if that sounds complicated)
It is supposed to be the mechanism that allows us to improve performance on motor activities (such as hitting a golf ball etc)If the message at the comperator somehow gets altered from the message sent to the motor production areas then it might be plausible to suppose that the person has the experience: 'that action was not initiated by me!' From there it is a little bit of a jump to the hypothesis that an external agency generated the action... From there it is a little bit of a jump again to the hypothesis that a specific external agency generated the action (ie god).
It has been suggested... That there may be a similar mechanism that results in ones thoughts being tagged as self initiated. If there is a problem with the comparator (like in the last case) then that might result in the experience of thought insertion (ie that there are thoughts in ones mind that are not initiated by oneself)
Lots of work to be done...
;-)
Posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 20:03:32
In reply to Re: uh, just a question- » Glydin, posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 17:57:35
> Wow. That is very interesting indeed. You wouldn't happen to have a link to anything on that - would you?~~~ It was a journal article I can no longer access due to letting my subscription lapse..... but it was very interesting. I couldn't find anything to that effect just doing a Google on it but I SWEAR it wasn't a delusion of mine.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 22, 2005, at 22:09:01
In reply to Cheap me » alexandra_k, posted by Glydin on October 22, 2005, at 20:03:32
> ~~~ It was a journal article I can no longer access due to letting my subscription lapse.....
Would you happen to have a reference for the article?
(I have subscription access to a fair few via university subscription or could put in an interloan request)
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