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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Toph on December 28, 2004, at 11:33:56
In reply to Re: Does evil exist?, posted by Toph on December 27, 2004, at 6:44:26
When I get manicy, I really start talking out my butt. I don't recognize much of what I said, but I must have thought it was important at the time.
Posted by Angel Girl on December 28, 2004, at 18:49:23
In reply to Does evil exist?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 10:52:16
Larry
I do believe that evil exists and that God created everything BUT God did not create evil. God gave man 'free will' and with that free will MAN CREATED EVIL.
God created a peaceful, loving and perfect world. It was MAN who screwed it up using his/her free will that God gave him.
AG
Posted by henrietta on December 28, 2004, at 19:15:20
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » Larry Hoover, posted by Angel Girl on December 28, 2004, at 18:49:23
But then there's that Abraham slash Isaac story. (Do I have the names right?)
I would call it evil to demand that a father murder his child to please some voice,to demonstrate loyalty to some force or power beyond the daily loves and loyalties and natural human affinities and responsibilities... yes, I know the character called g*d did not in the end demand this sacrifice, but by then the deep damage had been done. The betrayal had been accomplished. This, to me, is evil, and I've never been able to understand how anyone could respect a g*d who behaved in this narcissistic, abusive manner. Maybe someone could explain it to me? I'd be grateful for an explanation.
Posted by Angel Girl on December 28, 2004, at 19:49:39
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » Angel Girl, posted by henrietta on December 28, 2004, at 19:15:20
I hesitated to put in my 2 cents worth before because of my extreme lack of bible knowledge and I should've resisted I guess because I'm not familiar of the Bible story of which you speak. Maybe someone else knows?
AG
Posted by just plain jane on December 29, 2004, at 17:05:52
In reply to Does evil exist?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 10:52:16
there is an equal and opposite reaction.
If good exists, so does evil.
While working as a volunteer in the school library some years back, I had some HS kids come sit at the table where I was working. These three lads were the "bad" kids in their pretty bad class.
One of them, the rather intelligent one, said to me, "I don't believe in God. I believe in the devil."
Now, I knew these kids, and I knew they knew I was a Sunday School teacher at the time. They were just trying to "shock" me. (Hilarious, given my lurid past.)
I replied, "Without God, there is no reason for the devil."
Still my take on the subject.
just plain won't argue jane
Posted by Angel Girl on December 29, 2004, at 17:51:20
In reply to for every action, posted by just plain jane on December 29, 2004, at 17:05:52
> there is an equal and opposite reaction.
>
> If good exists, so does evil.
>
> While working as a volunteer in the school library some years back, I had some HS kids come sit at the table where I was working. These three lads were the "bad" kids in their pretty bad class.
>
> One of them, the rather intelligent one, said to me, "I don't believe in God. I believe in the devil."
>
> Now, I knew these kids, and I knew they knew I was a Sunday School teacher at the time. They were just trying to "shock" me. (Hilarious, given my lurid past.)
>
> I replied, "Without God, there is no reason for the devil."
>
> Still my take on the subject.
>
> just plain won't argue jane
>
jpjI wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
So, you didn't say how those kids responded to your answer???
AG
Posted by Dave001 on December 29, 2004, at 20:56:59
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » verne, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 21:17:52
> Here are a selection of Einstein quotations:
>
> I cannot believe that God plays dice with the cosmos.I once read a witty retort to that quote: "God does play dice with the universe. But they're loaded dice..." It was quoted in James Gleick's "Chaos," but originated from Joseph Ford.
Dave
Posted by Dave001 on December 31, 2004, at 18:18:03
In reply to Re: for every action » just plain jane, posted by Angel Girl on December 29, 2004, at 17:51:20
> I wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also
Although your reply was directed toward someone else, I thought I'd chime in here and point out that it is at least inconsistent to believe in a "the devil," without believing in "God."
> doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a
Well, to stimulate his critical thinking process, ask him about his thoughts on the origin of the devil. Granted, I don't know your son, but since he said he believes man evolved from apes, you might consider that he was being facetious when he expressed a belief in a devil.
> knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
>Oh God (no pun intended), Nietzsche would have a field day here. I love a good debate on religion, but this isn't the place for it. As an atheist, I'd no doubt say something resulting in me being banned, albeit unintentionally. We heretics always have a way of getting burned (pun intended). ;-)
Posted by Angel Girl on December 31, 2004, at 22:20:28
In reply to Re: for every action, posted by Dave001 on December 31, 2004, at 18:18:03
> > I wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also
>
> Although your reply was directed toward someone else, I thought I'd chime in here and point out that it is at least inconsistent to believe in a "the devil," without believing in "God."
>
> > doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a
>
> Well, to stimulate his critical thinking process, ask him about his thoughts on the origin of the devil. Granted, I don't know your son, but since he said he believes man evolved from apes, you might consider that he was being facetious when he expressed a belief in a devil.
>
> > knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
> >
>
> Oh God (no pun intended), Nietzsche would have a field day here. I love a good debate on religion, but this isn't the place for it. As an atheist, I'd no doubt say something resulting in me being banned, albeit unintentionally. We heretics always have a way of getting burned (pun intended). ;-)
DaveYour comments are VERY welcome, especially since I understand you to say you are an athiest because I do not understand exactly what an athiest believes.
It may be inconsistent but he claims to believe in Satan but not God. Oh he was not being facetious, he definitely believes in Satan. We haven't had any discussions lately, so I can not remember what he believes Satan's origin is.
I hope I have not offended you or anyone here who claims to be an athiest or a Satan worshipper.
Unfortunately, my son is a real trigger for me right now and this is one discussion that I'd be smart to stay out of right now, although I am tempted to ask him the questions you proposed.
Thanks for your input and again, I hope that I did not offend.
AG
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 22:46:51
In reply to Re: Does evil exist?, posted by Toph on December 28, 2004, at 11:33:56
> When I get manicy, I really start talking out my butt. I don't recognize much of what I said, but I must have thought it was important at the time.
When I get geeky, I know that evil exists. One manifestation is Kazaa, the music download site. My kids' computer gets so full of malware that it actually bogs down to nothing. It won't even load the desktop, sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I've taken Gain.gator off of it, and how many corrupted files I find. Hundreds. I'm going to have to put Netnanny or something on that machine, before it dies from the malware burden.
Lar
Posted by just plain jane on January 1, 2005, at 0:11:25
In reply to Re: for every action » just plain jane, posted by Angel Girl on December 29, 2004, at 17:51:20
They had no reply for several minutes.
They looked at each other, at me, back to one another.
Then the smart one (the "leader", of course) nodded a few times, got a little smirk on his face, and agreed.
They also were giving me a hard time about driving a crappy car, obviously under the impression that I could afford much better. I explained that I was a volunteer.
"What's a volunteer?" I was asked, and explained how I worked there but got no pay.
"Why would you do that?" they wanted to know, skepticism plain on their faces.
It was such an intensely happy moment for me to tell them, "I do it because you are here to talk to me. Because no one could pay me enough to do what I do with you kids every day. Because being here for all you kids is the best pay I could ask for. Because I DO believe in God and this is where He wants me to be."
Being in such a small community I have had the pleasure of seeing them all grow up to be decent young men.
I do not engage in debate on religion, spirituality, beliefs... these things are personally held, which makes them, in my opinion, nondebatable.
jpj
Posted by Toph on January 1, 2005, at 15:26:00
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? Aye! Malware! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 22:46:51
Are you suggesting that my manic rant of the other day was the work of the devil? Frankly, I will confess that I have made some pretty bad choices in my life, taking acid, infidelity and other deceptions, but I take full responsibility for them. If anything bothers me, it's trying to understand why I deserve my illlness. In an attempt to find meaning, I tell myself that I'm a better person somehow because of it. I'm still waiting for the genetic or chemical Malbrain fix that will liberate me from the chains of BP disorder.
Thanks for being considerate of alternative viewpoints to your post.
-Toph
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2005, at 17:58:39
In reply to Re: Aye! Malware! » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on January 1, 2005, at 15:26:00
> Are you suggesting that my manic rant of the other day was the work of the devil?
If, and only if, you wrote some of the virus junk that was on my kids' computer.
Lar
Posted by Toph on January 2, 2005, at 7:41:28
In reply to Re: Aye! Malware! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2005, at 17:58:39
LOL. Anyone smart enough (definitely not me) to screw up other people's computers who can't think of a more constructive way to apply their intellectual gift must be evil, Lar.
-Toph
Posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 8:44:09
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? Aye! Malware! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 22:46:51
>
> When I get geeky, I know that evil exists. One manifestation is Kazaa, the music download site. My kids' computer gets so full of malware that it actually bogs down to nothing. It won't even load the desktop, sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I've taken Gain.gator off of it, and how many corrupted files I find. Hundreds. I'm going to have to put Netnanny or something on that machine, before it dies from the malware burden.
>
> Lar
>
>Larry, when I run my SpyBot software on the bottom I can read the files that it is scanning for bad stuff. I see gain.Gator files, but it skips right over them. If Gator is adware or malware or spyware or badware or something evil, why doesn't SpyBot or Adaware remove it? Should I do a search for all Gator files and remove them myself? Thanks,
-Toph
Posted by verne on January 3, 2005, at 9:32:39
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 8:44:09
Toph,
I think spybot removed Gator for me. I also have spyware blaster so I never get it in the first place anymore.
Have you checked under spybot's "immunization" section to see whether you're immunized against all known badware?
Spybot has come out with a new version. For some reason I couldn't update the old version so I uninstalled the old did a clean install.
You may be already doing this but periodically you will want to update Spybot too. I haven't been following this thread very closely so I hope I haven't repeated what someone else said.
verne
Posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 10:34:04
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Toph, posted by verne on January 3, 2005, at 9:32:39
Thanks verne. I didn't know that you have to manually update these programs, I thought it was automatic. I downloaded SpywareBlaster from information I found on SpyBot. When I ran a search on SpyBot I still see all sorts of nasty files like gator. Maybe they are disabled. If I search my harddrive for gator nothing comes up. I don't understand these things but I hope I'm protected because my computer seems to be running pretty fast.
-Toph
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 3, 2005, at 11:59:32
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 8:44:09
> >
> > When I get geeky, I know that evil exists. One manifestation is Kazaa, the music download site. My kids' computer gets so full of malware that it actually bogs down to nothing. It won't even load the desktop, sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I've taken Gain.gator off of it, and how many corrupted files I find. Hundreds. I'm going to have to put Netnanny or something on that machine, before it dies from the malware burden.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> >
>
> Larry, when I run my SpyBot software on the bottom I can read the files that it is scanning for bad stuff. I see gain.Gator files, but it skips right over them. If Gator is adware or malware or spyware or badware or something evil, why doesn't SpyBot or Adaware remove it? Should I do a search for all Gator files and remove them myself? Thanks,
> -TophYou can manually remove them, but it is not recommended. Screw up your registry, and your computer won't run.
http://www.iamnotageek.com/printer-180.html
Gain.gator is an ad program that facilitates pop-ups. I've heard that there is a version of this software that is modified to store your passwords in remote-accessible cookie files, but the real issue is that gator is an executable, and you don't want foreign executables running on your box.
I have no idea why Spybot is not detecting/removing gain.gator. As verne has mentioned, there is a new (updates to December 2004) version of Spybot out. The old version is no longer updated (as of March?), and it will miss gain.gator, I think. I highly recommend upgrading, as this version takes a system restore point before it makes any changes. You don't need to uninstall the old version to install the new.
Also, get lavasoft's Ad-aware. It's free, and it will most certainly remove gain.gator and all the associated files and folders.
Ad-aware:
http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/Spybot build 1.3:
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/mirrors/index.htmlLar
Posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 16:19:48
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on January 3, 2005, at 11:59:32
Posted by Dave001 on January 7, 2005, at 16:01:16
In reply to Re: for every action » Dave001, posted by Angel Girl on December 31, 2004, at 22:20:28
> > > I wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also
> >
> > Although your reply was directed toward someone else, I thought I'd chime in here and point out that it is at least inconsistent to believe in a "the devil," without believing in "God."
> >
> > > doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a
> >
> > Well, to stimulate his critical thinking process, ask him about his thoughts on the origin of the devil. Granted, I don't know your son, but since he said he believes man evolved from apes, you might consider that he was being facetious when he expressed a belief in a devil.
> >
> > > knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
> > >
> >
> > Oh God (no pun intended), Nietzsche would have a field day here. I love a good debate on religion, but this isn't the place for it. As an atheist, I'd no doubt say something resulting in me being banned, albeit unintentionally. We heretics always have a way of getting burned (pun intended). ;-)
>
>
> Dave
>
> Your comments are VERY welcome, especially since I understand you to say you are an athiest because I do not understand exactly what an athiest believes.
>An atheist is simply one who does not believe in the existence of a physical deity. All scientists are atheists, whether they admit it or not. Also, many people who claim to believe in God are essentially atheists; that is, they use the term metaphorically, but do not believe in the existence of a *physical* God. Me, I just include God in the same category as Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny, etc.
The following quote on religion is from my favorite stand-up comedian, George Carlin:
"Religion easily—has the best bullsh*t story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man...living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money."
Tell me that isn't funny! :-)
> It may be inconsistent but he claims to believe in Satan but not God. Oh he was not being facetious, he definitely believes in Satan. We haven't had any discussions lately, so I can not remember what he believes Satan's origin is.
>
> I hope I have not offended you or anyone here who claims to be an athiest or a Satan worshipper.
>The way in which you worded that sentence makes me think you may be confused about the definition of an atheist. An atheist is _NOT_ a Satan worshipper. On the contrary, being an atheist precludes the belief in Satan or any other supernatural entities.
> Unfortunately, my son is a real trigger for me right now and this is one discussion that I'd be smart to stay out of right now, although I am tempted to ask him the questions you proposed.
>
> Thanks for your input and again, I hope that I did not offend.Please don't be concerned about offending me. I am not easily offended, and I certainly found no part of your message ill-spirited. Quite the opposite.
Dave
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 7, 2005, at 22:35:39
In reply to Re: for every action, posted by Dave001 on January 7, 2005, at 16:01:16
> An atheist is simply one who does not believe in the existence of a physical deity. All scientists are atheists, whether they admit it or not.
I don't know that such absolute statements are a good idea. I think I saw a poll of Ph.D. scientists in the U.S., and a substantial number (30 or 40%, I don't clearly recall) were committed to their Christian faith, notwithstanding the discrepancies with their science work.
Einstein was a pantheist. I would have to say I am, too.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with your definition for atheism.
Lar
Posted by bimini on January 8, 2005, at 13:39:21
In reply to Re: for every action » Dave001, posted by Larry Hoover on January 7, 2005, at 22:35:39
I was brought up by an atheist mother and buddhist father. My mother would not allow any religious teachings, (there are mandatory religious classes in the country I grew up), she discouraged christian church attendance with friends' families which meant no Saturday sleepovers.
Cathedral, Basilica and Dome visits throughout my childhood were strictly to marvel at the architectural grandeur and exploitation of guilt. My father taught me to question everything and everybody, to always seek the truth and recognize disguises.
I view religion as an impediment to spiritual growth. Nietzsche was right.
bimini
Posted by borderliner on January 8, 2005, at 23:39:48
In reply to Re: Atheism, posted by bimini on January 8, 2005, at 13:39:21
Right you are. I feel religion places a "boundary" on someones spiritual growth. I feel spiritual growth is about reaching higher states and evolving physically/mentally/emotionally. Its truth u see it all day every day people striving to push themselves further in their careers, people forming relationships(no matter what type). Then again theres the people who struggle which is what i am atm.
Christianity i was forced into catholic schools my whole life, i was born with lil interest for religion. I attended church on sundays, hated it. Boring old bald guy rambling on... i went for the kids care afterwards while the parents met. As soon as going to church became only an 'option' and not a 'necessity' i chose NOT to attend at all. But still i was trapped in religion at school. masses every friday to celebrate some dude who once had a spiritual life but took it to far and let others know he was connected with out source. As i know he got nailed to a cross for this exact reason.theres been multipal reports in history of members of different religions being connected to god(or as i call it the source) i dont feel religion is necessary to reach hightened awareness. Hightened awareness can be reached by anyone. it just takes the knowledge.
Borderliner (damn i took up some space)
Posted by alexandra_k on January 10, 2005, at 0:19:29
In reply to Re: Atheism » bimini, posted by borderliner on January 8, 2005, at 23:39:48
I find that comtemplating such things as evolutionary theory and the big bang allow (even beg for) something spiritual. I get that mystical feeling in contemplating stuff like that and simply have no need / use for the concept of omnigod.
I think that some people manage to 'transcend' religion somehow to get to spirituality. That is the point IMO but a lot of people get stuck in the religion. There are more ways there aside from religion and there are a lot of things that can blind us to it including religion. Just my opinion...
Posted by bimini on January 11, 2005, at 9:02:19
In reply to Re: Atheism » bimini, posted by borderliner on January 8, 2005, at 23:39:48
Taking up space, expanding into all directions, colliding, interacting, interfering...it's all good.
What do we think we know, how do we know it? The truth is not knowable. Disagreeing is a waste. Taking up space is what matters for the now.
bimini
This is the end of the thread.
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