![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 37 to 61 of 73. Go back in thread:
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 18:59:23
In reply to i know for me.., posted by NikkiT2 on April 27, 2004, at 15:57:53
I am sorry you suffer from that and can totally understand...I speak in genral terms as well as a few established posters who I am glad you see also have cliques,,I would rather one admit to the cliques than deny they exist it makes me feel put down for my perception. thxs :)
> Its all part of my social phobia.. its so much easier for me to just talk to those I know, than put myself wide open and post to someone I don't know. But then, I very rarely post here anymore.. when I do it tends ot be on PB2000, where I know the guys very well - but even then, I am so often unable to find words, I simply don't post.
>
> I guess I'm an oldie wimp.. just because I've been here 5 years or so, doesn't mean I'm still not terrified to jump in into conversations etc. And yes, I agree there *are* cliques, and their posts tend to go way over my head... but in my opinion, they tend to be the "medium" timers as I think of them.
>
> So, I don't post to be mean.. I don't post simply as I'm scared or feeling unsafe!
>
> Nikki
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:02:09
In reply to Re: Invisibility » Fallen4MyT, posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 14:26:01
GG, I tend to doubt it because I do not recall your exact reply or post right now...I tend to read a few posts then reply ..or go back and do one by one to direct people
> Fallen4myT,
> I'm wondering, since my post was pretty much describing my own habits, if your reply is directed to me?
>
> gg
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:06:02
In reply to Re: underthecs, Fallen4MyT, lonelygirl, and spoc, posted by All Done on April 27, 2004, at 1:54:50
All Done I am not talking about replies to all posts or even MY posts...just a trend I am seeing in here where some people can post...and get zero reply to a new thread and someone else can post the same kind of post and get quarenteed at least a reply by 7-10 regular posters..same thread topic just different author
> To all,
>
> I'm kind of at a loss here. It makes me sad to know that you feel this way and I want to post to try to make you all feel less invisible, but I'm not exactly sure how to go about it. Part of me feels like I should apologize if I was one of the offenders (if so, I am truly sorry). The other part of me wants to give reasons why I don't always post (time is my major issue and when I do have time, I will admit, sometimes I post to those I've had previous interactions with first).
>
> I realize there are plenty of reasons you feel this way but I also realize there are plenty of reasons you shouldn't feel this way (Dinah did a pretty good job with the latter). So, the best advice I can give is probably the hardest. Just keep jumping in where you can and eventually, I bet it won't feel the same anymore. I have found Babble to be a wonderful place to interact and make friends. Ironically, though, sometimes it is necessary to have thick skin while waiting for replies.
>
> I hope you all know we all appreciate your presence here and no one wants you to feel like an outsider.
>
> Take care,
> All Done
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:18:41
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 10:35:39
A thought here..IF one has a strong reaction to this whole topic maybe there is a good reason for it? A good thought to ponder. I really do not think people would post on this so often if it was ALL IN "THEIR" heads...and thats what I myself feel when I see some people have such a strong reaction to this topic as if it is taboo to speak of it...I still feel sorry for the others who post and get no reply. Maybe I am a softy....
Also IF SAY..someone said to me on this topic..IS IT ME? I AM SORRY IF SO...I would be walking into a gauntlet to reply and get the ole civility deal...ALL *I* personally hope to see out of this is much consideration to all NEW AND OLD. Its really not a bad issue to think about...and frankly I feel at a loss to people who are posting reasons and apologies if its them..the intent is not for that but for some self examination and that MAY in the end help someone down the line get support from YOU when they need it. Thats all
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 19:42:26
In reply to out on a civility limb on cliques and invisable, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:18:41
> I could name about 7 people's screen names (BUT WON'T) who never miss a reply to one another's posts this is what I am talking about...yet they miss or ignore a post STARTED by another poster..thats a clique to my knowledge.
I'm glad Spoc's getting support, and I'm sorry if you've felt neglected here, but I also need to ask you not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused -- which can happen even if names aren't named.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
----
> some people may need to look at themselves a bit more and see if they may be ignoring others just to post to a few close buddies...I cannot see that as good for anyone..
It could be good for them and their buddies. And being obligated to respond to others could be felt as pressure.
> I really do not think people would post on this so often if it was ALL IN "THEIR" heads...and thats what I myself feel when I see some people have such a strong reaction to this topic as if it is taboo to speak of it...
It might not all be in their heads, but reactions to others can be complicated and at least sometimes influenced by their history, etc... And it's not the topic that's taboo, it's the way of speaking of it.
> frankly I feel at a loss to people who are posting reasons and apologies if its them..the intent is not for that but for some self examination
Maybe people are feeling accused, self-examining, and thinking it might be them?
Bob
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
In reply to Re: Invisibility » Fallen4MyT, posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 14:26:01
I also wanted to make sure people know that not as much attention to all posters was being suggested as some may have gathered. And much of the point is “posting around” people -– not posting, leaving, and forgetting; but staying on a thread and going around them during it. And if it’s someone you haven’t ‘spoken’ to yet, and they are popping up (maybe in several places), and perhaps at times trying to talk to you in particular (they may not even know the ins and outs of that), it’s just nice to try to be aware of it. And I’d think people would want to be, so it didn’t seem like a bad idea to point it out.
I could see where going beyond that could feel at times like "mercy posting" that some may not always be up to (and I do not mean that sarcastically). And it's of course discretionary (but, it *is* the way to get to know different people; and as much as we may feel we've already found them all, realistically we know there are other great ones for us out there). Either way, it would be courteous to always watch out for the "go-around" mentioned above.
It wasn't implied that people have a duty to remember every place all over the entire board they have posted, so they can check back; nor that they should respond to every single person who ever posts to them, especially if they know each other. And infrequent posters should of course never be expected to change and post more or to more people. No one meant it that way. I don’t have expectations on that level here or in real life, and it’s feeling rather foreign at this point, and wasn't supposed to be all about me in particular at all.
It was supposed to be only about a simple principle of human nature and a suggestion that as part of the largely poster-perpetuated “value added” community here, people may want to be cognizant of this kind of thing. It would be too bad if everything gets attributed exclusively to things like over-sensitivity, overreaction, or attachment to one's own posts. Those as well as everything else mentioned so far are true at times, but there are other aspects, and it could have just been enlightening and useful to look at. But it may be too complicated for many reasons, from people not being able to see it if it is there, to those in agreement being hesitant that discussing it could exacerbate things.
I have more thoughts on it all, but am not sure how much more I should or will post to this. The subject may fall flat and just upset or irritate, maybe including Dr. Bob. And it's uncomfortable to proceed under that, especially if it just isn’t going to be seen as a possibly constructive thing. But either way, just wanted to clarify that the issue wasn’t expectations of the kind of exceptional attentiveness mentioned above, in case that is what continues to be addressed.
Thanks everyone for posting your comments and interpretations.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:55:34
In reply to Re: please be civil » Fallen4MyT, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 19:42:26
Dr Bob sez:
<Maybe people are feeling accused, self-examining, and thinking it might be them?Bob >
Maybe they are,,,and maybe it is them and then maybe it isn't. So wouldn't saying to me, spoc, underethics and some other posters what we see and feel is not the case or real also uncivil and kind of gaslighting???..I feel ATTACKED when I am told "this is not so" to me on something I and others *see AND FEEL* and post about. I do not see civil flags in those cases. Those posts DO lead me to feel put down. It's fine to say..I do not see it that way ...but......I do not think it is civil as defined to say..That is not the case etc..The subject does seem taboo as no matter how one replies on THIS end it gets tagged
Posted by karen_kay on April 27, 2004, at 19:56:54
In reply to Re: note to all!! i'm rude! » karen_kay, posted by rainyday on April 27, 2004, at 13:52:33
well, (clearing throat) if you must know, i was so concerned about the babble etiquette, that i started a thread on it a while back.... while it doesn't apply to answering posters, it applies to answering those who reply to you (which is even a concern i have, see i have a hard time doing even that.... i don't discriminate...i just have a hard time answering people... and ducky... if you are reading, i know, i have yet to get back to you too :( that's next on my list!!!
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040324/msgs/327868.html
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:57:34
In reply to out on a civility limb on cliques and invisable, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:18:41
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:06:33
In reply to Re: please be civil » Fallen4MyT, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 19:42:26
> I'm glad Spoc's getting support, and I'm sorry if you've felt neglected here...
I am not comfortable with it being assumed that this is all about me. I would like to know where you get that -- you don't usually express conclusions about *why* you think a poster is expressing a certain viewpoint. I wouldn't claim I haven't felt any of this but it's the kind of thing I'd post to regardless, and that's in fact how I ended up here in the first place. I hold positions and make observations everywhere I look and go, even if they are unrelated to me. Maybe this assumption is what triggered the incivility call -- that something which is only beefing for one's own sake may lead to reading things into the tone.
> .. but I also need to ask you not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused -- which can happen even if names aren't named. >
<<<<< Can we watch for uniform application of this now? That neither the board nor poster habits in general may be discussed in negative or "room for improvement" lights? If not an explanation would be helpful.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 20:07:46
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
WELL SAID..I GOT IT AND POSTED CLOSE TO THE SAME NOT AS SMOOTH AND SMART AS YOU
> I also wanted to make sure people know that not as much attention to all posters was being suggested as some may have gathered. And much of the point is “posting around” people -– not posting, leaving, and forgetting; but staying on a thread and going around them during it. And if it’s someone you haven’t ‘spoken’ to yet, and they are popping up (maybe in several places), and perhaps at times trying to talk to you in particular (they may not even know the ins and outs of that), it’s just nice to try to be aware of it. And I’d think people would want to be, so it didn’t seem like a bad idea to point it out.
>
> I could see where going beyond that could feel at times like "mercy posting" that some may not always be up to (and I do not mean that sarcastically). And it's of course discretionary (but, it *is* the way to get to know different people; and as much as we may feel we've already found them all, realistically we know there are other great ones for us out there). Either way, it would be courteous to always watch out for the "go-around" mentioned above.
>
> It wasn't implied that people have a duty to remember every place all over the entire board they have posted, so they can check back; nor that they should respond to every single person who ever posts to them, especially if they know each other. And infrequent posters should of course never be expected to change and post more or to more people. No one meant it that way. I don’t have expectations on that level here or in real life, and it’s feeling rather foreign at this point, and wasn't supposed to be all about me in particular at all.
>
> It was supposed to be only about a simple principle of human nature and a suggestion that as part of the largely poster-perpetuated “value added” community here, people may want to be cognizant of this kind of thing. It would be too bad if everything gets attributed exclusively to things like over-sensitivity, overreaction, or attachment to one's own posts. Those as well as everything else mentioned so far are true at times, but there are other aspects, and it could have just been enlightening and useful to look at. But it may be too complicated for many reasons, from people not being able to see it if it is there, to those in agreement being hesitant that discussing it could exacerbate things.
>
> I have more thoughts on it all, but am not sure how much more I should or will post to this. The subject may fall flat and just upset or irritate, maybe including Dr. Bob. And it's uncomfortable to proceed under that, especially if it just isn’t going to be seen as a possibly constructive thing. But either way, just wanted to clarify that the issue wasn’t expectations of the kind of exceptional attentiveness mentioned above, in case that is what continues to be addressed.
>
> Thanks everyone for posting your comments and interpretations.
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:29:14
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:55:34
> wouldn't saying to me, spoc, underethics and some other posters what we see and feel is not the case or real also uncivil and kind of gaslighting???..
Your feelings are your feelings, it's hard for others to argue with how you feel. Which is one of the advantages of I-statements. Disagreeing with what you see, however, I'd consider to be having a different point of view, which in general I think would be fine.
Sorry, I know it gets complicated here sometimes, knowing what's OK to say how...
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:30:35
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
> much of the point is “posting around” people -– not posting, leaving, and forgetting; but staying on a thread and going around them during it.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused, could you please rephrase that?
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:34:07
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:55:34
<<<< First, remember that things were going smoothly and no one was upset until calls were made that make it seem like people should be upset.
> Maybe they are,,,and maybe it is them and then maybe it isn't. So wouldn't saying to me, spoc, underethics and some other posters what we see and feel is not the case or real also uncivil and kind of gaslighting???..
<<<< And again acknowledging human nature that exists everywhere, we know the people reading all this and agreeing with it would mostly be afraid to get involved if they are uncomfortable already. And that is not an insult to anyone, we shouldn't have to deny natural (and general) laws here.
> I feel ATTACKED when I am told "this is not so" to me on something I and others *see AND FEEL* and post about. I do not see civil flags in those cases. Those posts DO lead me to feel put down. ..The subject does seem taboo as no matter how one replies on THIS end it gets tagged >
<<<<< This kind of subject is easy to take the path of least resistance on, because it *is* uncomfortable to many. Bouts of good-intentioned, unconscious white-washing of any subsequent points could easily lead to a final spin that everyone feels bad for the oversensitive posters who assessed things inaccurately just because their feelings were hurt. Think about it.
The position taken here *is* the minority position, or at least the minority *vocalized* opinion. And by definition those are hard positions to get equal consideration for, but that doesn't mean the points are invalid.
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:55:08
In reply to Re: what we see and feel, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:29:14
> Your feelings are your feelings, it's hard for others to argue with how you feel. Which is one of the advantages of I-statements. Disagreeing with what you see, however, I'd consider to be having a different point of view, which in general I think would be fine. >
<<<<< I think we genuinely want help understanding why if it's flipped the other way, you don't see it as the exact same thing -- different points of view, each saying "I don't see it that way myself, and here's why;" and each indeed arguing from that person's own feelings. Please tell us. The FAQS can't address a nuance like this, why a given disagreement can at times only go in one direction.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 21:02:17
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 20:34:07
And I'm sorry if it falls short. But I can't do better than my best. I have some friends here, that's true. But I'm never averse to making more. And most of my friends here now measure their time in months here, not years.
I also did my best on this thread, offering hints and alternate reasons that responses might not be plentiful. People can take them for whatever they are worth and discard the rest. As they can for all my posts, really.
As I said, I do my best, and I'm just not going to feel guilty if that's not good enough.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 22:02:20
In reply to Re: what we see and feel, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2004, at 20:29:14
Dr Bob as always no disrespect but I named no names and *disagreed the same way others did on the other side of the coin shall we say*..in I STATEMENTS and MY feelings....If say 8 different people posted they feel ignored in here and I agreed ..then someone posted that is not the case to ME that poster is the uncivil one...we ARE feeling ignored and the lack of replies is the proof...and we FEEL that ...Now why would some saying you do not have a valid reason to feel that way be civil but by my saying the same from a different angle its uncivil for me and NOT as it was/is a disagreement? This is odd
> > wouldn't saying to me, spoc, underethics and some other posters what we see and feel is not the case or real also uncivil and kind of gaslighting???..
>
> Your feelings are your feelings, it's hard for others to argue with how you feel. Which is one of the advantages of I-statements. Disagreeing with what you see, however, I'd consider to be having a different point of view, which in general I think would be fine.
>
> Sorry, I know it gets complicated here sometimes, knowing what's OK to say how...
>
> Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 22:42:32
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 19:51:27
To all: This certainly is a bit of a slippery slope as we do each have our own perceptions and feelings about our Babble experience. I know that the risk of a PBC can sometimes make it difficult to post on this, and I understand that there are more thoughts and concerns out there than are posted. Just wanted to offer my email address if anyone wants to talk more about it with me off the board.
gardenergirl88 at yahoo dot com
Please note it sometimes takes me a day or two to respond to emails, but I am interested in hearing more thoughts if anyone wants to.
And I think if one of the hopes for this thread was to stimulate thought about individual posting habits, that certainly seems to have been accomplished. :)
Take care,
gg
Posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 22:45:46
In reply to Well, I do my best., posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 21:02:17
Dinah, please remember that you weren't upset before. We were all communicating fine until a different light was cast. That's an important aspect for people not to overlook.
I lament that the opportunity to continue discussing it nicely, calmly and usefully concluded prematurely. Last night you even requested that it continue, as you wanted to be open to possibilities, but the moment may be lost and both camps probably need to retire. It hasn't been good for you or anyone to end up feeling this way, and I don't think it had to happen. I am sorry to see that it did. But, whatever the realities of the dynamics here are, people may be so aware now that some good is bound to come of it! : )
---
> And I'm sorry if it falls short. But I can't do better than my best. I have some friends here, that's true. But I'm never averse to making more. And most of my friends here now measure their time in months here, not years.
>
> I also did my best on this thread, offering hints and alternate reasons that responses might not be plentiful. People can take them for whatever they are worth and discard the rest. As they can for all my posts, really.
>
> As I said, I do my best, and I'm just not going to feel guilty if that's not good enough.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 23:03:59
In reply to Re: Invisibility, posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 22:42:32
GG, That was exactly my point in joining this thread and some other threads like it when they came up ..Thanks for the email addy I will save it :) and use it when I have time
GG said
<<And I think if one of the hopes for this thread was to stimulate thought about individual posting habits, that certainly seems to have been accomplished. :)Take care,
gg
>>
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 23:08:33
In reply to Re: Well, I do my best. » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 22:45:46
At the risk of sounding like your monkey Spoc I agree again....we were ALL civil IMO and I do not see how those of us who pointed this issue out werent./.I really dont..when I am wrong I admit it but I am not on this one. Some of us see it..some dont..some may now....but the FACT is there have been MANY threads started and NOT by me..I did one way back....on being overlooked so it was to have some merit
> Dinah, please remember that you weren't upset before. We were all communicating fine until a different light was cast. That's an important aspect for people not to overlook.
>
> I lament that the opportunity to continue discussing it nicely, calmly and usefully concluded prematurely. Last night you even requested that it continue, as you wanted to be open to possibilities, but the moment may be lost and both camps probably need to retire. It hasn't been good for you or anyone to end up feeling this way, and I don't think it had to happen. I am sorry to see that it did. But, whatever the realities of the dynamics here are, people may be so aware now that some good is bound to come of it! : )
>
> ---
> > And I'm sorry if it falls short. But I can't do better than my best. I have some friends here, that's true. But I'm never averse to making more. And most of my friends here now measure their time in months here, not years.
> >
> > I also did my best on this thread, offering hints and alternate reasons that responses might not be plentiful. People can take them for whatever they are worth and discard the rest. As they can for all my posts, really.
> >
> > As I said, I do my best, and I'm just not going to feel guilty if that's not good enough.
>
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 23:14:30
In reply to Re: Invisibility » gardenergirl, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 23:03:59
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 28, 2004, at 6:02:00
In reply to Well, I do my best., posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 21:02:17
Another thing for me.. if I post to one person, I feel I should be posting to everyone.. Theres simply not enough words for me, or time, to respond to every singel post.. yet if I reply to one, I get guilt about the other 200... Its a wierd thing *lol* But, I guess, its easier for to reply to none (other than the odd one that leaps out at me) than all..
I admit there are posters I reply to more.. as an example, slinky, as she is pretty local to me geographically, and so I understand alot of her frustrations with the health system here better.. And if someone posts that I've known 4 or 5 years, its obviously easier for me to reply as I understand them better than someone I know nothing about.
Its hard to feel an outsider.. and that is how I feel here these days.. I'm not blaming anyone or anything.. We would all love to be included in everything, and not being included does leave you feeling left out and maybe slightly hurt..
I dunno.. I guess I'm just trying to say that you don't have to be a newbie to feel the way some of you feel!
Nikki x
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2004, at 8:45:27
In reply to Re: Well, I do my best. » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 27, 2004, at 22:45:46
Nothing I posted last night had anything to do with any of his actions.
Posted by spoc on April 28, 2004, at 10:51:55
In reply to Re: To be utterly fair to Dr. Bob » spoc, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2004, at 8:45:27
> Nothing I posted last night had anything to do with any of his actions.
Goodmorning! And ok, I had thought you sounded frustrated by the end of the evening, and wanted to help leave things on an amiable note by considering different dynamics. The kinds of things you had been saying when we were all still in a reflection mode were, Here are some thoughts -- I often assume (nm)s don't require a response; I try not to get attached to my posts because waiting can cause anxiety; interesting to analyze these things, etc. The quick subsequent change in the tone of the thread wasn't soothing for anyone involved, but came from emotions that never would have been felt or expressed spontaneously. Anyway the bottom line is that I hope to leave the air all clear with us. : )
If at some point (not even necessarily now because my brain is crispy over all this too!) you could help Fallen and me understand some of the 'whys', I think we'd sincerely appreciate it. You're as good at interpreting that stuff as possible! Why the positions of the two camps and right to express them weren't equally valid and the same in their underlying identification of inaccurate perceptions as the cause; and why there have been innumerable passionate historical debates over some general board or poster pattern/trend, with the heated exchanges allowed to flow freely unless and until someone made it personal to another party.
I know life isn't always utterly fair and no one should expect it to be -- most posters asking to have sense made of the discrepancies over time have had to do without, and sometimes this has pained you too. I think it's a good idea to at least try asking first before rolling over. I would like to think that of course the greater good of the board is vital, but that the lot of individuals (in this application, more fragile individuals) counts too. At its root, a PBC is the preliminary notion that you could be the type who is bad for a community. That's painful, so comprehensible justification and help with seeing the uniformity in it is only fair, especially as this is a mental health board concerned with people getting the right messages from their environments to the extent possible.
Consistency, benefit of the doubt, the whole "Better that a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted" thing. Even if the innocent man's circumstance hasn't endeared him. As a matter of fact, if we can't get help with seeing where the consistency is, our chances for not repeating the offense are greatly decreased, and we won't know when it's ok for us to join in future discussions in which the same kinds of things are going on but no one is being reprimanded or thought to be upsetting by anyone involved.
Ok, enough philosophizing! Boy do I wish I could be "in person" sometimes; the "in writing" thing sure does have its limits! ;- )
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