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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Peter S. on August 1, 2002, at 22:33:45
In reply to Re: Romance and Depression » Peter S., posted by Gabbi on July 31, 2002, at 23:03:04
Gabbi,
That's very wise counsel. Yes it's unfortunate that all my methods of treating my depression have not been completely effective. My current regimen has been more successful than anything previously, but I've noticed that I'm getting more and more "breakthrough" depression.
God how I hate that needy, unworthy feeling! It pisses me off so much. In a corner of my mind I know it's BS- when I'm not depressed I can be clear and present and objective about the other person and not too invested in what happens. But depression, especially when I'm attracted to someone magnifies my unworthiness and fear to ridiculous heights till I have no idea how to act. It takes way too much effort to have any kind of a relationship under these circumstances. This goes way beyond shyness or social anxiety.
I've gotten involved with women when I haven't been depressed, or more likely when I've been under the influence. When depresseion rears it's ugly head, I'm baffled about how to deal with it. In my last relationship, I actually brought it up. Unfortunately at that time I was in such a bad space that she (and I) just couldn't deal with it. It drove me back to therapy which of course acts like it has answers but I find inevitably is patronizing or ineffective. Not to say that many therapists are'nt great people but they overestimate their own techniques.
Anyway this is getting long. Again thanks for the input- it was very useful.
Peter
> Does anyone really ever listen to advice when it comes to romance?:) Especially if it is one particular person you are interested in.
>
> The way you described depression being undignified was priceless, that it is.
>
> If you have hopes of your mood stabilizing I would say WAIT!!!!! Because what is even more undignifying is feeling rebuffed (even if it caused by your depression "glasses" and then feeling really insecure and desperate, pleading for reassurance to the point of being annoying.
> And when your composure has returned trying to convince the object of your affection that that was not the way you really are.
> (can you tell thats whats happened to me?)
>
> I think it depends on what form your depression takes, a lot of people can understand someone needing space, especially if the woman is secure enough to know its not personal. If you feel really isolated and needy when you are depressed I think its risky to start anything, because though the feelings would probably happen anyway, its easy to think they are caused by some perceived flaw in the relationship.
> Not to mention if the person decides after a few dates that you aren't compatable you won't be able to take it as rationally as a "healthy" person would.
>
> I've heard its possible to succeed despite the depression. It hasn't happened to me though I've had plenty of beginnings and it was definately my depression behavior that killed them.
>
> Being a woman may make my experiences even more different from your own possibilities though.
>
> good luck (thats such a huge help I know)
> Gabbi
Posted by allisonm on August 2, 2002, at 0:16:08
In reply to Re: Romance and DepressionGabbi, posted by Peter S. on August 1, 2002, at 22:33:45
Peter,
Your description of feelings of unworthiness and fear being magnified to ridiculous heights made me cringe inside when I read it. Ugh! I know that feeling so well it gives me shivers. Then in this relationship of mine that recently ended, I made it worse by worrying that the object of my affections (I've only had one since my divorce 3 years ago) will not want me around anymore...and that became a self-fulfilling prophecy, sort of. It's easy to blame yourself or your depression for a relationship failure, but I know that there were problems of other sorts that had nothing to do with me. It's really hard to put away the other feelings (Ex.: I was unworthy, who would want to be around a depressive, etc.) and look at the whole picture, but I am trying. Having a psychiatrist/therapist who knows it wasn't "me" or "just me and my depression" helps alot. He has held up the mirror so I could see a situation closer to reality.Wish I had advice or something worthwhile to say. Your post struck a nerve and I had to reply.
Allison
Posted by Medusa on August 2, 2002, at 12:48:32
In reply to Romance and Depression, posted by Peter S. on July 31, 2002, at 20:31:26
As was said above, see if you can wait, if you're thinking you might stabilize.
This is probably irrelevant but ... oddly I've experienced that I seem to be found interesting just as I'm dropping into severe depression. Of course, that's when I can't return calls or get dressed and out the door, and if I do manage to return a call AND set something up AND get dressed AND show up as planned, I can't carry on a conversation. About anything. Very sexy.
Now I'm partnered, and part of me would like to end it. I feel like I've dragged DP down - he says I've just opened his eyes to some aspects of reality he'd ignored before. He's in counseling now, started because of looking for ways of dealing with my depression, and ended up talking about his own issues - good for him. It also takes so bloody much energy to deal with another person so much of the time.
I guess being partnered and depressed isn't really on topic with your question of Romance and Depression. What I'm living isn't much romance. It's a lot of omigosh I ... have ... to ... put ... this ... spoon ... in ... the ... dish washer ... or ... I'll ... be ... a ... burden ...
Posted by Peter S. on August 2, 2002, at 14:06:44
In reply to Re: Romance and Depression, posted by Medusa on August 2, 2002, at 12:48:32
On a related topic, I think dignity has to do with many aspects of depression including romance and intimacy
I have a photograph of a native american woman on my wall. It was taken around the turn of the century. I find her to be incredible. She exudes a dignity, strength, and wisdom from another time and culture. It seems so foreign from Western phoniness, false selves, and the concurrent shame and self hatred that many people seem to feel.
To be forthright, strong, and direct about myself and my struggles and feelings is a goal that I have in my own life. Unfortunately most of the time I tend to fall short of this goal- maybe because of a combination of my own lack of strength and the need to compromise to meet the expectations of the modern world.
All I can do is continually remind myself that my own honesty and truth must come first. Otherwise I pay the price in lost dignity.
Posted by Gabbi on August 2, 2002, at 15:01:00
In reply to Dignity and Depression, posted by Peter S. on August 2, 2002, at 14:06:44
That gave me the shivers, (the way affecting art does) Thanks Peter.
I find it somehow "easier" thats not the right word, but I've been able to be dignified when defending a "knowable" adversary, for instance when I worked with the mentally challenged and felt someone's rights were being violated. I would have no problem taking up the issue with the "big guys" at the risk of being fired.
The depression is such a different foe, and I can't figure out even what part of "me" is battling the depression when it is "me" who's depressed.
Its such a devious insidious monster, if it clearly announced itself as depression, it would be a different matter. Generally though my descent is so gradual I once again feel that it is my permanent state. It doesn't matter if I've pasted reminders of how I feel during a depression all over my house, it still fools me.
Posted by Peter S. on August 2, 2002, at 19:54:09
In reply to Re: Dignity and Depression, posted by Gabbi on August 2, 2002, at 15:01:00
Gabbi,
We're on the same page RE how depression happens. Sometimes it seems to seep up from the ground like black goo. At other times it blows in like fog (I see this very often in the SF Bay Area). What's interesting to me is how sleep effects me. I can be in a sterling mood and I take a nap and boom! It's all over- the black death returns like a plague. I cannot grasp no matter how hard I try, the feeling that I had just 2 hours before. I've taken up Buddhist meditation which holds that grasping and struggle leads to suffering. I think this is very true but unfortunately I feel that I must soldier on with my battle against depression. I must continue to try every med in existance until I've reached the final pdoc in the sky (we'll call him St.Peterdoc).
Posted by Gabbi on August 2, 2002, at 21:44:21
In reply to Re: Dignity and DepressionGabby, posted by Peter S. on August 2, 2002, at 19:54:09
Peter, I don't mean to drag you into a conversation, you feel obligated to respond to I just had to comment on the "sleep" syndrome. Thats the well the only time it hits suddenly,it can be in a matter of hours, and when I awaken its that existential pit of loneliness, that drawstring in the stomach as I've heard it described. As opposed to the other forms depression takes.
Its not that I've spent my whole life navel-gazing as it might sound, but having done battle with it for 10 years I've just learned to recognize different signs, and of course still be blind-sided by others.I tried the Buddhist surrendering as well, and I thought it was the answer, until I fell into the "pit" which I never remember how horrifying it is until I'm in it. No answer for me there either. Oh to just be able to toss it in a bag and walk away from all this, I get sick of hearing myself talk about it..
Liked your comment about St. Pdoc!!
Depressed people seem to be disproportionately witty when talking about their trials,defence I guess!Take care,
Cheer up (joke)my most hated often heard bit of "wisdom"
Posted by Peter S. on August 2, 2002, at 22:45:15
In reply to Re: Dignity and Depression » Peter S., posted by Gabbi on August 2, 2002, at 21:44:21
Hey Gabbi,
It's good to chat! I think you and I see I to I (sounds like a song) on a number of things. I just took a nap and am now settling gracefully into the goo...
> Peter, I don't mean to drag you into a conversation, you feel obligated to respond to I just had to comment on the "sleep" syndrome. Thats the well the only time it hits suddenly,it can be in a matter of hours, and when I awaken its that existential pit of loneliness, that drawstring in the stomach as I've heard it described. As opposed to the other forms depression takes.
> Its not that I've spent my whole life navel-gazing as it might sound, but having done battle with it for 10 years I've just learned to recognize different signs, and of course still be blind-sided by others.
>
> I tried the Buddhist surrendering as well, and I thought it was the answer, until I fell into the "pit" which I never remember how horrifying it is until I'm in it. No answer for me there either. Oh to just be able to toss it in a bag and walk away from all this, I get sick of hearing myself talk about it..
>
> Liked your comment about St. Pdoc!!
> Depressed people seem to be disproportionately witty when talking about their trials,defence I guess!
>
> Take care,
> Cheer up (joke)my most hated often heard bit of "wisdom"
>
Posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 0:16:47
In reply to Re: Dignity and Depression » Gabbi, posted by Peter S. on August 2, 2002, at 22:45:15
I could try to make you giggle yourself out of the goo.... I've mentioned this topic before but it never ceases to amaze me and I mean amaze. And also the reason I may never find out if my medication is working or not.
Due to my depression I'm not working, staying with my Dad in a town house complex for people over 60. Well last week we had the powdered laundry soap scandal which required 4 typewritten letters to the townhouse committee. You see some unwitting soul had sinned by using powdered not liquid laundry soap, and this you know has fillers in it and they could possibly congeal and clog the drains and SHOULD this tragedy occur and the plumber needed to be called JUST WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE for paying? ...
There is also a strict rule that everyone plant identical flowers on there identical porches, which overlook a cement parking lot with one aproximately 6 foot square of grass.
Last year when I was visiting I saw a wild rabbit on the 6 foot square of grass and incurred the wrath of the "committee" by encouraging the proliferation of rabbits by feeding it a celery stick because I was just overjoyed to see something animated in this horrible place.
A stern warning was put in my dad's mailbox. Had they been concerned that the rabbit may become used to being supplied food I would have forgiven them but no god forbid anything bouncy enter this tomb.
There are also many lovely signs decorating the parking lot with a red line crossing out a picture of a dog.
No pets ever anytime, even if you have a guest in for an hour they are strictly forbidden to bring any animal with them..and you are risking your tenancy. Thats a quote.I have to laugh at it I have to, its perverse a socially sanctioned way of being absolutely mad and very scary.
I hate the fact the one has to have money to be an idealist.Well there goes gabbi again it was however a sincere though undignified attempt to de-goo you.
Posted by Peter S. on August 3, 2002, at 1:45:16
In reply to Re: Dignity and Depression » Gabbi, posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 0:16:47
Gabbi,
Your message really un-gooed me! I mean for god's sake- no bunnies?! On the other hand I can kind of understand their issues because I've had a lot of traumatizing experiences at the hands (paws) of bunnies over the years. Lambs, puppies, and kittens also terrify me. Seriously though, that sounds like a truly miserable place. I will never understand people who would like nothing better than avoid all things that are not human derived or controlled. My utmost sympathies for having to live in a place like that.
Posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 2:00:52
In reply to Re: Dignity and Depression » Gabbi, posted by Peter S. on August 3, 2002, at 1:45:16
I had an very enjoyable howl, (undignified yes, but it certainly was no musical chuckle) over your past kitten and lamb traumas
Thanks to you too Peter
Gabbi
Posted by .tabi.T.ha. on August 3, 2002, at 2:16:59
In reply to Re: Dignity and Depression » Peter S., posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 2:00:52
And I don't mean than monty python movie with the killer rabbits. Ever seen 2 bunnies fight? They kick and claw and bite and the fur and blood really flies. Bunnies can kick so hard they can break their own backs.
Ooops, sorry Peter, didn't mean to re-traumatize you ;)
-tabitha
Posted by .tabi.T.ha. on August 3, 2002, at 2:24:45
In reply to laugh if you must, but bunnies can be quite fierce, posted by .tabi.T.ha. on August 3, 2002, at 2:16:59
Lambs are the spawn of satan. You know how in cartoons the lambs are all cute and say "baaaa."?
Well if you've ever seen one in real life you'll know this is pure propaganda. They don't cutely say baaa. They extend their evil Gene Simmons tongues and say "Bleeeeaaahhh!". Really.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2002, at 5:58:07
In reply to and lambs, oh my!, posted by .tabi.T.ha. on August 3, 2002, at 2:24:45
LOL Tabitha.
So you're saying the only reason I refuse to eat lambikins and bunnies is because I haven't got to know them yet?
Sounds logical. Chicken is one of the few animals I don't feel guilty about eating because my grandma kept some. After I got to know them well, eating them didn't seem so bad. (Perhaps you can tell I've been traumatized by entering a hencoop.)
Posted by allisonm on August 3, 2002, at 8:04:19
In reply to laugh if you must, but bunnies can be quite fierce, posted by .tabi.T.ha. on August 3, 2002, at 2:16:59
I got kicked by a bunny once and one of its hind toenails punctured my finger deeply. It hurt like hell for quite awhile. Never try to stop a bunny trying to make an escape attempt -- even if it is loose in your automobile...
Posted by Ctrlaltndel : ) on August 3, 2002, at 11:08:54
In reply to Re: laugh if you must, but bunnies can be quite fierce, posted by allisonm on August 3, 2002, at 8:04:19
(\/)
(00)
(")(")_ the little bunny is FREAKED!
Posted by Peter S. on August 3, 2002, at 12:59:44
In reply to Re: and lambs, oh my!, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2002, at 5:58:07
My next door neighbor has chickens-not you're typical farm variety, but big healthy birds. Some are jet black and others are a beautiful shade of orange/gold. They are actually very elegant. I like hanging out with them because they seem so happy go-lucky. They love to scamper around the yard and dig for worms. They are very tame and allow you to pick them up. Every morning they lay eggs and squawk until the big "birth" happens. They are all hens- otherwise the neighbors would be up in arms. Also it's good there are no chicks because these also arouse an ungodly fear in me.
Even though I really like and have grown attached to these birds, yes I still eat chicken- hypocrite that I am. But I admit that it has become a little more difficult lately.
I also am growing tomatoes which have a certain charm of their own. I may be going off salads soon...
Posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:34:48
In reply to Chickens are great ! (not just for eating), posted by Peter S. on August 3, 2002, at 12:59:44
First, we of all people should know just how long a sweet, small, soft animal without the ability to turn into a vicious beastie on occasion would last in this world don't we? (grin)
In the words of piglet "the world can be a scary place if you are one of the smaller animals"I'm a vegetarian, not because I think its wrong to eat meat. It's the way that they are raised in factory conditions for our gluttony that sickens me. But if you want to go out and shoot something and eat it, I couldn't do it, but I respect it.
I've met some free range chickens, and I swear much like children if they have a healthy environment they can actually be really sweet, and form attachments to people. Not that I think thats the basis for eating or not eating something.
And for the lambs. Well actually I saw an Ewe once at a farm, and what Tabitha said is sooo true and funny, they don't bahhh they give you this dead-eyed look, completely vaccuous stare and then kind of go bleahhhp like a prolonged belch. I had to keep going back to watch her do it again, I was having a 7yr old boy type laughing fit.
"dreamer" how do you do that with your drawings, I look at my keyboard and see a keyboard, I won't ever forget that about you.
Posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:40:36
In reply to Re: laugh if you must, but bunnies can be quite fierce, posted by allisonm on August 3, 2002, at 8:04:19
I'm sorry about your war wounds, but your words of wisdom at the end "tickled my funnybone" so to speak. Its like the moral of the story, Winnie the Pooh style..
Never try to catch an escaping bunny even if its loose in your automobile. Words to live by
Posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:42:30
In reply to Re: laugh if you must, but bunnies can be AlisonM, posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:40:36
Posted by allisonm on August 3, 2002, at 15:48:51
In reply to Re: laugh if you must, but bunnies can be AlisonM, posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:40:36
Yeah, that's the sort of thing that ought to be listed prominently in one of those New-York-Times-
Bestseller-List-type self-help books...I learned a lesson on that one. My finger hurt for days and days.
Posted by Ctrlaltndel : ) on August 3, 2002, at 15:49:06
In reply to Re: In defence of Bunnies and Chickens, posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:34:48
I'm a vegetarian ..healthy reason..just don't like the taste anyway..
but if starving I could probably kill a bunny or cute baaa lamb ...
Hey chickens are freaky fierce creatures like demons
CLUCKY CLUCKY get fried in Kentucky.
Posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 16:08:29
In reply to frisky bunnies and freaky chickens, posted by Ctrlaltndel : ) on August 3, 2002, at 15:49:06
Despite what I foolishly said earlier I'm sure most chickens are irritating stupid things that were created to be eaten.
I don't want you to feel guilty about one more thing in your life, you have the world on your shoulders as it is.Eat Eat..freely please...
LoveGabbi Gabbi
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2002, at 16:17:45
In reply to Re: freaky chickens Urgent retraction DINAH, posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 16:08:29
How well you know me, Gabbi. But no worries. Nothing on EARTH could erase the memories of innocently entering the henhouse to a whir of chickens all seemingly aimed at my poor unsuspecting 3 year old head. Or the old rooster who chased me (and all the other grandchildren) if we ventured outdoors.
I did like to feed them, once I learned how to throw the food far far away and run like the dickens from those chickens.
But I don't eat soup chickens, because I did a study on animal farming practices in ethics class. And I try not to eat baby veal for the same reason. But I am weak, so weak, when it comes to baby veal. And many of my childhood friends were cows, too. :(
An ever-guilty,
Dinah
Posted by .tabi.T.ha. on August 3, 2002, at 17:49:42
In reply to Re: In defence of Bunnies and Chickens, posted by Gabbi on August 3, 2002, at 15:34:48
> And for the lambs. Well actually I saw an Ewe once at a farm, and what Tabitha said is sooo true and funny, they don't bahhh they give you this dead-eyed look, completely vaccuous stare and then kind of go bleahhhp like a prolonged belch. I had to keep going back to watch her do it again, I was having a 7yr old boy type laughing fit.
Gabbi-Gabbi,
Glad you confirmed my experience with lambs. I saw them at a fair and couldn't believe my eyes & ears. Especially the extended tongue. Did you see the tongue?
T
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