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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 19:27:23
Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
Posted by susan C on November 4, 2001, at 21:36:06
In reply to Depression and Free Will, posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 19:27:23
> Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
is Determinism the same as Fate? I cant remember my philosophy one o one
mouse with a dip loam a
susan C
Posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 22:18:45
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, posted by susan C on November 4, 2001, at 21:36:06
> > Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
>
> is Determinism the same as Fate? I cant remember my philosophy one o one
>
> mouse with a dip loam a
> susan CDeterminism means that everything has a cause
(except maybe God), that there's no "Susan"
someplace inside your head that "chooses" one
thing or another independently of all the
conditions that existed at the time of the
"choice". Its opposite, Free Will, means that
"all things being equal", you could have picked
(not imagined, but actually picked) "A" instead
of "B".How about this, by Ludwig Wittgenstein:
"What is troubling us is the tendency to believe
that the mind is like a little man within".I think that someone who believes that he has a
choice as to whether to be functional or not must
suffer a far greater amount of guilt, and therefor
of pain, than one who believes that he has been
unfortunate to have the wrong ratios of
neurotransmitters or their receptors on certain
neurons. That doesn't mean that he can give up
trying, because in some things the act of trying
appears to make a real difference, but as to
whether one is able to try enough, and overcome
the problem, is determined. Accepting
Determinism as your world outlook might keep you
from beating up on yourself so much.It reminds me of a John Cleese bit, where he says
something like "You make me puke, you disgusting
little turd. We all suffer the same, so quite
your winning and get up and do something for a
change!
Posted by kazoo on November 5, 2001, at 0:37:45
In reply to Depression and Free Will, posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 19:27:23
> Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
Only when I eat eggs.
"Incapacitating depression," as you put it, transcends the need, not to mention "will," to ponder such profundities. So those poor souls with a "certified" clinical depression to the point of incapacitation find it difficult to get out of bed in the morning, much less care about anything else.
Only if I eat eggs.
kazoo
Posted by Mair on November 5, 2001, at 10:29:27
In reply to Depression and Free Will, posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 19:27:23
> You're definitely right about the dangers of believing in free will. I've always struggled with the notion that even if i didn't choose to be sick, I must not want to get better because if i did, I'd "choose" to get better. Sometimes i've felt as if i should be able to "will" my depression away.
Free will may be guilt inducing, but determinism is horrifying to anyone who likes to be in control.
Mair
Posted by jojo on November 5, 2001, at 10:41:57
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, posted by susan C on November 4, 2001, at 21:36:06
> > Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
>
> is Determinism the same as Fate? I cant remember my philosophy one o one
>
> mouse with a dip loam a
> susan CDeterminism means that everything has a cause (except maybe God), that there's no "Susan" someplace inside your head that "chooses" one thing or another independently of all the conditions that existed at the time of the "choice". Its opposite, Free Will, means that "all things being equal", you could have picked (not imagined, but actually picked) "A" instead of "B".
How about this, by Ludwig Wittgenstein:
"What is troubling us is the tendency to believe that the mind is like a little man within".
I think that someone who believes that he has a choice as to whether to be functional or not must suffer a far greater amount of guilt, and therefore pain, than one who believes that he has been unfortunate to have the wrong ratios of neurotransmitters or their receptors on certain neurons. That doesn't mean that he can give up trying, because in some things the act of trying appears to make a real difference, but as to whether one is able to try enough, and overcome the problem, is determined. Accepting Determinism as your world outlook might keep you from beating up on yourself so much.
Free Will reminds me of a John Cleese bit, where he says something like "You make me puke, you disgusting little turd. We all suffer the same, so quite your winning and get up and do something for a change!
Posted by jojo on November 6, 2001, at 11:19:02
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will » jojo, posted by kazoo on November 5, 2001, at 0:37:45
> > Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
>
> Only when I eat eggs.
>
> "Incapacitating depression," as you put it, transcends the need, not to mention "will," to ponder such profundities. So those poor souls with a "certified" clinical depression to the point of incapacitation find it difficult to get out of bed in the morning, much less care about anything else.
>
> Only if I eat eggs.
>
> kazooI don't think so, kazoo. If one can't get out of bed, they can still wonder why they can't, and feel terrible guilt for being so lacking in "character" that they can't get up and have a life like everyone else appears to be having. It appears to be next to impossible to explain the lack of ability to accomplish anything to anyone who has not been through the experience, because almost everyone believes, intuitively, that there IS a little person inside their head that decides what they do, as opposed to what I believe to actually be the case, that what we do is determined by circumstances, and then we tell ourselves a little story, a rationalization, of why we did it. Accepting this relieves much of the guilt and pain accompanying depression. It doesn't make you any better; just allows you to feel less of a person with an extreme failure of character.
Under less incapacitating circumstances, I believe that it is healthy to act as if you have Free Will, but more fruitful and educational, indeed, actually may give you more situational control, to understand others as having their behavior determined.
Posted by kid47 on November 7, 2001, at 15:49:14
In reply to Depression and Free Will, posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 19:27:23
Posted by Cam W. on November 8, 2001, at 0:53:02
In reply to Depression and Free Will, posted by jojo on November 4, 2001, at 19:27:23
> Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
Jojo - Since everything we do is based on what we have done and in the past, and that is based on what our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, (ad nauseum) did, do any of us really have free will? This is regardless of any psychological or physical state. I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - Cam
Posted by wendy b. on November 8, 2001, at 9:23:39
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, posted by Cam W. on November 8, 2001, at 0:53:02
> I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - Cam
Now THAT'S depressed! :-]Still, this philosophical and religious question could also be answered by the Buddhist concept of karma. The core philosophy is the concept of inner transformation (achieving Buddha-hood), based on the belief that our thoughts, words, and actions have influence beyond their immediate context, that affect a vast and complex web of life. Which is a kind of determinism... The transformation each individual makes will contribute to the "harmony and healthy development of society." All of this is dependent on the worldview of interrelation, "where all things in the realm of humanity and nature are dependent upon each other for their existence and nothing can exist in isolation."
(from "Living Buddhism" magazine, Aug. 2001)A friend of mine who gave me a subscription to this magazine, is a Buddhist belonging to a particular sect, the Soka Gakkai International, which believes in the teachings of a 13th-century sage named Nichirin Daishonin. She's a very urbane New Yorker, very high-energy, very productive, very in-your-face and direct. Part of what this sect does as a daily practice is chanting an invocation (it's a Japanese phrase- Nam-myoho-renge-kyo) as a universal practice for attaining enlightenment. The Tibetan Buddhists chant, other sects do too. Anyway, this friend wants me to start to chant, she says it will help me in many ways. I even mentioned it to my therapist, who says it *will* help - she meditates and gets deep body massages, stuff like that, so she's very into finding "peaceful" states of mind/body, etc. and believes that will help with the depression. My friend keeps plugging the chanting, I've chanted with her, it IS very peaceful and head-clearing. (Note to the movie buffs reading this: Tina Turner chants and is a member of this sect, she's portrayed chanting in the autobiographical movie about her, can't remember the title, I think, "What's Love Got to Do With It")
Some of this I can grasp, but it's still a belief system that doesn't answer why there is war, or why people hate each other and kill, or why humans developed the atom bomb. And neither do Christianity nor Judaism. They all seem to me to be based on a life here and a life hereafter (in some form or other, whether or not we become re-born or reincarnated). And that how we life in this life affects the quality of life in the next.
So doesn't the question of free will or determinism come down to: either: 1) what I do in this life has consequences and/or influence, or 2) nothing I do affects the course of my life or anyone else's?
I still don't know which I believe to be true. I guess both, depending on how depressed, existential, whatever, I may be at any given time. Maybe that's one of my problems: I wobble about big issues like this. I have no "bottom line" faith in anything... But I do keep plugging away, looking for some kind of enlightenment...
meandering-ly yours,
Wendy
Posted by jojo on November 8, 2001, at 10:23:04
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, what about Karma?, posted by wendy b. on November 8, 2001, at 9:23:39
> > I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - Cam
>
>
> Now THAT'S depressed! :-]
>
> Still, this philosophical and religious question could also be answered by the Buddhist concept of karma. The core philosophy is the concept of inner transformation (achieving Buddha-hood), based on the belief that our thoughts, words, and actions have influence beyond their immediate context, that affect a vast and complex web of life. Which is a kind of determinism... The transformation each individual makes will contribute to the "harmony and healthy development of society." All of this is dependent on the worldview of interrelation, "where all things in the realm of humanity and nature are dependent upon each other for their existence and nothing can exist in isolation."
> (from "Living Buddhism" magazine, Aug. 2001)
>
> A friend of mine who gave me a subscription to this magazine, is a Buddhist belonging to a particular sect, the Soka Gakkai International, which believes in the teachings of a 13th-century sage named Nichirin Daishonin. She's a very urbane New Yorker, very high-energy, very productive, very in-your-face and direct. Part of what this sect does as a daily practice is chanting an invocation (it's a Japanese phrase- Nam-myoho-renge-kyo) as a universal practice for attaining enlightenment. The Tibetan Buddhists chant, other sects do too. Anyway, this friend wants me to start to chant, she says it will help me in many ways. I even mentioned it to my therapist, who says it *will* help - she meditates and gets deep body massages, stuff like that, so she's very into finding "peaceful" states of mind/body, etc. and believes that will help with the depression. My friend keeps plugging the chanting, I've chanted with her, it IS very peaceful and head-clearing. (Note to the movie buffs reading this: Tina Turner chants and is a member of this sect, she's portrayed chanting in the autobiographical movie about her, can't remember the title, I think, "What's Love Got to Do With It")
>
> Some of this I can grasp, but it's still a belief system that doesn't answer why there is war, or why people hate each other and kill, or why humans developed the atom bomb. And neither do Christianity nor Judaism. They all seem to me to be based on a life here and a life hereafter (in some form or other, whether or not we become re-born or reincarnated). And that how we life in this life affects the quality of life in the next.
>
> So doesn't the question of free will or determinism come down to: either: 1) what I do in this life has consequences and/or influence, or 2) nothing I do affects the course of my life or anyone else's?
>
> I still don't know which I believe to be true. I guess both, depending on how depressed, existential, whatever, I may be at any given time. Maybe that's one of my problems: I wobble about big issues like this. I have no "bottom line" faith in anything... But I do keep plugging away, looking for some kind of enlightenment...
>
> meandering-ly yours,
>
> Wendy"So doesn't the question of free will or determinism come down to: either: 1) what I do in this life has consequences and/or influence, or 2) nothing I do affects the course of my life or anyone else's?"
Everything you do in life has consequences, and effects the course of your life and that of others. It's just that what you do is determined by your "state" at the time you do it. Do the best that you can. How hard you try is also determined. Act as if you have Free Will, but try to see the actions of others as being Determined. This will help you to understand why they act as they do, and possibly modify their behavior. It will also help to remove feelings of guilt for your failures.
"In walking, just walk.
In sitting, just sit. Above
all, don't wobble."Yun-Men
Posted by jojo on November 8, 2001, at 10:42:00
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, posted by Cam W. on November 8, 2001, at 0:53:02
> > Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
>
> Jojo - Since everything we do is based on what we have done and in the past, and that is based on what our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, (ad nauseum) did, do any of us really have free will? This is regardless of any psychological or physical state. I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - CamCam-
No, I don't believe that any of us have Free Will. I think the feeling of having it is added on
after the "choice" is determined, and this feeling is probably healthy, and keeps us from feeling helpless."This is regardless of any psychological or physical state. I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - Cam
I don't see this as regardless of any psychological or physical state. This IS your psychological and physical state, which also includes your neurological condition, determined by previous events, and external conditions effecting you. Your not damned
either way. You can only do the best that you can do.
Posted by Cam W. on November 8, 2001, at 14:26:29
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, what about Karma?, posted by wendy b. on November 8, 2001, at 9:23:39
Posted by wendy b. on November 9, 2001, at 12:54:54
In reply to Your Karma just ran over my Dogma! (nm) » wendy b., posted by Cam W. on November 8, 2001, at 14:26:29
Hey, Cam,
I've heard that one before! Veeerrrryyy funny...
tee hee,
Wendy
Posted by galtin on November 9, 2001, at 22:06:08
In reply to Re: Depression and Free Will, posted by Cam W. on November 8, 2001, at 0:53:02
> > Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
>
> Jojo - Since everything we do is based on what we have done and in the past, and that is based on what our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, (ad nauseum) did, do any of us really have free will? This is regardless of any psychological or physical state. I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - CamONE CHEER FOR FREE WILL.
Neither free will nor determinism can be proved. They are both constructs we impose on the past as a way of understanding ourselves in the present. To prove determinism, we would have to trace an infinite regression back to an undetermined first event of determination or back to the totality of determined events. Both are impossible.
So forget that line of thought and just look at our everyday experience. You can defend determinism, but only as an a priori supposition of faith. The consequences are a tad depressing, since determinism annuls the concept of humans as moral (or immoral) agents.
I think my decisions and actions are mostly a combination of influences, including genes and past experiences and including a capacity to transcend these influences in ways that cannot be predicted in advance, or interpreted in hindsight, by determinism.
As for depression with the big D, it is a catastrophic biological event that reduces dramatically my field of action, but not necessarily the capacity for choice. The choices are just, well, blander. To sit up in bed or not sit up in bed. To drag self to the shower site in bathroom or remain slumped on the bed. To actually subject the self to a shower or flee in alarm at the prospect of standing in one place naked, to grunt at loved ones passing through or attempt conversation (though not dialogue), to address household pets or. . . . . . . . . .
galtin
Posted by Mair on November 11, 2001, at 20:36:14
In reply to Re: One Cheer for Free Will, posted by galtin on November 9, 2001, at 22:06:08
Somewhere I'm sure Cotton Mather is spinning in his grave.
Mair
Posted by galtin on November 12, 2001, at 23:06:32
In reply to Re: One Cheer for Free Will » galtin, posted by Mair on November 11, 2001, at 20:36:14
> Somewhere I'm sure Cotton Mather is spinning in his grave.
>
> Mair
Indeed!
galtin
Posted by jojo on November 20, 2001, at 1:18:15
In reply to Re: One Cheer for Free Will » galtin, posted by Mair on November 11, 2001, at 20:36:14
> Somewhere I'm sure Cotton Mather is spinning in his grave.
>
> MairCotton, maybe, but not Einstein, Spinoza or Freud.
Posted by jojo on November 20, 2001, at 1:36:36
In reply to Re: One Cheer for Free Will, posted by galtin on November 9, 2001, at 22:06:08
> > > Has anyone found that the experience of incapacitating depression has changed their outlook regarding Free Will and Determinism?
> >
> > Jojo - Since everything we do is based on what we have done and in the past, and that is based on what our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, (ad nauseum) did, do any of us really have free will? This is regardless of any psychological or physical state. I'm still "damned if I do: or "damned if I don't". - Cam
>
>
>
> ONE CHEER FOR FREE WILL.
>
> Neither free will nor determinism can be proved. They are both constructs we impose on the past as a way of understanding ourselves in the present. To prove determinism, we would have to trace an infinite regression back to an undetermined first event of determination or back to the totality of determined events. Both are impossible.
>
> So forget that line of thought and just look at our everyday experience. You can defend determinism, but only as an a priori supposition of faith. The consequences are a tad depressing, since determinism annuls the concept of humans as moral (or immoral) agents.
>
> I think my decisions and actions are mostly a combination of influences, including genes and past experiences and including a capacity to transcend these influences in ways that cannot be predicted in advance, or interpreted in hindsight, by determinism.
>
> As for depression with the big D, it is a catastrophic biological event that reduces dramatically my field of action, but not necessarily the capacity for choice. The choices are just, well, blander. To sit up in bed or not sit up in bed. To drag self to the shower site in bathroom or remain slumped on the bed. To actually subject the self to a shower or flee in alarm at the prospect of standing in one place naked, to grunt at loved ones passing through or attempt conversation (though not dialogue), to address household pets or. . . . . . . . . .
>
>
> galtinSuppose we hooked you up to a PET Scanner, and
told you to move a finger whenever you felt like
it. Further, suppose that the neural structures
that would move that finger showed activation
before you indicated that you "had chosen" to
move your finger. Would that not indicate that
your "brain" had "decided" to move the finger
before "you" had made the decision, and that
possibly the feeling of a "free choice" was then
added on to the "choice" that had already been
determined? How could you tell the difference,
other than the intuitive feeling that "you had
made a free choice?". Admittedly a healthy
feeling, but possibly not the way the mechanism
works.
This is the end of the thread.
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