![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Willow on August 12, 2001, at 21:42:10
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by susan C on August 12, 2001, at 20:49:53
> There is a german lady I know who loves to kayak. She arranges outings every weekend. She is so disappointed only 10% of the people who say they will come actually arrive. I think she has a very responsible attitude and that in general, Americans don't take promises they make very seriouusly.
I think it depends on how passionate you are about something. For those who suffer with depression I think it is good for them to find their passion. If it doesn't appeal then perhaps it is a way for us to guage our depression.
> I decided today, that when I walk, I am going to try to smile and say hello to every person who passes by.
My daughter hates it that I greet people. I have a friend who doesn't say hello to acquaintainces because she figures they really don't give a crap how she is doing. (With her attitude she's probably right.) I figure a quick hello and to ask the elderly neighbour how their dog is doing doesn't hurt. (You get the picture.) My neighbour is between mine and my mother's age, poor soul living next door to me. Anyway some days I think it does her good to rant. She's a director of the universe. You meet all sorts and then you find people with common interests or you end up broadening your own. It's great what a little smile can do!
Regarding the effexor, AKC, have you had depressive episodes over a period of time. Myself I've had a few since my teens, each has affected schooling and or work. I don't want my life interrupted again, I figure I'm an effexor lifer. Since you restarted it mark three weeks on the calendar and all should be well by then.
I'm counting down till the yellow bus comes, 23 more sleeps! Grandma took the girls out shopping today for school clothes.
I've been on mirapex now over a week. I had tried upping the dose like I was suppose to but side-effects were worse than benefits, so I'm back to half a tablet and today was a normal day for me, except headache and muscle tension, have to start up the baclofen. So if it takes a little yellow pill (or anyother colour) to help this momma along so what!!
Willow sprouting too many roots.
Posted by kazoo on August 12, 2001, at 23:26:08
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
> Your lonely hounddog
My dear, how can you say you're alone when you have the teeming masses here just waiting for your every beck and call?
Re. aloneness? You are not alone.
And a blurb from one who's been around the block, in addition to laying its cornerstone as well: "It's better to be alone than wishing that you were."
Chin up!
I saw this info which I though would be of particular interest to you: http://www.lexisone.com/professionaldevelopment/pdlibrary/pd073101b.html
kazoo
Posted by mila on August 12, 2001, at 23:50:08
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » mila, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 20:20:46
Hi again,
>
> I do understand that the depression has added to my isolation and aloneness. And it sure has made it difficult to reach out and make new friends here in KC (where I just moved two years ago). However, I made the very conscious decision some years ago, because of some bad advice, to cut off from a group of friends completely. That decision haunts me to this day -- in AA lingo it is a regret of the past.... wow, let me join you in your regret... do you feel like it would be wholesome to tell them now that you regret that it happened and that you have some fond memories of your times together? Maybe there is another way to forgive yourself, but I see this one as a proper way. Even if you'll never reconnect with them again, you'll get it off your chest.
> And, I made another decision, a good one I believe, to turn my back on fundamentalistic Christianity -- a place where I had many, many friends.
AKC, from the dream I had 2 days ago I got a powerful insight: people are not what they believe, they believe what they feel. You are a very passionate person and that probably made you friends with those people from church, not the shared dogma. From my personal experience I'd say that fundamentalists ( I know only Russian Ortodox and Roman Catholics) are very pure and passionate people, you can count on them in every situation. Or maybe I just got lucky. I am so greatful for all the good the church has done to my family. I get tired from ceremonies, and I do not frequent them today, but Faith is the greatest thing ever 'invented' by the humankind. It keeps the sense of the mystery alive.
> Ever since those two decisions, I have never had friends the same as then.
Do you know why? (besides moving, changing careers, and health problems?)
>
>
> > BHW,
>
> What does "BHW" stand for?Oops, a typo. I meant BTW (by the way)
>
> I don't want you to think I am without any contacts. I actually have several people who care for me in AA and Alanon -- I think I am just reaching out to the wrong people, like this person who canceled the dinner plans. One of the only reasons I am going to AA and Alanon is for the socialization -- I have met some of the most caring, wonderful people. Also a few jerks, but I know how to duck and run. This particular friend is someone who happens to be a lesbian and I don't have too many lesbian friends. I continue to hope to make more connections in the lesbian community, so I have tried to nuture this connection. I am going to have to try other avenues.
>
AKC, do everything in your power to find love. do not mind sex just for today. One of the sentences from Andrew Solomon that struck me most is where he says that sex on antidepressants is next to impossible that is unless you are deeply in love with your darling.> I will be honest -- even when I am at my best, I don't do well with strangers. It takes a lot for me to talk to strangers. I admire someone like you who can talk with people you meet in a restaurant or elsewhere -- I think that is neat.
maybe it is because I do not really perceive people from my streets as strangers. Toronto is a big city, but people who live in my area do not feel like complete strangers to me. I grew up in a village, and there the same thing happened. Half a village are 'strangers', others are 'not so strange', even if you barely know them. whoever walks my streets is easy for me to greet, for they are on my turf :)
>> I definitely could use a massage. I have been considering that a lot lately. Do you know someone in KC? Is a masseuse always female (let me demonstrate my ignorance)?
yes a masseuse is a female :) I wasn't really talking about a massage therapist. I see a difference here similar to a difference between a chef and a hospital cook. ( I am a chef myself, and when I feed patients where I volunteer a hospital food, my heart bleeds)... although not a lesbian, I sometimes crave a woman's touch, physically. It is more diffuse and nonspecific and pulls me out of my thoughts into a delicious sensual reverie. I mentioned massage by a woman to you because you are very smart, and smart people need a break, they need their body to take over once in a while. Maybe, when body starves, it aches and becomes moody. I do not know.
good night...
Posted by mila on August 13, 2001, at 7:58:40
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by susan C on August 12, 2001, at 20:49:53
> I decided today, that when I walk, I am going to try to smile and say hello to every person who passes by.
>
Hello Susan,
you are adorable. I am just passing by, and I reread you post. Thank you for you smile.Have you fully recovered from the car accident?
I also wonder whether you have ever worked with Feldenkrais practitioner? I met one once and oh boy, it was magical. The only words that describe that experience are 'I met my body for the first time'... I do not have any physical impairments (or so I thought) so he didn't even have to touch me, but I learned how to stand, sit, and walk "naturally", so that there is an amazing feeling of ease and flow...
love
mila
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 7:59:27
In reply to Re: More on aloneness, posted by mila on August 12, 2001, at 23:50:08
milo,
> ... wow, let me join you in your regret... do you feel like it would be wholesome to tell them now that you regret that it happened and that you have some fond memories of your times together? Maybe there is another way to forgive yourself, but I see this one as a proper way. Even if you'll never reconnect with them again, you'll get it off your chest.
I have tried to locate one person. This is a good AA principle -- making amends (the 9th step). In fact, it is my understanding that she is here in KC. She was my closest friend, and I hurt her deeply with my actions. Unfortunately, she has a common last name, and I have never been able to find her.
> AKC, from the dream I had 2 days ago I got a powerful insight: people are not what they believe, they believe what they feel. You are a very passionate person and that probably made you friends with those people from church, not the shared dogma. From my personal experience I'd say that fundamentalists ( I know only Russian Ortodox and Roman Catholics) are very pure and passionate people, you can count on them in every situation. Or maybe I just got lucky. I am so greatful for all the good the church has done to my family. I get tired from ceremonies, and I do not frequent them today, but Faith is the greatest thing ever 'invented' by the humankind. It keeps the sense of the mystery alive.
>My spiritual journey has been complex. From the age of 16 to 28, I was involved in the fundamentalistic side of christianity -- not a good mix with my lesbianism. They kinda said that made me a sinner and all and would lead me on a path to hell. As you can imagine, that messed with my head. Finally, I was able to make a healthy choice, not a running away choice (I had tried that), and was able to turn away from those beliefs. Then, when I decided to get sober three years ago, I turned back to christianity as my choice of a higher power for AA. But when my mental illness got so bad 2 years ago, things got confusing again. I am now stuck in a loop -- I either believe in some sort of higher power (and not necessarily Christian) that I am very, very pissed at or I don't believe at all. It is difficult and confusing for me right now. And it is hard to be at AA and Alanon because those are very spiritual based programs.
> > Ever since those two decisions, I have never had friends the same as then.
>
> Do you know why? (besides moving, changing careers, and health problems?)Those three are the big reasons, but I think there is much more. I think I am having some big trust issues. I think some big stuff from my childhood is really raising its ugly head right now -- more so than ever.
> >
> AKC, do everything in your power to find love. do not mind sex just for today. One of the sentences from Andrew Solomon that struck me most is where he says that sex on antidepressants is next to impossible that is unless you are deeply in love with your darling.
>I am determined to finish that book! < g > (I'm still at page 110 - I haven't read at all since this spell has started). Trust me, sex is not even an issue right now. Ever since I have been on Effexor, I have had absolutely no libido (I shake my head in wonderment that Willow's sex drive has increased on this med!). I think my romantic notion that I have fixated upon is the idea that there is someone for me that can hold me at night when I need to be held. That is what I am so desparate for right now -- and something I have never had.
>
> yes a masseuse is a female :)I asked because I am uneasy about having a man touch my body. While my dad only physically abused me, I still have issues with certain types of contact. So how do I go about finding a masseuse versus a massage therapist?
AKC
Posted by mila on August 13, 2001, at 8:34:24
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » mila, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 7:59:27
> So how do I go about finding a masseuse versus a massage therapist?
In a spa where they are sensual pleasure, delight, and beauty oriented, rather than sickness-repair oriented?
... I'll get back to you later this evening to talk if I may, have to hit the books now, tonight is my final on perception.
good morning to you :)
mila
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 10:24:09
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 16:00:32
> Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!
re: Fundamental Christianity - I was raised as a fundamentalist, and decided at 18 that I simply no longer believed that Christ was the only way to "God." Since then, I have realized that it is not a "friendly" religion in its entirety, though there are some very sincere and wonderful people who are a part of it (including my parents). I have gone through the atheist quandry and am now an agnostic for whatever that is worth.
I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.
So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
(Now let's see if I can take my own advice.:))
- K.
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 11:24:32
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 10:24:09
Hi, everybody,
This is really getting into a group discussion...let's see,The recovery from whiplash has been slow, but now, in the last month or two, seems to be better. I am hoping I can go to settlement with in a couple of months.
Finding a non-therapeudic massage, There are Spas, with wraps and mud facials and etc. Those are fun and very feminine. Often, a Massage Therapist (man or woman) is state licenced and has that name because of state licencing and the desire of the industry to remove themselves from ahem! other types of 'massage' Amost any therapist/massage person will and can do different kinds. They have a repertoire. You can look up Massage in the yellow pages. I have a problem, or let's say challenge with having guys give me massages, though my husband likes it when I get home.lol. He needs to give me more massages.
I have heard of Feldenkrist, and cranial sacrail and I haven't tried them yet. I am going through the 10 rolfings again, and that seems to be helping the areas of pain and my balance. Plus swim exercise and walking and losing weight. This is hard work.
Christianity and going to church. My understanding is the first and most left wing of the protestant churches is the United Church of Christ, Congregational. It was the first, as I undersand, to openly accept all sexual orientation as members and clergy. The one in our town is full of educators and very conscientious(sp?) people. I grew up in a medical family, my dad was raised strict southern baptist, my mother norwegian luthern, both from small farming towns. They swore they would never live in a small town and chose Congregational church for us to go to...which we kind-of did. Dad was really an agnostic. Mom now goes to the Episciple (sp?) church, because she likes the peole there. When my kids were little, my husband had not been baptised, and he did not really have an opinion, so we tried out lots, mormons (those nice boys in suits and ties always came by on their bikes in the spring) some other 'american' religions, presbertian(sp?) and congregational. When the boys got to be about 7 or so, we all lost interest.
I am a joiner when I am manic, a recluse when I am depressed.
I have lived in the same town for 31 years. I am always amazed that I don't see people who have lived here just as long. I have moved 5 times and after the 2nd time I noticed it took about two years for me and the neighbors to get to know each other. You know, passing by, happening to go out for the mail at the same time, asking for a cup of sugar or an egg, watch the place while on vacation, meet while mowing the lawn, or appreciating a sunset.
> > Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!I agree,
-s
>
> re: Fundamental Christianity - I was raised as a fundamentalist, and decided at 18 that I simply no longer believed that Christ was the only way to "God." Since then, I have realized that it is not a "friendly" religion in its entirety, though there are some very sincere and wonderful people who are a part of it (including my parents). I have gone through the atheist quandry and am now an agnostic for whatever that is worth.
>
> I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
>
> I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
>
> I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
>
> We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.
>
> So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
>
> It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
>
> (Now let's see if I can take my own advice.:))
>
> - K.
Posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 11:34:42
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
Have you heard about SOS – Secular Organizations for Sobriety? They have self-help groups for people addicted to alcohol or other substances. They don't talk about a higher power or require any spiritual beliefs.
Their website is: http://www.secularhumanism.org/sos/
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:24:08
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 10:24:09
> > Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!
>
>
> I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
>The AA thing is a interesting thing for me right now. I am not working the program, that is the steps. I don't know if I would go if I did not have to. As part of my deal with the Supreme Courts of Missouri and Kansas to get my law licenses, I have agreed to go to two meetings a week. I have to get a form signed and all. This is worse than any court-ordered dwi type thing. And I have never seen any other lawyer have to do this. I have to believe it is not my drinking that landed me in this. I think it is my mental illness. When this all happened two years ago (for Missouri which Kansas piggy-backed on last year), I was in the midst of suicidal hell. I had no energy (nor funds) to fight the battle. Nor have I since then.
So I make the best of it. I find those in AA and Alanon right now I want to know better. And I try to avoid those who would preach to me. Like Saturday morning, I had those saying you just got fake it til you make it, talking about God and prayer and so forth. One of my newer friends, a lesbian, actual said some of that. I called her later and had a long talk about where I am at. I think she heard - she shared with me her 7 years out of the program and all.
> I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
>
> I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
I am definitely not going back to my friends from the church past. I don't owe any amends there. The friend I do owe is from my lesbian past -- who my church said I had to cut off. The AA thing for me works on this issue -- but I also think on this one, if it is to happen it will. I haven't spent any time on it in a long while. Please noone -- don't slap K's hands! :)
>
> We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.Use Away!!
>
> So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
>
> It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
>The work things is the problem. But I'll save that for another post.
Thanks for your thoughts -- keep them coming. They are helping me think clearer.
AKC
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:39:04
In reply to secular group, posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 11:34:42
> Have you heard about SOS – Secular Organizations for Sobriety? They have self-help groups for people addicted to alcohol or other substances. They don't talk about a higher power or require any spiritual beliefs.
>
> Their website is: http://www.secularhumanism.org/sos/calla,
Thanks. I have -- I am unaware of any of their groups locally. And unfortunately, even if there was a group, it would not "count" for my licensing requirement. Alanon doesn't even count.
I do think for those who don't want to believe in a higher power concept, this type of organization needs to grow and be more available.
I have to be honest -- I don't think that is where I am headed. When I am at my most honest, usually at my Tuesday evening Alanon group, a group of people I feel more connected with than any, I can admit that there is something more than just the dirt around me that holds us together. I'm refusing to name that something most days. And I am pretty sure that something when it is named will look quite different than those christian beliefs I once held. But between here and there I have a lot of anger I have to process. And I am just needing people in the AA and Alanon groups I go to to not preach -- actually, even when I find a power I can reach out to, I still won't want the preaching. I want to be one that accepts others and feels accepted by others.
AKC
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 12:40:14
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:24:08
Life is like a pie, it is only so big and the more pieces you cut it into, the smaller each piece is.
And I like BIG pieces of pie.
-Susan C.
> > > Wow, what a wonderful and caring thread!
> >
> >
> > I wouldn't go back to friends from that realm in your life, but that's just me. Mila speaks of a purity in fundamentalists that I think you do find in the Catholic Church, but not in many Evangelicals. And re: that part of AA - that's what would probably always keep me from it, so I'm impressed you've been able to work with that.
> >
>
> The AA thing is a interesting thing for me right now. I am not working the program, that is the steps. I don't know if I would go if I did not have to. As part of my deal with the Supreme Courts of Missouri and Kansas to get my law licenses, I have agreed to go to two meetings a week. I have to get a form signed and all. This is worse than any court-ordered dwi type thing. And I have never seen any other lawyer have to do this. I have to believe it is not my drinking that landed me in this. I think it is my mental illness. When this all happened two years ago (for Missouri which Kansas piggy-backed on last year), I was in the midst of suicidal hell. I had no energy (nor funds) to fight the battle. Nor have I since then.
>
> So I make the best of it. I find those in AA and Alanon right now I want to know better. And I try to avoid those who would preach to me. Like Saturday morning, I had those saying you just got fake it til you make it, talking about God and prayer and so forth. One of my newer friends, a lesbian, actual said some of that. I called her later and had a long talk about where I am at. I think she heard - she shared with me her 7 years out of the program and all.
>
> > I want to go get a massage now - perhaps we all should, including Kazoo?
> >
> > I don't know that I completely agree with the making amends part of AA, but then I probably don't understand it. I personally would rather forge ahead and work on where you are now with friendships, such as getting into the resident lesbian community, rather than visit the past. I don't know what happened with you, but drawing from my own meager experience, I wouldn't try to make amends with a friend I cut off years ago. Perhaps I will get my hand slapped here though.
>
>
> I am definitely not going back to my friends from the church past. I don't owe any amends there. The friend I do owe is from my lesbian past -- who my church said I had to cut off. The AA thing for me works on this issue -- but I also think on this one, if it is to happen it will. I haven't spent any time on it in a long while. Please noone -- don't slap K's hands! :)
>
>
> >
> > We all have only so much energy and you are being pulled many, many ways. I have to remind myself of this constantly. And I don't have as much energy as most people. I, like Susan, am using your posts selfishly, thinking about this now.
>
> Use Away!!
>
> >
> > So your work is taking up a lot of energy. I'm guessing your home situation is O.K. because you're at the same location you've been at for awhile. Your SELF needs a lot of energy right now. So maybe there's not a great deal left over for relationships at this moment. So maybe you just need to find a little something you can do, maybe once a week, to start building that part of your life until you can put more energy into that category. (This is just me thinking aloud, and, yes, quite selfishly). Is it, going to a poetry reading? (By the way, I, too, suck at meeting strangers.) Or, taking a one night a week creative class of some sort? (Again, I'm helping myself here. Have lived in Woodstock for a year, and only know one person).
> >
> > It can't take up much time. Because You need that time right now, it seems. Remember, if you plan in being in KC for awhile, you do have lots of time to connect. And even a little step might make you feel like you're on your way.
> >
>
> The work things is the problem. But I'll save that for another post.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts -- keep them coming. They are helping me think clearer.
>
> AKC
Posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 13:11:28
In reply to Re: secular group, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:39:04
AKC –
How can the state require you to attend a group that's based on a spiritual belief system? Isn't there something wrong with that picture?
By the way, I have spiritual beliefs myself, although I'm not religious (I find it easier to picture God as female, for one thing—the male God of my childhood is a cold, unloving image to me and associated with judgmentalism and repression). I just wouldn't want beliefs imposed on me by any public or private entity.
The ideal group to me would be one where the members could talk about their spiritual beliefs if they had any and how their beliefs supported their recovery, but where those without a spiritual orientation would be on equal footing. Everyone (ideally) would feel accepted and respected regardless of their beliefs or how much they chose to discuss them.
I think in SOS the participants are free to talk about anything—spiritual or not—although I'm not an expert on that group. I don't have addiction issues but went to an SOS meeting to see how its format might apply to other mental health issues. I was impressed by what I observed and learned about it.
calla
> calla,
>
> Thanks. I have -- I am unaware of any of their groups locally. And unfortunately, even if there was a group, it would not "count" for my licensing requirement. Alanon doesn't even count.
>
> I do think for those who don't want to believe in a higher power concept, this type of organization needs to grow and be more available.
>
> I have to be honest -- I don't think that is where I am headed. When I am at my most honest, usually at my Tuesday evening Alanon group, a group of people I feel more connected with than any, I can admit that there is something more than just the dirt around me that holds us together. I'm refusing to name that something most days. And I am pretty sure that something when it is named will look quite different than those christian beliefs I once held. But between here and there I have a lot of anger I have to process. And I am just needing people in the AA and Alanon groups I go to to not preach -- actually, even when I find a power I can reach out to, I still won't want the preaching. I want to be one that accepts others and feels accepted by others.
>
> AKC
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:05:10
In reply to Life is like a pie, posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 12:40:14
> An apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese on top. Mmmm..
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:08:09
In reply to Re: More on aloneness - AKC, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 12:24:08
O.K. I am not preaching! Please don't slap my hand. ;)
I have found the philosophy of Taoism to be very helpful these last few months, specifically, the Tao of Pooh, which I've read many times. It's so light and easy on the mind.
Many of the Taoists books I've picked up do wander into mysticism toward the end, but you can fetter that out.
- K.
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 14:19:57
In reply to Re: Life is like a pie, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:05:10
> > An apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese on top. Mmmm..
just slightly, every so slightly, melting....yummm
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 14:48:07
In reply to Re: secular group » akc, posted by calla on August 13, 2001, at 13:11:28
> How can the state require you to attend a group that's based on a spiritual belief system? Isn't there something wrong with that picture?
>Would you believe, being a lawyer, I had never thought of the church/state issue before? But the world of getting your license is its own little world. It is not a guaranteed right, and because it is controlled by the Missouri Supreme Court (not the state legislature - this is true in almost all states), the only body that could review it is the U.S. Supreme Court. To date, the U.S. Supreme Court has been very, very reluctant to review any cases regarding admissions to the legal bar (there were a couple of cases back during the 60's involving civil rights). So it is the case that you really just got to suck it up and do what they want you to do. Unless you have the wealth and emotional fortitude to fight it -- knowing that you will probably lose.
I do think that because AA and Alanon let you choose a "God of your understanding" the state bar would argue that it isn't a religion, so it is not forcing you to believe a particular thing to become an attorney. Or that a court is forcing you to believe something to stay out of jail or to keep your driver's license or whatever the situation may be. So even if there was a case to come before the Supreme Court, I doubt that they would find that there was a separation of church/state problem.
There are lots of individuals that come to AA anymore that are being forced there for at least a short time by the order of a court or a state licensing board. Haven't ever run into someone like me (under a five year sentence).
Enough of the law school class for the day.
AKC
Posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 14:49:03
In reply to Re: Life is like a pie, posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 14:05:10
> > An apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese on top. Mmmm..
For me, banana cream!
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 17:55:22
In reply to Re: Life is like a pie, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 14:49:03
> > > An apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese on top. Mmmm..
>
>
> For me, banana cream!My absolute favorite is made by a little vietnamise pastry shop down the street. It is a Lemon Merange(sp) that is so tart, and more like a cross between jello and pudding lemon. My son and I both agree, if we could find a Key Lime pie as tart as this lemon one, we would be set.
Posted by mila on August 13, 2001, at 23:57:37
In reply to Re: More on aloneness » mila, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 7:59:27
hello AKC,
I hope you had a good day today.
I loved your post that I read this morning and had much feeling and a bunch of thoughts in response. Unfortunately, I had a very long day today and kinda lost the spark. I mean the fire is somewhere inside, but I do not know now where to look.
I want to send you a bunch of delicate white roses tonight.
much love
m.
Posted by calla on August 14, 2001, at 0:53:29
In reply to Re: secular group » calla, posted by akc on August 13, 2001, at 14:48:07
> I do think that because AA and Alanon let you choose a "God of your understanding" the state bar would argue that it isn't a religion, so it is not forcing you to believe a particular thing to become an attorney. Or that a court is forcing you to believe something to stay out of jail or to keep your driver's license or whatever the situation may be. So even if there was a case to come before the Supreme Court, I doubt that they would find that there was a separation of church/state problem.
Choose a "God of your understanding"? What about atheists? As you can probably tell, it irks me the way 12-step programs are often forced on people as if they were the only or best alternatives when they are really not for everyone. They pretty much have a monopoly in the self-help/support group arena and people just assume they are better because of that. Is there any data to support that they are more effective than, say, an SOS type program? (I'm just venting about this--hope you don't mind.)
calla
Posted by akc on August 15, 2001, at 10:18:31
In reply to Re: secular group » akc, posted by calla on August 14, 2001, at 0:53:29
> Choose a "God of your understanding"? What about atheists? As you can probably tell, it irks me the way 12-step programs are often forced on people as if they were the only or best alternatives when they are really not for everyone. They pretty much have a monopoly in the self-help/support group arena and people just assume they are better because of that. Is there any data to support that they are more effective than, say, an SOS type program? (I'm just venting about this--hope you don't mind.)
>calla,
I do not mind, at all! I poked around the net a little to see what studies I could find, but did not have the patience to locate any research on the effect 12 step programs have on recovery. I remember from when I went to treatment being told that research showed that people who participated in 12 step programs had a greater chance of staying sober than those who did not. The program I went to is pretty reputable, so I don't think it was bs they were feeding us. The big point being made is that you stood a better chance with AA than without. I want to think it was with the support of AA than without the support. And therefore any type of group that is offering support, like SOS or others, would be just effective. But I know of no research to back this up.
However, I do know that people in the program think they are god themselves -- they can be worse than the most fanatical type of religion -- my way or hell. That it is AA itself that is the magical trick. That the 12 steps and the Big Book are religious program inspired by God and if you do what it says, God is going to keep you sober.
I've had to be very selective in the meetings I attend to find one's that are not so big book thumpers that I feel totally isolated and alone. And I have been fortunate to find people in the program that don't find it necessary to beat me over the head with every other word that I have to get god or get out.
It is very hard in certain parts of the country for any other types of groups to even get started. There is just a stigma to non-god groups -- KC is on the edge of the bible belt and it just makes it tough. The meetings around here all end with the Lord's prayer -- just drives me nuts. I have only found one other person in the two years I have lived here other than myself who does not join in the prayer. You know there have to be others that a) don't believe in a judeo/christian god and b) are offended by this prayer. But because of the group pressure, they go ahead and join in. You come into this very fragile, looking for help with a drinking problem, you want something different. If it is not there, you don't have the strength to start it at that point, and if you get sober with or without the help of AA, by the time you have the strength, you might not have the motivation.
Anyway, talk about going on and on. I understand your beef with 12 step groups. I do need to add a disclaimer. If there was a secular group in KC and if I was not under order to go to AA, I still probably would not go to the secular group -- I would probably not go at all or just go to Alanon. I don't think my path is going to lead me away from a concept of a higher power. I am just stuck right now at either trying not to believe or being very mad when I do believe.
Did any of this make sense?
AKC
Posted by calla on August 15, 2001, at 14:18:27
In reply to Re: secular group » calla, posted by akc on August 15, 2001, at 10:18:31
> Did any of this make sense?
AKC,
Yes it does make sense.
Even for support groups that don't have anything to do with addiction problems the 12 step model is viewed by many as superior simply because it's touted as such so often. Among other problems, the 12 steps in my opinion aren't really applicable to other types of issues (if they are at all to alcoholism, etc.)
I know what you mean about the fanatical aspect of 12 step programs. I have known AA people. I'm sure not all people in AA are like this, but the ones I happened to work with were terribly judgmental—and not just about drinking. They also didn't seem interested in larger social issues that might contribute to alcoholism in a society.
I had a roomate who was in AA too. She was critical of me because I sometimes had a beer at home. Even though I didn't have an alcohol problem. It was like: no one should drink. At all. Ever. It was the worst kind of Puritanism. It was horrible.
In any case, I wish you luck in meeting new friends in your area.
Posted by akc on August 18, 2001, at 7:08:02
In reply to More on aloneness, posted by AKC on August 12, 2001, at 13:34:40
Well, it is the weekend. I hate weekends. At least during the week, work gives me lots of human contact. Now I am trying to make plans. I have AA this morning, with breakfast following. Then I am trying to go to the Chiefs game tonight -- stupid me, I got the tickets before I found someone to go with me. So I may have shelled out $90 for nothing. Tomorrow, I am going over to see my best friend (she lives in the next town west -- about 45 minutes away). We are going for guilty pleasures -- Legally Blonde. Then AA tomorrow night.
However, I shared with her last night that even with working on my friendships, this is not enough. I'm 36 year old and have never been in a relationship. I think I have shared on here I'm not looking for sex -- the drugs have taken care of that desire. Just someone to have companionship with. To go to the Chiefs game, to go on vacation, most importantly, someone to share both the good and the bad times with. Maybe I am a romantic, but that is what I think it is about. I look at my brothers. One has a horrible marriage. One has a great marriage (almost 20 years). The one with a great marriage -- they share everything, both good and bad. I want what they have. Oops, everytime I start thinking about this I get teary.
akc
Posted by Kingfish on August 18, 2001, at 9:25:53
In reply to More on aloneness--The Weekend, posted by akc on August 18, 2001, at 7:08:02
Remember it all has to happen slowly. Starting with getting involved in the lesbian community there.
And relationships are SO much work. I spend SO much time with my hubby right now. I would give anything for a break.
(Just a scene from the other side of the fence. :))
But, I'm sorry you're sad about this...
This is the end of the thread.
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