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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jadde on March 1, 2020, at 9:01:08
I feel like the elephant and everyone around me are monkeys.
:(
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 2:18:18
In reply to Fair selection, posted by Jadde on March 1, 2020, at 9:01:08
Yes.
I often feel like a cat in a world full of dogs.
What is it about elephants that you resonate with?
What is it about monkeys that you see in everyone else?
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 2:22:47
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 2:18:18
group or pack people have a hard time being accepting of difference.
when safety comes from blending in and hiding amongst others who are indistiguishable there can be a tendancy to ostracise or even gang up on people who appear other or different. whether they be part of a different tribe or group or gang, or whether they be individuals.
i find it hard interacting with people when it is not interaction amongst free and equal persons.
i find most people ostracise me as different because i don't want to be part of their pack.
elephants are group animals. but i think of them as... stately. and of course cats are social than many people think, they are just social more on their own terms... sniff. i imagine a puppy bouncing up to a cat being all friendly like or wanting to play would likely have a similar reception to a group of monkeys approaching an elephant.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 2:29:26
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 2:22:47
i was thinking about games a lot last year.
the games people play.
how some games are win-lose. zero sum games.
other games are such that by working together the overall reward is greater than the total of the zero sum game.
and so on...there is this picture in population health of a tall guy and a little guy trying to look over a fence.
equity is supposed to be giving the little guy a box to stand on so the guys are roughtly the same height and can look over the fence equally well.it's a stupid metaphor. but whatever. it's there. in population health 1010.
there was this health conference in NZ last year. there are videos of some of the talks / presentations.
there were some really nice mini talks.
one of the ones i liked was from a girl who has a disability (not sure what) and she... I don't know... does some sport. swimming? not sure..
anyhoo...
she was like...
maybe the best person on your team is on the sidelines because you won't even give her a change because you think she's disabled.
your star player could be sidelined because you insist she's disabled.
why are they looking over the fence for? who designed that stadium? why put a tall fence there? maybe you need more people's help when it comes to sensible stadium design.
why are they side-lined anyway? what game are they playing?
why do disabled people not get to pick the game?
there is this... ancient... thing about there being a finite...
lifeforce?
something similar.i think that sometimes leaders become invested in keeping their populations uneducated and unhealthy and unproductive and disabled... because they genuinely believe they are taking for themselves the lifeforce... vitality... wellness... of their people.
so any improvement in their people takes away from them.
people have invested in the oppression of others.
very very much in this part of the world.
Posted by Jadde on March 2, 2020, at 16:09:35
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 2:18:18
> Yes.
>
> I often feel like a cat in a world full of dogs.
>
> What is it about elephants that you resonate with?
>
> What is it about monkeys that you see in everyone else?Hmmm. Well, I feel the elephant struggles and struggles to get up that damn tree. She gives it all shes got for years and years. She tries, god she tries. She even accepts she may not make it all the way up. Certainly the powers that be would allow her that much. But no.
All the while, those freakin monkeys are scrambling quickly to the the top. Financially secure, in meaningful relationships (with other monkeys), successful, fulfilling careers. Even my siblings are monkeys. They say hey, why cant you just be like us? All it is is hard work, to climb that tree. Just do it!! You go girl!
Those monkeys forget to thank god they are not elephants.
Posted by Jadde on March 2, 2020, at 16:11:15
In reply to Re: Fair selection » alexandra_k, posted by Jadde on March 2, 2020, at 16:09:35
Other days arent so bad lol.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 21:40:32
In reply to Re: Fair selection » alexandra_k, posted by Jadde on March 2, 2020, at 16:09:35
Would you rather be doing something else?
I mean, maybe the elephant wants what the monkeys want.
But maybe the elephant is trying to be obliging, more than anything else. Trying to play the game, trying to fit in, but not really feeling it.
Would you rather be working towards something else?
What do you find meaningful, in life?
Posted by Jadde on March 3, 2020, at 14:04:18
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2020, at 21:40:32
> Would you rather be doing something else?
>Yes. But at my age (50 something) its a little too late to start my career over. Financially, I dont have many choices.
> I mean, maybe the elephant wants what the monkeys want.
Of course she does! She wants what the monkeys want and HAVE.
>
> But maybe the elephant is trying to be obliging, more than anything else. Trying to play the game, trying to fit in, but not really feeling it.Yes that.
>
> Would you rather be working towards something else?Yes.
>
> What do you find meaningful, in life?Family and dog. (Not necessarily in that order).
Thank you for playing along with my ridiculous metaphor. You would make a good therapist.
Jadde
Posted by alexandra_k on March 4, 2020, at 14:23:01
In reply to Re: Fair selection » alexandra_k, posted by Jadde on March 3, 2020, at 14:04:18
I think the age at which you can change your career trajectory depends.
From your perspective people are living healthier for longer. You could have many many years of productive working life left in you - especially if you are happy and healthy in what you do. Some people choose to continue working well beyond retirement age or 'retire' into charity or other volunteer work that pays them a wage to enable them to continue doing what they do.
I think that the people focused on controling all of the things are fairly invested in hiding just how many working years people actually do have in them... Full of weak excuses about why selection must occur early early early early so early so quick before any assessment of capacity was possible, even. So the issue really comes down to the perspective of others, often.
Will they let you?
Will they let you take a training place or a job that they would rather give to their kid or their grandkid or their family? Never mind about potential or about motivation people can be very invested in things being the way they want them to be for reasons that are supposed to be irrelevant. Making things worse for us all as everybody everybody everybody finds themself in a career trajectory they didn't want for themself because it was imposed on them by others who thought they knew best.
That's often the issue, really.
From my perspecitive, anyway. Sigh.
> Financially, I dont have many choices.Well, that sucks.
> Family and dog. (Not necessarily in that order).
What else? I mean, I understand those things are important to you, but what else is important to you?
> Thank you for playing along with my ridiculous metaphor. You would make a good therapist.Ahaha. I think 'good therapists' have been determined to be the kinds of therapists who understand 'quid pro quo' and 'it puts the lotion in the basket' in the service of their sick desires. Those who want to... Join them. Join them in the pursuit of getting away with things for as long as they possibly can. I mean - why else would anybody want to be a therapist -- right?
Sigh.
We don't have therapists in this country. We have people who run institutions where we can lock up people who haven't done anything wrong and see how they fail to thrive in the wicked places we designed for them.
I used to want to be a therapist. But then I realised we don't have any.
The people who are paid to do that are... Wanting to make things like chlorpromazine and date dape sedatives available to people feely for them to self-medicate their pain away. Oh, and of course medicate away teh pain of others. It's ingenious! Old medication. Generic. Cheap for the District Health Board to prescribe as a chemical straight jacket for outpatients in our communities. I mean... What you gotta do to have people happy (or at least not running away) from communal sleeping -- which is culturally appropriate -- right?
Sigh.
It is a sick sick sick sick nation that I'm stuck in.
I have only seen things get worse and worse and worse since my return.
Perhaps as I did the things I needed to do / did the things I was supposed to do and only really accumulated more and more and more and more evidence of the lengths they were willing to go to, the regulations they were willing to violate to ensure that I was kept locked out.
I firmly believe that increasing organisational complextity is the default developmental trajectory.
It is the wicknedness of people that obstructs and prevents development.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:34:41
In reply to Re: Fair selection » Jadde, posted by alexandra_k on March 4, 2020, at 14:23:01
I mean, let's see... I'm 40. That means I probably got another 40 years to go, I reckon.
How fit and healthy I am (how I cognitively function) depends.
If I keep up with physical exercise (pushing myself to improve on something for a while until I platau and then switchign things up)...
And I keep up with mental exercise (same thing again. actually working on things that are hard)...
Then I'll be alright.
It is when people give up that they decline, I think.
When people do the same thing over and over and over and over and over because it is habit or ritual or makes them feel good for comfortable or whatever.
If I do reading and writing and reading and writing and reading and writing as has been government sanctioned as okay for me to do... Then I'll likely live a much much shorter and much much unhealthier life. As they want me to do, of course.
Average life expectancy used to be around 40. People were pushed to do very hard physical labor that was repetitive and often in toxic conditions.
Many people are living to 100 these days. I suppose I'll likely live to 100.
I suppose I have around 40 years of working like left in me.
So maybe 20 (very very conservative) or 30 once my training is done.
Of course people don't want it to be so.
They want to grub grub grubbity grub grub grub all the money so they themselves can retire into a life of luxury when they are 40 or (oh dear about the economy) 50 years old.
They most certainly do NOT want people think that it is possible in any way, shape, or form, to JUST START OUT at that point.
It threatens to undermine their plan of freeriding off the back of others labor for the second half of their life.
That's the trouble with it.
Opression.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:42:59
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:34:41
Because you see, every now and then.
There was a news story. I don't remember what University. Some guy was 40 and then went to Medical School. After running his own orchard or something.
I suppose the situation, really, was he was rich. Or maybe his parents were Doctors. Or who the f*ck knows.
Point is he got to do Medical School.
And he actually didn't stand out overly much.
It is supposed to be impolite to ask people their age.
But you have to be fairly wealthy for people to treat you with any kind of politeness at all.
It is very very very very common here for people to ask you your age over and over and over and over and over. From the phone company to the bank to everything everything everything at all. All trying to tell you the trajectory your life is supposed to take. The milestones you are supposed to achieve and do. When you are supposed to marry. Have kids. Whether you are investing in short term savings or longer term savings. When it's time to take out a second mortgage on that rental property that will support you in your retirement...
Anway, he got to do Medical School. He's fit and healthy and cognitively active. He doesn't stand out as being all that much older.
(But that's a land of Medical Graduate Students rather than here, a land of Medical Teenagers where the majority of people selected to study Medicine are 19).
And then he got residency for Plastics someplace in California.
And... Why not?
What's the f*ck*ng problem?
People thinking that it's their kids birthright.
That's the problem.
Our attitude towards people (me) as disposable.
That's the problem.
Our relentless desire to force people to do things they don't want to do.
Because we are too stupid. Because we become invested in things being a certain way. Our stupid economists make predictions about things. About what jobs they want people to do and so on and so forth on the basis of predictions they make about things like when people will get married and about how many kids they wlil have.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:49:24
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:42:59
And we simply will not let education be for people who want an education.
For people who are prepared to work for it.
We simply will not offer the course in Philosophy with 5 primary texts for the semester so that the people who *actually want to study that* can study that.
Instead some people don't want to study that (5 primary texts is too much) and so nobody gets to study that.
And people are always full of weak and pathetic excuses about why nobody gets to study things like that, anymore.
And most things in the world are like that most of the world over. You got people controling things trying to force everyone to be the same...
Giving wonderful grades to people who don't do the work and who don't have the capacity to do the work. Refusing to educate, refusing to appropriatly reward those with the capacity and the motivation...
It's just people money grub grub grubbing grubby grub grub grub for their own short-term personal gain.
Doing their best to entrench it inter-generationally.
Ruining things, for us all.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:57:39
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:49:24
In New Zealand the 'Health Science' sort of 'Public Health' sort of 'Maori' pathway to medicine removes cell biology and biochemistry from the curriculum.
Cell biology... Let's see. That is stuff to do with the cell cycle. Which is important for cell replication. So important for things like undestanding of cancer and different targets for cancer care. Also stuff to do with different kinds of cells. Bacteria and human cells and even things like viruses. Again, so that you can understand things like anti-bacterials and anti-virals. To see how various things can target those without upsetting human cells. To think about how different medications (working on different mechanisms) will likely interact.
Biochemistry... Let's see. Metabolic pathways. Enzyme deficiencies.
Just so much stuff...
Probably 2/3 of the curriculum.
Taken out.
Or... The foundational / fundamental aspects.
The sort of pre-cursor aspects that everything else is based on.
So when stuff comes up later (as it will) they will feel like they don't have stuff... Like the crucial stuff has been... Withheld from them. In some way.
Actually, they'll be encouraged to believe they are stupid. Too stupid to follow along / understand.
How can we not be concerned about death magic when the people in charge of admissions and so on don't seem to be trying at all in the most basic of ways for things to be genuinely transparent and fair?
When they don't give their students freedom to take different things and make choices.
There is somethign in the hippocratic oath about teaching the children of doctors.
1) Intellectual heirs are not necessarily biological progeny. Of course you have a duty to help train the next generation. That doesn't mean your biological kid.
2) There has been no assessment of whether they want to learn or not. Awwwwww they want to do death magic? Awwwww they want to grubbity grub grub grub all the money and they can do a free medical degree?
Yeah. They nailed it.
This philosophy business.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 14:58:29
In reply to Re: Fair selection, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 13:57:39
they aren't retiring, either.
how old is Trump? Kerry?
I know, it's impolite to ask.
But people aren't retiring.
It was known for quite a while that retirement is mostly what seems to kill guys.
They live their lives often grumbling about their work.
Say they are looking forward to playing more golf when they retire...
But often they play just the right amount of golf when they are working their 3 jobs (gee, times are tough in New Zealand) and their main sense of meaning and purpose and value comes from their job.
Pomping about in their suit, feeling important.
Surrounded by brown-nosers and sychophants.
Even men in harder working and undervalued jobs. Police or whatever. Their job can become a huge part of who they are. Identity.
I guess we do hear of people transitioning well -- but it's hard. I guess if you have a wife then it really really tests the relationship.
But it's increasingly common for people to not let their jobs go *when they have a choice*.
Posted by Jadde on March 16, 2020, at 14:46:04
In reply to Re: retirement, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2020, at 14:58:29
> they aren't retiring, either.
>
> how old is Trump? Kerry?
>
> I know, it's impolite to ask.
>
> But people aren't retiring.
>
> It was known for quite a while that retirement is mostly what seems to kill guys.
>
> They live their lives often grumbling about their work.
>
> Say they are looking forward to playing more golf when they retire...
>
> But often they play just the right amount of golf when they are working their 3 jobs (gee, times are tough in New Zealand) and their main sense of meaning and purpose and value comes from their job.
>
> Pomping about in their suit, feeling important.
>
> Surrounded by brown-nosers and sychophants.
>
> Even men in harder working and undervalued jobs. Police or whatever. Their job can become a huge part of who they are. Identity.
>
> I guess we do hear of people transitioning well -- but it's hard. I guess if you have a wife then it really really tests the relationship.
>
> But it's increasingly common for people to not let their jobs go *when they have a choice*.
>
>I totally get it. If I spend one day in my apartment without going out I start to feel the disconnect from other people, and depressive symptoms start to creep up. I need to feel useful and productive to feel fulfilled. Even taking my dog for a walk at a local track helps.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 21, 2020, at 18:58:45
In reply to Re: retirement » alexandra_k, posted by Jadde on March 16, 2020, at 14:46:04
> If I spend one day in my apartment without going out I start to feel the disconnect from other people, and depressive symptoms start to creep up.
I had to get over that. Accept that there is no reason to get out, here. Unless it is to get supplied. Groceries for a few days.
There isn't anything out there to go out to / for.
> I need to feel useful and productive to feel fulfilled.
Yes, I think everyone does.
> Even taking my dog for a walk at a local track helps.
Yeah. I guess that's a good reason to have a pet. Or kids, even. Because one wants to feel helpful and useful. Because one has the resources to contribute to another's well-being.
I wanted to be a Doctor. Because I did liked the people I was with enough to wish that they lived healthier. Because I wanted to live healthier. Because I wanted to be able to help them and people like them and myself. Not help myself to them, but help them help themself.
But because I didn't want to join them in helping myself to people like me they decided to try and ruin me, instead.
The sort of modern-day equivalent of getting together and throwing rocks at me.
It has been made clear there will only be justice for me in the courts. It has been made clear that there is an injustice. Who is going to stop us? It has been made clear that they can force me to do this with my life trajectory. Why wouldn't you -- if you thought you could get away with it?
Why not take money from graduate students and then simply refuse to process their stuff? Refuse to examine their thesis. Refuse to give them the Degree. Bully and harrass them into going away with nothing. Then publish the work yourself or sell it to another student? Why wouldn't you do that? I mean that's what life is about -- yeah?
I feel that I am going insane dealing with people who are like 'but the examiners didn't say they had to give you the Degree' and they are incapable of comprehending that they don't have to say they have to give me the Degree. Years and years and years and years of multiple choice. Of selecting the answer that is the best fit. Then the most basic of reading comprehension fail from University administration as they think they have the freedom to go 'not ''a'' therefore any of the options we choose!'. They think there is a greyness for them to choose to profit themself at the expense of the fiduciary. They think they are so very *clever* in knowing that they can do whatever they want (the rules don't apply) because they are so very *clever* in working that out.
But it's clear to me that what they are doing is corrupt. Profiting themselves at the expense of the people they were paid to look after.
I think our international students might like to know *before* enroling that administrators don't think they are required to send a submitted thesis out for examination at all. They won't send it out until maximum fees have been obtained (until you have taken more than 2 x the time it was supposed to take). The examiners will find 1 typograpical error between them at least The Univesrity thinks that justifies them failing the studnet.
THe way around it?
TO spend all your time all your day brownnosing and sucking up. Lots of publicity. Let all the studnets know how long you have been there. For how many years you have been working. Be all 'yeah that's totally great' about everyone elses work and maybe they'll start saying those things about you. Then everyone needs to start up with 'you haven't signed them off yet?' And then you be like 'yeah, I'm really worried that they aren't going to'. Until they realise that other people are starting to feel concerned that they aren't signing students off... Then they feel they have to.
That's the process. Brownnosing.
It isnt' about the work -- at all.
If you do the work they only become invested in stealing it.
I guess it's the same with Medical students / doctors in these parts. People want the titles and honors while seeing no patients and by having 25 per cent pay increases most years for ensuring that no doctors are hired on their watch.
Things are very corrupt here.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 21, 2020, at 19:01:01
In reply to Re: retirement, posted by alexandra_k on March 21, 2020, at 18:58:45
That's why they had to be shut down.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 21, 2020, at 19:06:30
In reply to Re: retirement, posted by alexandra_k on March 21, 2020, at 19:01:01
They didn't self-regulate. They were all like 'make us stop. And so CoronaVirus meant considerably less international students enroled.
Will they send the international students work out for examination if they submit it on time? We have international students working on graduate research from China.
They likely won't send it out in time.
Know what they told me when I posted them a thesis from Dunedin?
They told me it didn't count as submitted because I needed to submit it *in person*.
That isn't a rule to be found anywhere.
They have meetings over the course of the week about why a thesis submitted for examination doesn't have to go out for examination.
- You didn't submit it in person
- Your supervisor was having attachment issues screaming hissy fits of tantrums about how you weren't done yet and you don't get to submit a thesis for examination without her permissionAnd so on...
'Make us'.
Was the verdict.
'We dont' have to do the job for which we are paid!'
'Make us'.
It is unclear to me whether we have a fit-for-purpose judiciary.
I tried to get legal assistance and the legal assistance only turns it on / against you in a heavy handed way. Tryign to squash it out of you so it doesn't get to the courts.
Like the doctor or the respirator that is the repository for CoronaVirus, I guess.
Those paid to 'help' are those who do most harm.
That's the way of it in upside-down-and-back-to-front land. I guess that's why people didn't want me to get to study medicine. The only thing they understand is Dr Death situation of people taking advantage of them if they can get away with it. And of course they can get away with it. Who is going to stop them?
This is the end of the thread.
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