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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on October 31, 2010, at 23:10:10
I find myself tongue-tied all the time now - in and out of therapy. I don't know if I am spending too much time alone, or if the burdens of running a business in a world that doesn't value children and families is taking this toll. I don't feel...anything really. I know I've slid back into a depression but this is sort of wordless tomb. I seem to have forgotten how to talk.
One of the challenges this brings is the inability to talk to my therapist. He is willing to sit in the silence but it isn't a connective, productive silence. It feels like I'm scrambling around in my head, trying to find a subject that comes complete with a narrative. He said he finds himself asking questions when he should probably be quiet, but the depth of my wordless distress is hard for him too. I feel like Dinah - I don't want to hear that. It makes it worse that I'm making him feel bad too.
So tomorrow I have a session. Ironically, I actually have a touch of laryngitis, (Freud would have a field day with that). I've picked up and put down the phone twice to cancel. I know that I should go and tell him this - again. But it makes my stomach hurt to think of just sitting there again. I really need some help and suggestions.
Posted by pegasus on November 1, 2010, at 11:45:39
In reply to Wordlessness, posted by Daisym on October 31, 2010, at 23:10:10
Oh, Daisy, that sounds extremely painful. For what it's worth, I'm glad that you are at least aware that this seems to be a depression, in a new, distressing form.
I wish I had some suggestions for you, but I don't think I do. Here's what comes immediately to mind:
Can you take your post in and read that to him? I'm thinking that at least it's something, even if it's stuff you've said before to him.
Or do you think you could try to put a few words to what's happening when you stop trying to scramble around in your head? The wordless tomb? But, I guess, if it's wordless, then that must be hard to do. Although, the words "wordless tomb" seem very powerful and descriptive to me.
I used to do art therapy, which was wonderful at times like this. I could get out the dark paints, and slowly make a swirling mess. Or paint the whole page solid black. Somehow that seemed to help, although I couldn't explain how.
I hope you find a way out of the tomb. Thank you for posting here and asking for support. And for going in to see your T. I hope you can feel his support, even if you also feel bad about making him feel bad. I know he would want you to be there, regardless. In other words, I suspect that you wouldn't be helping him, or yourself, if you don't go.
- P
Posted by sigismund on November 1, 2010, at 14:33:23
In reply to Re: Wordlessness, posted by pegasus on November 1, 2010, at 11:45:39
I can remember sitting through two consecutive hours of complete and horrible silence.
I had no idea of how to get out of it or speed it up and still don't all this time later.
Mine was different no doubt and perhaps these days I would head it off at the pass with some appropriate communication and by having less of a desire to win or at least come out even (shall we say).
I suppose distress is a little better and easier to negotiate than distress mixed with hostility and feelings of doom and engulfment.
We're a fun species.
Posted by Annierose on November 1, 2010, at 21:21:34
In reply to Wordlessness, posted by Daisym on October 31, 2010, at 23:10:10
I think the depression can express itself in wordlessness. Afterall, for some of us (I guess I'm speaking about myself - so forgive me) when I am lost in the depresseion, I feel unreachable, lost, hopeless, alone and that no one could/can understand ... and the fog is confusing, fuzzy and not clearly defined. Therefore - words do not come easily for me either. And as I sit there, and the clock ticks away seconds, my anxiety increases as I'm wasting the precious minutes I have with my therapist each week. My thoughts are fleeing as I'm trying to grasp something, just something to talk about but nothing seems important or complete.
I guess this isn't advice. But I know that feeling too.
My t will let me sit with the silence for a few minutes. Sometimes she will ask in differing ways what the silence is saying, or what the silence feels like, or what thoughts am I having about being quiet, or if it's a peaceful silence or aggitating one ... for me ... it's a tough feeling to crack. I want to hold onto the silence so I often do not answer her questions unless I force myself to.
Do you want to hold onto the silence too?
I hope you went to your session today. I think like anything that comes forward in therapy, the silence has a lot to say. Maybe for now it's sitting silent making sure it's safe to explore further with your t.
Posted by lucielu2 on November 1, 2010, at 21:27:28
In reply to Wordlessness, posted by Daisym on October 31, 2010, at 23:10:10
Daisy, that does sound like a type of depression. I think I have felt something like what you are feeling. There have been times in my therapy where I have felt lost in time and space, as you say, in some sort of wordless distress. The loss of connection seemed so profound, it didn't seem reasonable to even look for it, if that makes any sense. In order to keep the dialogue going, so to speak, during those times I usually would try to write about something and bring it in. Sometimes I would just paint and bring that in. I would just bring in things and not try so hard to speak or work during the therapy hour, because I knew that would be counterproductive. For me, those spells have always resolved with time. One interesting observation I have made is that after I've "returned," it is as if some work was being done in my right brain while I was "away." Usually this has opened up a new area for me. I don't know if this is the case for you, but sometimes this can be a sign of change in the wind. Could things be changing in your life or therapy somehow and maybe you haven't connected all the dots yet?
> I find myself tongue-tied all the time now - in and out of therapy. I don't know if I am spending too much time alone, or if the burdens of running a business in a world that doesn't value children and families is taking this toll. I don't feel...anything really. I know I've slid back into a depression but this is sort of wordless tomb. I seem to have forgotten how to talk.
>
> One of the challenges this brings is the inability to talk to my therapist. He is willing to sit in the silence but it isn't a connective, productive silence. It feels like I'm scrambling around in my head, trying to find a subject that comes complete with a narrative. He said he finds himself asking questions when he should probably be quiet, but the depth of my wordless distress is hard for him too. I feel like Dinah - I don't want to hear that. It makes it worse that I'm making him feel bad too.
>
> So tomorrow I have a session. Ironically, I actually have a touch of laryngitis, (Freud would have a field day with that). I've picked up and put down the phone twice to cancel. I know that I should go and tell him this - again. But it makes my stomach hurt to think of just sitting there again. I really need some help and suggestions.
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 1, 2010, at 21:42:40
In reply to Re: Wordlessness » Daisym, posted by lucielu2 on November 1, 2010, at 21:27:28
It always helped me to write down what I wanted to talk about. If I wasn't sure what I wanted to talk about, I would write that down to talk about. If I felt trapped in silence, I would write that down to talk about. Maybe you could do this and read it to him. Or if reading it to him feels to hard, you could hand him the paper and let him read it himself. Fortunately, my p-doc tends to fill in awkward silences by asking me questions. But if you're not up to answering questions, that may not help.
Posted by Daisym on November 1, 2010, at 23:41:48
In reply to Re: Wordlessness » Daisym, posted by lucielu2 on November 1, 2010, at 21:27:28
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I wish I had the opportunity to do some art therapy; perhaps the wordless feelings would reveal themselves.
I took my post and told my therapist today that I didn't want to come but knew I should. He is wondering if this is a state that I was often in when I was younger - inarticulate, not daring to speak of any of this and far away from my feelings. Makes sense but it is still pretty awful. Plus two weeks ago he stepped on a land-mine - he asked a question that named a large fear that I've always had and I freaked out. Seriously and completely freaked out during the session - but laughably I said, "hang on - I need a minute, I can't exactly breathe." Because that is just me - "excuse me, I'm going to faint but I'll try not to inconvenience you..." I know we need to go back and talk about this but I can't seem to go there.
There are lots of changes going on right now for me, both in and out of my control. So I'll think more about that. I had a heath challenge and maybe that plays into this too. (I'm fine though.)
And I like the suggestion of writing but one of the distressing things about this is my words have fled my fingers too. And not writing for a writer is like a mini-death - like some piece of me has gone missing.
And yet I can - and I want - to post here. I'll have to think on this. I'm glad I still can.
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2010, at 1:15:23
In reply to Re: Wordlessness, posted by Daisym on November 1, 2010, at 23:41:48
I don't think wordlessness has ever been an issue in my therapy. I don't tolerate silence in the therapy room well.
But I have my own ways of pulling back and not connecting.
Have you tried radical acceptance? Instead of fighting the wordlessness, embrace it as what *is* at this moment, while recognizing that this moment will not last forever? I'm not terribly good at it myself, since I have trouble seeing that this moment is not eternity. But it's something my therapist tries to get me to do.
Alternately, we had a practice during the period where neither of us were at our best of sitting in deliberate silence for a few minutes at the beginning of the session. As a way of bringing ourselves fully to the room. It always seemed to me to be something between meditation and prayer.
Posted by lucielu2 on November 3, 2010, at 8:25:25
In reply to Re: Wordlessness » Daisym, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2010, at 1:15:23
Daisy, I wonder if some of these feelings and the wordlessness are related to your recently finishing your thesis? When I finished mine, I remember experiencing on some level: confusion, lack of purpose, letdown, lack of energy and connection, even some tearfulness - all in addition to happy feelings. Sort of a post-partum reaction, minus the hormones. I know many people who have reacted similarly. Completing a thesis is an experience like no other. You pour everything you have into it, and I think the process can stir things up inside that do not become apparent until later. The whole thing, from preparation to defense, was one of the most intense experiences of my life. It changes you, you are never the same afterwards because the things you have thought and written about have become engraved on your soul. I dreamed about mine incessantly when I was writing it, and even now, after many years, I can still remember references from it and what my thoughts were as I wrote it. This is why the process can set you up for a crash or letdown afterwards. Not everyone feels it, but I did and so have a lot of my friends.
L.
Posted by pegasus on November 3, 2010, at 14:49:54
In reply to Re: Wordlessness, posted by lucielu2 on November 3, 2010, at 8:25:25
Interesting thought, lucie. I experienced that too. I was really glad to be finished, adn proud of myself. But also, the whole experience of finishing was very unsettling. I was in a field that tends to be male-dominated and (therefore?) confrontational, so the whole defense and process of revising my dissertation seemed unnecesarily grueling and unsupportive. What's a stronger word that unsupportive? It felt like being hazed. So, then I went through a long period in which I was also quite depressed. Come to think of it, it wasn't long after that that I finally got myself into good long term therapy.
Does this fit at all, Daisy?
If not, then I think it sounds very feasible that this could be part of the aftermath of the incident in therapy where you freaked out when he touched on that ultra-sensitive spot. It sounds like maybe you are not wanting to share what that issue was. And yet, I want to say that if it would be helpful, then you have friends here who would like to listen and offer support. I mean . . . of course, I want to offer support regardless of whether you need anyone to listen.
- P
Posted by Daisym on November 3, 2010, at 23:42:50
In reply to Re: Wordlessness » lucielu2, posted by pegasus on November 3, 2010, at 14:49:54
Crashing after finishing fits somewhat but it ties into the overall theme of never being good enough. No matter what degree, no matter what my job, it all feels like "making up" for all the bad stuff I've done. And I guess every time I bump into this I feel like nothing will ever be enough.
What my therapist said was, "did you think she hated you?"
Meaning my mother. Because I needed her. And it is an impossibly hard issue because she really did hate me needing her. And she probably hated all that was happening in our house - which was tied to me. And she hated anything that had the potential to embarrass her publicly. And a big part of me believes she had good reason to hate me.
So naming this fear feels so dangerous. What if it gets confirmed? Or what if my therapist sees and believes what I think my mom saw and believed...will he hate me too? I mean, if your mom can't help but hate you, why wouldn't everyone? So I clamp down - shutting off the need to defend myself, being careful about saying the wrong thing. "I can neither confirm or deny this hate..."
So I can write all of this. But I absolute can't talk about it. No one is supposed to know about her hate - especially me.
Posted by annierose on November 4, 2010, at 7:04:55
In reply to Re: Wordlessness, posted by Daisym on November 3, 2010, at 23:42:50
Who your mother hated was herself. And who you might feel angry towards is your mother for not protecting you. It is such a huge hurt. And one that you will work on ever so slowly with your t. No wonder you worry about needing people, needing your t, and what that stirs up for them. You came about that honestly. Of course you know intellectually that children really do need their parents, it is so difficult to reconcile emotionally that our mothers did not have the capacity to love and parent and be there for us in the way that was expected of them. They failed us. We didn't fail them.
Recently I e-mailed my t with something I had a hard time telling her in session. Although she responded kindly and thoughtfully, she of course held off on continuing the conversation until we met. But it opened the dialouge ... ouch.
Posted by pegasus on November 4, 2010, at 11:20:09
In reply to Re: Wordlessness, posted by Daisym on November 3, 2010, at 23:42:50
Ah, yes. The freak out and the pain and the depression and especially the wordlessness make sense to me in light of this. How can there be words to process such a fear?
*I* am angry at your mother for giving you this fear. You should not have to carry it.
For what it's worth, it is crystal clear to me that you are "good enough" and vastly more, in myriad ways. And while I have never met you in person, I know you well enough to say that with great confidence, after all these years. I think some of us here know some parts of you better than your mother ever did/could.
- P
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