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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
In reply to Now I feel very bad for bringing it up, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
I hope I will be able to express this thought without being considered uncivil. I THINK, though I'm not sure, that Dinah may be talking about the situation of having a very competent intellect, which can solve whatever *adult* problems present themselves, and possessing also a lot of emotional depth and range, which she has had, sort of unchanged, since she was a child. Probably, at the core, these feelings are very important to her, and they may also be largely non-verbal. She probably feels her statement has more meaning, to her, if she keeps it that way.
MissK seems to be approaching Dinah's comment, which I think she purposely wanted to leave ambiguous, with an intense need to get every bit of meaning into words, going so far as to quote the dictionary.
It's a shame for anyone to feel bad by what just occurred. One way of looking at the exchange is to note that it gives MissK an opportunity to explore the world of unexpressed feelings and ambiguities, where of necessity things are not all nailed down. And Dinah might want to explore ways to share a bit more of her rich inner world in ways which others can understand and enjoy.
There! Did I make it?
Posted by Phillipa on April 23, 2008, at 23:00:28
In reply to a collision of verbal styles?, posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
In my opinion you made it twinleaf. Love Phillipa a person themselves only knows how they feel as they are inside their owns shoes and skin. Feelings are feeling right?
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 5:36:55
In reply to Re: Now I feel very bad for bringing it up Dinah, posted by rskontos on April 23, 2008, at 22:28:25
>Don't feel bad about not being able to describe how you feel
Phillipa >a person themselves only knows how they feel
I am not asking her what she feels, I am asking what she means when she repeatedly uses the word grown-up. If it doesn't mean adult or being mature or no longer childish, then what does it mean is what I am asking.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 5:46:01
In reply to a collision of verbal styles?, posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
> THINK, though I'm not sure, that Dinah may be talking about
Dinah's said she knows precisely what she means. If she does, then there is no need for anyone to guess or hypothosize what she means.
Call me whacky, but I think a discussion about a problem or issue goes better and gets better if we actually know what we are talking about.
Posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 7:24:54
In reply to Re: a collision of verbal styles? » twinleaf, posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 5:46:01
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I would have much preferred it if Dinah had continued with the topic she introduced, and had been willing to describe what it is like for her to feel, in part, not grown up. I was saying that I think the reason she didn't do that may be because these feelings are instinctive. She knows, by instinct, exactly what they are, but she may never have verbalized them completely, or perhaps even not much at all. They remain in the realm of unverbalized knowing- the kind of knowing you can only communicate face to face, as she does with her family and therapist.
My point was that the kind of knowing she is talking about would look (to her) very diminished and approximate if she tried to reduce it to just words. But for the rest of us on this forum, words are all we have, so we- I'm with you here- would have liked to have Dinah's thoughts in words, even though they might be only a rough reflection of the reality she is talking about.
I guess my point to you was that so much of communication in real life is in fact non-verbal, and that we all have to coexist with
so many things which are instinctive, implicit and ambiguous. Some say 95% of face-to-face communication is like that.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 8:59:34
In reply to verbal and non-verbal... » MissK, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 7:24:54
>the topic she introduced, and had been willing to describe what it is like for her to feel, in part, not grown up
Well, okay. I am not asking her though what it is like to feel no grown-up. I am NOT asking her what she feels. I am asking what she means when she says and uses the word grown-up.
Apparently, her definition or meaning of grown-up is not the same as the dictionary definition of grown-up. I want to know then what is her definition.
She said she knows precisely what she means when she says it.
And unless you also know precisely what she means, then I do not think you know anymore than anyone else here what she is talking in using the work because she's not said what she means when using it.
Of course, some people like hazy and vague and discombobulated definitions. They are welcome to them, but at what point do their words and what they write and say become meaningless and untrue then if the proper meaning of a word no longer applies or only applies when you feel like it?
So, again, if the word grown-up doesn't mean an adult, a mature person or no longer childish, then I ask what does it mean. In this case, I am asking Dinah what it means to her, not what you think it means for her.
Dinah's responded she knows precisely what it means for her. So, I await the definition of what it means for her along with everyone else here if she cares to share it.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 9:06:37
In reply to Re: verbal and non-verbal... » twinleaf, posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 8:59:34
(the same, with some grammar corrections)
>the topic she introduced, and had been willing to describe what it is like for her to feel, in part, not grown upWell, okay. I am not asking her though what it is like to feel not grown-up. I am NOT asking her what she feels. I am asking what she means when she says and uses the word grown-up.
Apparently, her definition or meaning of grown-up is not the same as the dictionary definition of grown-up. I want to know then what is her definition.
She said she knows precisely what she means when she says it.
And unless you also know precisely what she means, then I do not think you know anymore than anyone else here what she is talking about in using the word because she's not said what she means when using it.
Of course, some people like hazy and vague and discombobulated definitions. They are welcome to them, but at what point do their words and what they write and say become meaningless and untrue then if the proper meaning of a word no longer applies or only applies when you feel like it?
So, again, if the word grown-up doesn't mean an adult, a mature person or no longer childish, then I ask what does it mean. In this case, I am asking Dinah what it means to her, not what you think it means for her.
Dinah's responded she knows precisely what it means for her. So, I await the definition of what it means for her along with everyone else here if she cares to share it.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 11:10:54
In reply to a collision of verbal styles?, posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
I think you're right that my knowing what I mean is in large part nonverbal. Thank you for putting that into words for me.
I'm not averse to exploring it indirectly in a safe and respectful environment. But I can't *define* it. I am poor at defining things in general, or at explaining things in different ways. It is, as I stated before, a longstanding frustration to me that my brain won't always do what I'd like it to do.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 11:24:07
In reply to Re: verbal and non-verbal... » twinleaf, posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 8:59:34
You have asked several times for something I have already said I cannot give. Whether or not you believe I cannot give it, asking me again will not change the outcome. I'm just feeling more and more frustrated and upset. Perhaps you are as well. I will not presume to guess.
Posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 17:37:55
In reply to Re: a collision of verbal styles? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 11:10:54
I put an extremely high value on this, as I feel you do, too. Every little while in my own therapy, something very powerful and moving happens between me and *him*. We may or may not put it into words, afterwards, but the memory of the feelings, and the sudden, although perhaps slight, opening towards new ways of feeling are the by far, far the most wonderful things that happen in my therapy- I think. I would never suppose that they can be completely understood and contained by words- the words are sort of pale, incomplete versions of an ineffable (to borrow your word) experience.
You wouldn't be you without the ongoing non-verbal experiences that lend color and meaning to your life. You shouldn't ever get near an apology for that!
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 17:39:39
In reply to Re: verbal and non-verbal... » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 11:24:07
>I'm just feeling more and more frustrated and upset.
I would ask frustrated and upset with what, but I think that would just frustrate and upset you even more.
No, I won't ask again what you mean when you use the word grown-up despite you saying you know precisely what you mean. You don't have to tell me or anyone even if you could explain what you mean.
>Perhaps you are as well.
No, I am not frustrated, upset, distressed or mad. I just find it too bad that you can't tell me what you mean when you say the word grown-up. If I did know what you mean, then maybe I could offer some advice or help with whatever your issue is. Because I don't, then anything I say or suggest is kind of like grasping at straws.
However, some seem to understand you better so I hope talking to them helps you.
Posted by AbbieNormal on April 24, 2008, at 17:49:31
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:37:22
but I'm not telling, just for fun. :-P
Hugs,
Abbie
Posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 18:13:31
In reply to Re: a collision of verbal styles? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 11:10:54
It makes me feel sad when you seem to blame yourself for not being "able to explain things well'. My experience over the last few years is that you are unusually gifted at explicating all kinds of complex points, and identifying subtle differences in various thoughts and situations.
But if we are talking about non-verbal, instinctive, implicit knowing, we are talking about our right hemispheres, which can detect minute differences in feeling and expression (in ourselves and others), but have VERY few words to describe the richness and complexity of the experiences we are undergoing. I have found that, even though I do try to bring in my left hemisphere, the wonder and mystery of what happens at times in therapy gets kind of down-sized when I try to put it into words. Just to get away from the therapist-client model for a moment, other similiar "peak" wordless experiences can include listening to beautiful music, seeing truly beautiful views in the countryside, feeling in harmony with a friend you care a lot about, climbing a tremendously hard mountain, making love well, giving birth to a child and looking into that little face for the first time- as well as many, many others great things which I would need other posters' help to fill in properly.
I think my experience with the analyst I have now has increased my understanding of non-verbal processing tremendously, so... I just wanted to stick up for it- and the importance of its presence in us all!
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 18:32:33
In reply to definitions... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 18:13:31
Thank you Twinleaf, for both this post and your previous one. I do appreciate the value of nonverbal knowing, and nonverbal communication as well.
And perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on myself for not being able to explain those things well.
But I really do have an inability to explain things in different ways or to define things even if I know how to use them in context. It was a source of annoyance to my friends in school, who eventually gave up asking me for help. And the people at my office ask for help but add "But not from Dinah!". My husband finds it amusing, and among friends it can be funny. We laugh that my brain is not random access. He knows me well enough that he can sort of jog me forward without upsetting me. My therapist has gotten pretty good at getting me unstuck too.
But maybe I should separate that knowledge about myself from the question of making nonverbal knowledge verbal, and not feel as bad about the latter.
Posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 18:53:41
In reply to Re: definitions... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 18:32:33
.....everyone who cares about you would miss it terribly. The mysterious, never-boring Dinah who has all these rich, complex and wordless experiences that other people probably draw strength and meaning from, without knowing what is actually happening, or perhaps even where it is coming from.
Since I have so luckily fallen in with an analyst who works as much as possible in an implicit mode, I'm willing to lend him to you for one week (three sessions), as long as you don't steal him away from me! That's to help you respect your implicit, non-verbal side- but NO STEALING!
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 19:01:42
In reply to but if you didn't have it... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 18:53:41
Thank you for that offer! I know what the loan of a therapist means. :)
I don't know that it comes naturally to my therapist but he's certainly gotten used to it over the years, and makes me feel quite comfortable.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 19:01:59
In reply to I know EXACTLY what you mean! » Dinah, posted by AbbieNormal on April 24, 2008, at 17:49:31
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 19:06:11
In reply to Re: verbal and non-verbal... » Dinah, posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 17:39:39
I appreciate your desire to offer me help.
But as you say, there are many here who know me well enough to help me very well, even if they might not understand every thing I say.
I think you can feel confident in leaving help and advice to me in their capable hands when you aren't sure what I'm trying to convey.
Posted by seldomseen on April 24, 2008, at 20:15:39
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 21:44:48
is just full of idiomatic expressions and words whose meaning can be quite personal, contextual and not captured well in translation. It just seems that meaning is either simultaneously universal and/or private.
For example a few idioms:
Beating a dead horse.
Making a mountain out of a molehill
Splitting hairs
Not seeing the forest for the trees.Are all wonderful examples I think. If taken literally, they usually make no sense.
I think what we discovered here is a dinah idiom.
Cool!Seldom
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 20:48:45
In reply to The English Language, posted by seldomseen on April 24, 2008, at 20:15:39
Dinah idiom.
I like it. :) I'll have to share that with my therapist.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 22:56:06
In reply to Re: verbal and non-verbal... » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 19:06:11
> when you aren't sure what I'm trying to convey.
Hmmm, well from what I've gathered with what you've squeaked out and with what you have agreed with others trying to help you out in what you mean exactly, maybe, possibly (and who are also trying to tell me), is that the word and definition of grown-up for you goes beyond the silly dictionary defintion of an adult or being mature/unchildish to meaning something deeply non-verbal, almost meta-physical in its connotation and practically mystical to the senses in the experience of trying to pin it down and define it, that the word and meaning of grown-up is just so much that ineffable it defies explanation or description for you at this time. Yet, somewhere in all that muteness you know precisely what it does mean and it's just that you cannot come up with the words.
Am I following the understandings going around so far?
You know, if you ever are able to capture the seeming immensity of the meaning and word grown-up for yourself, I really would love to hear it.
In the meantime, I am sure, as you said, you will get plenty of help with that struggle for definition of grown-up from those who understand you better.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 26, 2008, at 0:23:44
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me, posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 21:24:30
> you should probably think more on what you mean before you say something.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel put down, could you please rephrase that?
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person. And Dinah, I'm sorry if you felt hurt.
I encourage anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, to see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by MissK on April 26, 2008, at 12:30:24
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » MissK, posted by Dr. Bob on April 26, 2008, at 0:23:44
Posted by 64bowtie on April 27, 2008, at 2:47:52
In reply to There are grownups younger than me, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 12:11:09
>>> I really don't know why this has been upsetting me for days now. But it has.
<<< Czek out your obligations and expectations... Lets say, others expect you to take care of them, thus obligating you to their expectations of you... This may be the picture you carry in your head of what a mature (grownup) is supposed to look like; obligated to help, and knowing how to do it...
So, younger folks not caring for anyone, but with the trappings of a successful life, leaves you upset at your missed (phantom)opportunities... Then, you might find your obligations toooo confining and desire instead to have fun and be free; internal conflictedness with no end in sight...
This sounds like the allegory of my life and why I feel I can talk to you about it... We don't have to have identicle stories to have empathy for each other's plight, now do we???
Rod
PS: This is more of my (discovered) baggage, now in my distant past... Being the middle child, the role of "enabler/placater" fits only toooo well... If I remember, you are the oldest child, tasked with being the grownup way toooo early in your life... Around here, we appreciate your acquired abilities, but still cheer you on to an even better existence...
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2008, at 12:29:15
In reply to Noted (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by MissK on April 26, 2008, at 12:30:24
> Noted
Thanks, but since you didn't rephrase what you posted before, I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
I encourage anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, to see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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