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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 18:30:09
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 23, 2008, at 16:14:15
I think it's more about not wanting that for myself, and being forced into something I don't want purely by virtue of advancing age.
Or possibly
"Or about wondering if there will be a confident, older authority figure left for you as the "grownups" get younger?"
That might have some validity. :)
I always worried about getting married in some ways, because I *liked* being a daughter. I still do really.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 18:31:29
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 23, 2008, at 13:27:11
Give your body time. It takes time to recover from things like surgery.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 18:37:49
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by fleeting flutterby on April 23, 2008, at 13:26:01
I do wish I was more socially ept. I so admire those people who move with social grace and confidence. While I blunder about like a rhinoceros in a gift shop.
But in general, being grownup is a bad thing in my eyes. Not for everyone of course. Some people like that sort of thing, and I'd just as soon leave it to them.
My therapist is five years older than I am, and when I started seeing him he was well younger than I am now. I ask him sometimes how he felt about being looked to as a parental figure, and whether he felt like a fraud. But he's one of those people who apparently likes that sort of thing.
Posted by crushedout on April 23, 2008, at 18:59:08
In reply to There are grownups younger than me, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 12:11:09
I get upset about the same thing all the time. I also worry that little kids are going to have their sh*t figured out before I get mine figured out. I.e., they will be grown up before I am.I can sympathize.
Posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 19:00:37
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 18:25:59
That's my point. Grown-up is what children say to describe adults.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 19:04:35
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 19:00:37
I don't *mean* mature, so I can't substitute.
That's all I meant to say.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 19:07:12
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by crushedout on April 23, 2008, at 18:59:08
Do you want to grow up? I have this fear that it will happen to me without my permission. :) I can't quite imagine wanting it to happen.
Posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 19:20:04
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 19:04:35
>I don't *mean* mature, so I can't substitute.
What do you mean then?
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 19:33:51
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me, posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 19:20:04
Perhaps it's a term with idiosyncratic meaning to myself. It wouldn't be the first.
But there's no way to know unless I use it around people who don't know me as well as my husband or therapist do. They always know what I'm talking about, so I assume others will as well. Maybe I forget how long it took them to figure it out.
Unfortunately, if I ever knew how to explain it for non-Dinah ears, I've apparently forgotten that too. All that springs to mind is "You know... Grown Up." Which I suppose isn't that helpful.
But when I think of people who are grown up, they aren't necessarily mature. And some mature people I know aren't necessarily grown up. So I know it's not a synonym.
Posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 20:05:17
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 19:33:51
>it's a term with idiosyncratic meaning to myself
Well, you seem to have a good vocabulary - why not explain what the meaning of grown-up is for yourself.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 20:09:14
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » Dinah, posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 20:05:17
> >it's a term with idiosyncratic meaning to myself
>
> Well, you seem to have a good vocabulary - why not explain what the meaning of grown-up is for yourself.Why thank you. But there is no point in trying to explain the ineffable.
And definitions have never been my strong point in any case.
Posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 21:24:30
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 20:09:14
>But there is no point in trying to explain the ineffable.
Really, the word grown-up is indescribable for you.
>And definitions have never been my strong point in any case.
Well, could I suggest in future you should probably think more on what you mean before you say something.
How can we talk about something that doesn't mean what you say, and what it does mean, you can't say.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:37:22
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me, posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 21:24:30
> Well, could I suggest in future you should probably think more on what you mean before you say something.
>
> How can we talk about something that doesn't mean what you say, and what it does mean, you can't say.But *I* know precisely what I mean. I'm not sure how I could decide, before posting, not to post something because you will not understand, when I have no way of knowing whether you will understand until I have posted and you have told me you do not understand.
I'm sorry I can't explain it in such a way that we are able to have a fruitful exchange. My inability with definitions is a longstanding source of frustration and distress to me. I am sorry that it has caused distress to you as well.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
In reply to There are grownups younger than me, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 12:11:09
I guess it's something I should only discuss with my therapist. It was something that was important to me, even though I recognized the ridiculousness of what I was feeling.
Now I just feel frustrated and bad for being idiosyncratic and weird.
Posted by MissK on April 23, 2008, at 21:44:48
In reply to Re: There are grownups younger than me » MissK, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:37:22
>But *I* know precisely what I mean
Then tell us precisely what you mean. Truly, we are going in circles.
Here, if this helps - here is the dictionary definition of grown-up:
Main Entry: 1grownup
Pronunciation: \ˈgrōn-ˌəp\
Function: adjective
Date: 1633
1 : not childish or immature : adult
2 : of, for, or characteristic of adults <insisted on wearing grownup clothes>noun
Date: 1813
: adult2 : of, for, or characteristic of adults <insisted on wearing grownup clothes>
Posted by Phillipa on April 23, 2008, at 22:14:14
In reply to Now I feel very bad for bringing it up, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
Dinah you are a very valuable and beautiful person from what I hear in your posts. Love Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on April 23, 2008, at 22:28:25
In reply to Re: Now I feel very bad for bringing it up » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 23, 2008, at 22:14:14
Dinah, if you were to get into a child's head when they say grownup they mean bigger person that can do stuff they can't do. Like stay up later than they, or go somewhere they can't go. Is this what you mean, a person that can do things not necessarily mature things, but things you can't do you sorta wish you could?
rsk
I think this is an interesting discussion and takes my mind off yucky therapy tomorrow. Don't feel bad about not being able to describe how you feel I often feel that way :)
Posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
In reply to Now I feel very bad for bringing it up, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
I hope I will be able to express this thought without being considered uncivil. I THINK, though I'm not sure, that Dinah may be talking about the situation of having a very competent intellect, which can solve whatever *adult* problems present themselves, and possessing also a lot of emotional depth and range, which she has had, sort of unchanged, since she was a child. Probably, at the core, these feelings are very important to her, and they may also be largely non-verbal. She probably feels her statement has more meaning, to her, if she keeps it that way.
MissK seems to be approaching Dinah's comment, which I think she purposely wanted to leave ambiguous, with an intense need to get every bit of meaning into words, going so far as to quote the dictionary.
It's a shame for anyone to feel bad by what just occurred. One way of looking at the exchange is to note that it gives MissK an opportunity to explore the world of unexpressed feelings and ambiguities, where of necessity things are not all nailed down. And Dinah might want to explore ways to share a bit more of her rich inner world in ways which others can understand and enjoy.
There! Did I make it?
Posted by Phillipa on April 23, 2008, at 23:00:28
In reply to a collision of verbal styles?, posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
In my opinion you made it twinleaf. Love Phillipa a person themselves only knows how they feel as they are inside their owns shoes and skin. Feelings are feeling right?
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 5:36:55
In reply to Re: Now I feel very bad for bringing it up Dinah, posted by rskontos on April 23, 2008, at 22:28:25
>Don't feel bad about not being able to describe how you feel
Phillipa >a person themselves only knows how they feel
I am not asking her what she feels, I am asking what she means when she repeatedly uses the word grown-up. If it doesn't mean adult or being mature or no longer childish, then what does it mean is what I am asking.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 5:46:01
In reply to a collision of verbal styles?, posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
> THINK, though I'm not sure, that Dinah may be talking about
Dinah's said she knows precisely what she means. If she does, then there is no need for anyone to guess or hypothosize what she means.
Call me whacky, but I think a discussion about a problem or issue goes better and gets better if we actually know what we are talking about.
Posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 7:24:54
In reply to Re: a collision of verbal styles? » twinleaf, posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 5:46:01
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I would have much preferred it if Dinah had continued with the topic she introduced, and had been willing to describe what it is like for her to feel, in part, not grown up. I was saying that I think the reason she didn't do that may be because these feelings are instinctive. She knows, by instinct, exactly what they are, but she may never have verbalized them completely, or perhaps even not much at all. They remain in the realm of unverbalized knowing- the kind of knowing you can only communicate face to face, as she does with her family and therapist.
My point was that the kind of knowing she is talking about would look (to her) very diminished and approximate if she tried to reduce it to just words. But for the rest of us on this forum, words are all we have, so we- I'm with you here- would have liked to have Dinah's thoughts in words, even though they might be only a rough reflection of the reality she is talking about.
I guess my point to you was that so much of communication in real life is in fact non-verbal, and that we all have to coexist with
so many things which are instinctive, implicit and ambiguous. Some say 95% of face-to-face communication is like that.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 8:59:34
In reply to verbal and non-verbal... » MissK, posted by twinleaf on April 24, 2008, at 7:24:54
>the topic she introduced, and had been willing to describe what it is like for her to feel, in part, not grown up
Well, okay. I am not asking her though what it is like to feel no grown-up. I am NOT asking her what she feels. I am asking what she means when she says and uses the word grown-up.
Apparently, her definition or meaning of grown-up is not the same as the dictionary definition of grown-up. I want to know then what is her definition.
She said she knows precisely what she means when she says it.
And unless you also know precisely what she means, then I do not think you know anymore than anyone else here what she is talking in using the work because she's not said what she means when using it.
Of course, some people like hazy and vague and discombobulated definitions. They are welcome to them, but at what point do their words and what they write and say become meaningless and untrue then if the proper meaning of a word no longer applies or only applies when you feel like it?
So, again, if the word grown-up doesn't mean an adult, a mature person or no longer childish, then I ask what does it mean. In this case, I am asking Dinah what it means to her, not what you think it means for her.
Dinah's responded she knows precisely what it means for her. So, I await the definition of what it means for her along with everyone else here if she cares to share it.
Posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 9:06:37
In reply to Re: verbal and non-verbal... » twinleaf, posted by MissK on April 24, 2008, at 8:59:34
(the same, with some grammar corrections)
>the topic she introduced, and had been willing to describe what it is like for her to feel, in part, not grown upWell, okay. I am not asking her though what it is like to feel not grown-up. I am NOT asking her what she feels. I am asking what she means when she says and uses the word grown-up.
Apparently, her definition or meaning of grown-up is not the same as the dictionary definition of grown-up. I want to know then what is her definition.
She said she knows precisely what she means when she says it.
And unless you also know precisely what she means, then I do not think you know anymore than anyone else here what she is talking about in using the word because she's not said what she means when using it.
Of course, some people like hazy and vague and discombobulated definitions. They are welcome to them, but at what point do their words and what they write and say become meaningless and untrue then if the proper meaning of a word no longer applies or only applies when you feel like it?
So, again, if the word grown-up doesn't mean an adult, a mature person or no longer childish, then I ask what does it mean. In this case, I am asking Dinah what it means to her, not what you think it means for her.
Dinah's responded she knows precisely what it means for her. So, I await the definition of what it means for her along with everyone else here if she cares to share it.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2008, at 11:10:54
In reply to a collision of verbal styles?, posted by twinleaf on April 23, 2008, at 22:57:24
I think you're right that my knowing what I mean is in large part nonverbal. Thank you for putting that into words for me.
I'm not averse to exploring it indirectly in a safe and respectful environment. But I can't *define* it. I am poor at defining things in general, or at explaining things in different ways. It is, as I stated before, a longstanding frustration to me that my brain won't always do what I'd like it to do.
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