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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 17:03:45
Do you ever find yourself wanting to contribute to a thread, but not contributing because you don't want to take sides and possibly put someone into defense mode?
This happens to me. Sometimes I agree or disagree with certain arguments and ideas, but I don't speak up because I don't want the conflict. Sometimes people get defensive when they interpret differing ideas as an attack on them personally and not just ideas.
I think we should all learn to do that, separate differences in opinion from personal attacks. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm attacking you personally. I think we should also learn to accept that we can be wrong. Our self esteem shouldn't be tied up with being right all the time. I think accepting our mistakes and considering others' ideas is important in learning.
Deneb*
Posted by sleepygirl on June 30, 2006, at 17:05:35
In reply to Accepting mistakes, posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 17:03:45
...it is hard isn't it?
Posted by llrrrpp on June 30, 2006, at 17:22:40
In reply to (((((Deneb))))), posted by sleepygirl on June 30, 2006, at 17:05:35
Yep. I know what you mean.
It's a bigger problem for me in real life though. because I can't preview my message before I submit my post.
It's out of my mouth, and then I regret it and I have an internal voice saying something like
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"
"PLEASE BE CIVIL llrrrpp"that repeats itself for a few days/months/years.
ugh.
Posted by curmudgeon on June 30, 2006, at 18:33:26
In reply to Accepting mistakes, posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 17:03:45
Deneb:
I think you're on to something. It seems that some people post with the hope/expectation of agreement and support. And when a response isn't in agreement, they get bent out of shape. What do you think?
C
Posted by rainbutterfly on June 30, 2006, at 20:27:26
In reply to Accepting mistakes, posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 17:03:45
"Our self esteem shouldn't be tied up with being right all the time" - absolutely agree!
And if those in "control" say we are "wrong" then there shouldn't be a voice replaying
"you suck rainbutterfly
you suck rainbutterfly
blech.
Posted by ElaineM on June 30, 2006, at 20:30:58
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » Deneb, posted by curmudgeon on June 30, 2006, at 18:33:26
Deneb*: Hi, I haven't met you yet. The thing I find is that people usually post what they are passionate about, and subjects come loaded for each person way before anyone else says anything. And I guess part of the thing that makes online stuff difficult is that words are such touchy things, especially without a voice or a face to verify interpretations with.
I for one am very triggered by conflict, or confrontation - to the point of feeling paralysed, so I can understand your fear about not posting, or avoiding sides in differences of opinion. And in a jam, my words tend to disappear anyways - brain freeze. Or anxiety overwhelms me and I can never get my words to match my intention, and sometimes end up hurting those I intended to help. And the best I can do then is offer more words to smooth things over :)
I guess with the internet I try and give others the benefit of the doubt in terms of intention. It's a tough one.
:) El
Posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 20:43:32
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » Deneb, posted by curmudgeon on June 30, 2006, at 18:33:26
> I think you're on to something. It seems that some people post with the hope/expectation of agreement and support. And when a response isn't in agreement, they get bent out of shape. What do you think?
I *always* post with the hope and expectation of agreement and support. If people disagreed with me or said unsupportive things I would feel rejected, humiliated, distressed, disillusioned and worthless. Maybe that’s the same as ‘bent out of shape’. I prefer to think of it in terms of vulnerability.
On the other hand, if people make a gentle effort to persuade me to look at things from a different perspective, I feel valued and cared for.
Welcome to my world; please drive carefully ; )
Posted by rainbutterfly on June 30, 2006, at 21:03:35
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » curmudgeon, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 20:43:32
Hi Tamar :o)
I am exactly the same way.
Gentleness is key. Although some mean spirited posts (and behavior) escape penalisation on this and other sites, they aren't hard to spot :o( Kinda wish more people were like you,
a careful flier
Posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 21:23:43
In reply to Re: (((((Deneb))))), posted by llrrrpp on June 30, 2006, at 17:22:40
I wish you had a more affirming inner voice. :-(
It should say,
"llrrrpp rules"
"llrrrpp's the best"
"llrrrpp's no. 1"Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 21:27:17
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » Deneb, posted by curmudgeon on June 30, 2006, at 18:33:26
> Deneb:
>
> I think you're on to something. It seems that some people post with the hope/expectation of agreement and support. And when a response isn't in agreement, they get bent out of shape. What do you think?
>
> CI sometimes do that...post with the expectation of agreement. It doesn't always work out. My Bob love for example. Some would say that my Bob love isn't healthy and that people shouldn't be encouraging it. That was difficult for me to hear. I think they are wrong, but I see how it would make sense to them.
Deneb*
Posted by llrrrpp on June 30, 2006, at 21:41:24
In reply to Re: (((((Deneb))))) » llrrrpp, posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 21:23:43
> I wish you had a more affirming inner voice. :-(
>
> It should say,
>
> "llrrrpp rules"
> "llrrrpp's the best"
> "llrrrpp's no. 1"
>
> Deneb*Thanks Deneb* I just posted something positive below. I'm still trying really hard. I have to fight my depression about every 10minutes. But lately I've been strong enough to fight it.
Deneb* rules
~~~llrrrpp is okay
Deneb* is the best
~~~llrrrpp is not so bad
Deneb*'s # 1
~~~llrrrpp is above average
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2006, at 22:09:21
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » curmudgeon, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 20:43:32
You have such a lovely way with words.
Posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 10:02:31
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » curmudgeon, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 20:43:32
I've learned that it makes my life a lot easier to post almost everything tentatively, leaving myself room to turn around on any point or take it back. Not "is" but "seems". Admit up front how skimpy the evidence is that I'm basing my opinion on. Attribute positions to established authors without quite saying that I believe it, too. Be honest in advance about uncertainty and fallibility.
Of course, for me, all of that weasely qualifying language has to be HONEST. Just adding "IMO" doesn't help. I have to believe in the doubt.
That's not for other people's benefit, but for mine. So if experience or other people start to change my mind, I don't have to eat as much crow when getting on the other bus. (Er, metaphorically.)
But I do poorly when someone replies expressly to dismiss my post as an unimportant or irrelevant concern. My only options there seem to be seething for weeks or going nuclear on them.
Posted by curmudgeon on July 2, 2006, at 12:10:41
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » curmudgeon, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 20:43:32
"If people disagreed with me or said unsupportive things I would feel rejected, humiliated, distressed, disillusioned and worthless""
"But I do poorly when someone replies expressly to dismiss my post as an unimportant or irrelevant concern. My only options there seem to be seething for weeks or going nuclear on them"
The above reactions certainly are unpleasant and beg the question, "Do I have other choices?" Isn't mental health about making better choices?
Opinions?
Posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 12:29:33
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes, posted by curmudgeon on July 2, 2006, at 12:10:41
> Isn't mental health about making better choices?
>
> Opinions?Hi, curmudgeon. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with you, so I may not have an adequate context in which to understand your questions.
Did someone say mental health is NOT about better choices? If not, why do you ask this?
If someone comments that her blood pressure is high, do you reply, "Isn't vascular health about lower blood pressure?"??
Posted by curmudgeon on July 2, 2006, at 13:00:37
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » curmudgeon, posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 12:29:33
Hi:
Both quoted responses clearly indicated that the individual felt they had no other choice than to feel bad.
Posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 14:55:29
In reply to Re: Accepting mistakes » pseudoname, posted by curmudgeon on July 2, 2006, at 13:00:37
> Both quoted responses clearly indicated that the individual felt they had no other choice than to feel bad.
Apparently you assume that feelings are a matter of free will. Perhaps if I were familiar with your posts I would have known that.
That idea of choice seems to me opposed to evidence from research, clinical psychology, and everyday experience. It also seems clear to me that any evolving species that were free to choose its feelings would quickly become extinct.
I have however seen the feelings-are-choices idea promoted by some scientifically unsupported inspirational and self-help books, some of them from religious or mystical backgrounds.
But even if you believe that feelings are a product of choice, that belief would not by itself explain your question, in response to personal disclosures by another Babbler and myself, "Isn't mental health about making better choices?"
Nowhere in the thread did anyone state or imply that mental health would not include "better choices".
Thus there seems to me to be the inescapable implication that I am deliberately not feeling differently by choosing not to feel differently. Perhaps this was not what you meant, but your posts in this thread clearly allow that interpretation. Actually, I don't at the moment see that there can be any other meaning.
I think it *is* possible that, for a particular individual, fostering a private experience of one's own feelings as free choices may have mentally healthful consequences, even if the related belief might scientifically be considered an illusion. Perhaps this is your experience, in which case I would encourage you to share that private experience for the benefit of others, including myself. It would be quite another thing, however, for anyone to make unfounded assertions and coy implications about the private experience of others and their failures to choose better feelings.
Posted by curmudgeon on July 2, 2006, at 15:03:01
In reply to feeling as choices? » curmudgeon, posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 14:55:29
OK...consider "road rage" - people (myself included) CAN learn new responses that feel a heck of a lot better than the old ones. Now, I laugh off drivers' "stupid" moves. Heck, sometimes I'm the one who drives stupid.
An open mind is a powerful thing.
Posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 15:41:54
In reply to One more try » pseudoname, posted by curmudgeon on July 2, 2006, at 15:03:01
Curmudgeon, this post seems great to me. There's no subtext, it seems open to further exploration from others, and you're clearly not attacking anyone.
Until the last line, where there is an obvious implication that your discussants do not have open minds. But given your evident good feelings that come through in this post, I don't think you meant it that way.
I appreciate you taking the time with me.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 2, 2006, at 16:13:14
In reply to feeling as choices? » curmudgeon, posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 14:55:29
Hi Pseudo,
sometimes feelings are habits. Difficult as it may be, it's possible to change many habits, through mental health channels as well other modalities.Othertimes, feelings are choices. While it is rare in my experience to have a choice, I have recently begun to conceive of lapsing into depressive thought as a choice. Perhaps this conception is just another illusion, but at least it seems to be having more positive benefits than the cognitive illusions that depression provides me.
About 5 minutes ago, I had a completely novel "feeling". It was the feeling of goosebumps, which emerged as a mosaic patchwork along my right forearm. Very strange. This feeling was not a habit or a choice, because I've never experienced it before. However, I did feel that I had a choice as to what I wanted to do with that feeling. Ignore it? Freak out and get pdoc on the phone? Start crying? Get angry?
In terms of applying a "choice", my first step is to realize what's going on, take a tiny timeout, enough time to inhibit an automatic reponse, and instead review the evidence at hand. Then the second step is to give my feelings a direction. Hopefully the direction I've given myself will lead me to a satisfactory outcome. If not, then I can at least evaluate what I did in retrospect, having done it consciously.
I have a hard time replying to a lot of threads too, Deneb*. My mom brainwashed me into thinking "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all". Well, the world is not that simple, neither is psycho-babble. Sometimes the nicest thing to do is to gently disagree and do your best to support your argument.
-ll
Posted by pseudoname on July 2, 2006, at 19:28:03
In reply to Re: feeling as choices? » pseudoname, posted by llrrrpp on July 2, 2006, at 16:13:14
> sometimes feelings are habits.
Like feeling hungry when you hear a bell? Feelings can be conditioned as responses, but that's different than what we usually mean by "habits", which are under presumptively voluntary control. I don't think feelings can be habits in that sense.
Except for your recent experiences, which I don't deny. I try to imagine, like what you described, subtly changing the direction of my feelings voluntarily. It feels like the attention exercises in mindfulness training. Like, "Look! There's some confidence! Pay attention to that!" And so on.
Maybe that's not similar to what you describe. But for me, it takes away that choice aspect and my intellectual world is secure again.
;-)
Posted by llrrrpp on July 2, 2006, at 20:03:24
In reply to Accepting mistakes, posted by Deneb on June 30, 2006, at 17:03:45
"So when at times the mob is swayed to carry praise or blame too far, we may choose something like a star to stay our minds on and be staid."
-Robert Frost
This is the end of the thread.
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