![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
I am so new here that it just doesn't seem right to ask all of you for help. Yet, I am in pain, and I think you will understand and provide me with much needed direction. Still, I am sorry to unload on you.
With that disclaimer, I'll proceed. I had a childhood filled with abuse of every kind -- parental neglect, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and loads of emotional abuse. Despite this, I grew up to be fairly competent and successful though I have made some really bad decisons on occasion. To others, I believe I appear friendly but aloof. I ignore my emotions, but I am empathetic to others. I have a very stoic facade. Others come to me for help -- I think others would have no idea that I suffer.
I have struggled with suicidal ideation for a few years. I was very proud of myself that without letting anyone in on the pain, I was able to come out of those dark days. Yet, in those weak moments, it would come sneaking back without warning. I learned to recognize the triggers and avoid them. I forced myself out of the negative thinking. However, I do feel extremely worthless -- those closest to me have rejected me throughtout my life. Sometimes I let the depression envelope me because I want to punish myself for being such a bad person.
When I would be in this miserable state, there was always one last resort -- professional help. Well, I finally broke down and did it. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. I've been going weekly for 6 months. Now, instead of being miserable, I'm miserable without any more options. I don't like to talk about myself; I feel clumsy and uncomfortable and burdensome to him. Just saying that you want to die doesn't make it go away.
The pain has been very acute for the past month. Every week, I go in and give my state of the nation in the most corporate voice you can imagine. "I have felt some intense anxiety coupled with bouts of depression," I'll say coldly, without expression. Inside, I'm crying and screaming, "Help me! Can't you see how much pain I'm in?!?" He matches my corporate speak, I am sure, because he thinks that is appropriate. We end up talking about things that don't matter a hill of beans because I can't seem to get what matters out of my mouth.
He doesn't know that I am in such a state of crisis because I can't seem to convey the emotion behind the words. I leave feeling worse than coming in -- I feel uncared for, though I know it's not his fault.
The bottom line is that therapy has made me feel worse. I know that my prior coping skill of ignoring everything was not productive, but opening these wounds without any sign of healing is unbearable and causes me not to function as well as before.
Whatever shall I do?
Again, I apologize for the length and for dumping on all of you dear people who also suffer.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2004, at 9:38:12
In reply to How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
Sounds like me my first several years of therapy. And no, my therapist wasn't insightful enough to get it. He thought I was incapable of feeling emotions, had me pegged in the schizotypal/schizoid group.
I'll try to remember what changed, because you shouldn't have to go through years of it like I did. One thing that changed is that I started trusting him more. No shortcut to that one. I started bringing in writing. For example, you could bring him in your post. You did a very good job of describing how you felt, and didn't feel at all corporate. He'd make me read the writing, or agree to read it first, then have me read it aloud. It helped *a lot*. So if you find you can express yourself easier in writing or in conversations online, use that. Bring them in.
I also learned to look deep deep inside myself before going in. I would visualize opening door after door going downward to where my feelings were kept and inviting them out. A silly visualization, but surprisingly effective for me. At first the emotions weren't congruous, but I got better at it.
I still struggle sometimes saying things the *right* way. Saying them with the feelings attached. It's very frustrating to me to report on them instead of experiencing them in the moment. My therapist tries to let me know that that is all right.
((((Aphrodite))))
P.S. Don't worry about asking for help. That's what the board is for. Besides, you've already *given* lots of support (not that that's a necessary precondition for getting it).
Posted by lucy stone on May 1, 2004, at 11:53:06
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger) » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2004, at 9:38:12
Have you thought about going more often? My T says that if you have something you need to talk about talking about it more often is helpful. If you have the time and money to see your T twice or more a week you might start feeling more open with him more quickly. I also think that GG advice is great. Your T needs to know how you feel.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 15:12:01
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger) » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2004, at 9:38:12
Thank you so much, Dinah. You seem to really understand my predicament. I think I will ask him during our next visit if he would want to read some of the things I just cannot seem to say.
Your point about trusting the therapist is well-taken; I have no reason not to trust him. I just fear that the moment I do, something bad will happen -- he'll move or quit the profession or worse, he will outright reject me. (Yes, I have HUGE abandonment and trust issues!)
And thank you for giving my post so much thought while you are in the midst of your own pain. You are truly wonderful.
Posted by lonelygirl on May 1, 2004, at 15:18:34
In reply to How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
You certainly don't need to apologize for "dumping" your problems here... that's the whole point of these boards, right? :)
Anyway, I think Dinah's suggestions sound good, but if that doesn't work, perhaps the problem is your therapist, not you. When I started seeing my psychologist, I was acutally forced to because I got in trouble at school, and I was initially very resistant in "asking for help" or showing what I was feeling, even to the point where I lied to minimize my problems. Actually, I sort of wanted him to think that I didn't have any problems. I recall telling him that it doesn't bother me that I don't have any friends, but somehow he could see deeper... I think a good one should be able to sense things, and if yours is so clueless about how you feel and can't understand, maybe it's him, not you. That said, I certainly understand how daunting it is to seek help at all, let alone start over with someone else, so it would probably easiest to try to work with the one you have now if possible.
Posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 18:42:30
In reply to How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
Please don't apologize for asking for help. It is the first step to getting it in therapy. I posted lots here as "practice" and took stuff with me into therapy.
I would suggest a conversation that goes like this: "I have been in therapy for 6 months and I still don't think I've told you how much pain I really am in. I am really good at hiding it so I need you to ask me, twice, if I say I'm OK. I also need you to try to take me into the hard topics, because I can't do it myself. But when I leave I'm so upset and frustrated."
I started therapy at the end of last May. Except for a few things here and there I didn't start using therapy to heal until mid Sept. I just thought I "shouldn't" bring up the old stuff because I didn't go into therapy for "that." Once it was out and open I crashed, hard. I'm like you, the go to for help person. I couldn't believe how much it hurt to talk about something that was so old. Then it would get better and then worse again.
I can't imagine doing this without the Therapist I have. He calls me on it when I try to avoid stuff. The hardest part has been admitting how much I need him. He pulled that piece out an inch at a time. And he tells me it is OK.
I was shocked the first time my mind identified suicide as a possible "out" of this pain. It isn't me, it isn't who I am. I ALWAYS keep the faith that it gets better. But not with this, it was just too big. I was really embarrassed to talk about it, so I talked around it. My Therapist was gentle and straight foreword but he let me know it was not unusual to feel like this. He talked a lot about being with me in it, so I wouldn't be alone with my pain.
I still struggle, as you know. This weekend my abandonment flags are screaming high, for lots of reasons. I've gone back to that black place and I feel the pain intensely. I keep thinking I don't want to be in there on Monday and say, "I'm not doing well." I have this fantasy of avoiding talking about my feelings all together. But he won't allow it, I already know it.
I'm 6 months ahead of you. You will get here. but you have to ask for help. Your Therapist can do that for you.
Posted by antigua on May 1, 2004, at 19:21:47
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 18:42:30
Daisy, I'm so sorry you're back in the black hole. I have been feeling better the last few weeks, but today it has all come crashing down. Maybe it's because I wasn't ultra busy with my kids and life and had time to myself, to simply think and think and think. Too much thinking? So much goes on around me that I hide behind the confusion so that I don't have to deal with my real problems.
Maybe this is just a temporary thing. Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. I hope you do, too.
antigua
Posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 20:48:49
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 18:42:30
This is very sound advice. I only go near the painful subjects when he asks, and then I often ask to be let off the hook, and he does so. He respects my pace, but I think I do need to go there and not let him rescue me. Then, he would see the pain -- there would be no way to mistake it for the little "conflicts at work" problems I try to bring up to avoid the childhood stuff.
He has started something new by dividing me into three -- there is the authentic me, the wounded me, and the accomodating me. Accomodating Aphrodite says, "We can talk about whatever you think is best." So, he asks the others. The wounded Aphrodite wants comforting, the authentic Aphrodite wants action. But so far, they still don't speak up very well for themselves. Daisy, it kind of reminds me of your adult/child conflict. It sure does explain all those conflicting feelings, doesn't it?
I guess where we are different is that I get the impression that my therapist isn't going to encourage me to be dependent on him. Unlike the article you posted a week ago about the need for dependency, he seems to think my independence is a strength. (I know better.) Anyway, I am afraid to go to those dark places -- man, there are so many -- because if I dive deep, I won't know how to surface, and he won't be there to pull me out of the water. And I certainly don't have a support system in place being Miss Little Stoic all these years.
Still, your post has encouraged me to take the plunge. I am just so afraid of becoming so impaired that I cannot function for my family and my coworkers.
Daisy, thank you. I hope the next visit goes well for you. Do you think you're over the hump now that you are more forthcoming? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?
Posted by Sabina on May 1, 2004, at 21:15:19
In reply to How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
your post touched a nerve for me. i hope this helps.
when i began therapy about a year and a half ago, i was fortunate enough that my therapist both recognized and repeatedly addressed my tendency to intellectualize and diminish my emotions, problems, and history of abuse. i attribute this tendency in myself to overwhelming feelings of worthlessness like those that you mentioned.
as a suggestion, it might be a simple enough sentence within your current comfort zone to tell your therapist in your "corporate voice" that you're extremely concerned over your tendency to intellectualize deep seated pain and that you'd like some input on addressing that issue. hopefully, things will progress naturally from there.
i don't know if you want to avoid showing any emotion at all costs or if you could view the potential as more of a breakthrough. maybe just getting the truth out in the open would be enough for a start?
good luck, and keep us posted.
Posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 22:07:00
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger) » DaisyM, posted by antigua on May 1, 2004, at 19:21:47
Antigua, I think these things cycle around. I'm sorry your having such a hard day. Too much time to think is very dangerous. I spent 3 hours alone in the car today so I know exactly what you mean.
I'm not always sure what triggers me, sometimes I just get overwhelmed with sadness. But usually I get caught in the aftermath of conversations in therapy or bad dreams.
I hope you can get busy with your kids again but still find time to do something nice for yourself. Are you working on any special writings these days?
Posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 22:30:18
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger » DaisyM, posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 20:48:49
Over the hump...hmmm, honestly no. I think I'm somewhere towards the middle of sorting out these old feelings and how they have effected me. Trouble is I have a very complicated life and I have to deal with present day stuff too. The way I seem to be working is that I will have a memory or dream, which I will bring into therapy. "Telling" is excruciatingly painful for me but my Therapist is good at helping me get out the details and dealing with the feelings. So I usually tell in one session and then we work on the feelings that the child felt and try to reframe things, in the next. But I can only do this a few weeks at a time. I move myself out of it and we go to other things. Since I get overwhelmed, I assume he does too. So we spend time on my need to take care of him and my fears about being abandoned.
It *is* hard to keep it together some days. We do lots of phone check ins when this happens. I have usually been able to work, though perhaps not at my best. Keeping busy is a way I cope, so he encourages that. It isn't unusual for Therapists to encourage your independence, because it is one of the things that keeps you together. For me, it was keeping me from the help I needed. As far as support systems, Babble has become a huge part of mine. I have a couple of people I can ask really personal questions of via email. I have another couple of friends in real life who know how complicated my life is and check in with me. Only one knows about the abuse.
As far as light at the end of the tunnel, I'm not sure I've reached the tunnel yet. I feel like I'm still at the toll booth paying my dues. I keep asking my Therapist how long this is going to take and he just says, it took you 42 years to get this way, we can't "just" undo it in a week. It will take as long as it does. He is good about adding in that he is in it for the long haul, not to worry! :)
I like the concept of asking the three seperate parts of you what they want. Even though I still find it weird to talk about myself in pieces, it does allow me to express somethings that would otherwise be kept in. And writing in different voices helps me too.
Try to catch us in Open sometime. Chatting is fun and very helpful. Or you can always email me @ BabbleDaisymm@aol.com.
Posted by tabitha on May 2, 2004, at 1:15:36
In reply to How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
Hi Ahprodite. You really have good insight into what's happening in your therapy and what you're feeling about the sessions. If you just take a few little steps toward bringing those things into the sessions I think you'll start to get some relief from carrying it all inside yourself. I also hope your therapist can respond empathetically as you start to let little bits of your inner self come out. Really I think you can be assured that taking 6 months to feel comfortable opening up is probably very normal. You're still feeling him out and seeing if he's trustworthy.
People had a lot of good ideas about how to broach the subject. I also found that having more than 1 session a week got me into deeper material. If you can try twice a week or double-length sessions that might help. When I do longer sessions, I think the first 50 minutes is just catching up on the week's events, then the time after that it seems like I go into real issues.
And about your worry of losing your ability to function, well yes that's a concern. I do feel worse and have a hard time functioning after heavy sessions. I've used some sick days for the day after therapy, when I didn't want to go to work all distraught. I manage. If you're a high-functioning person, I doubt you'll completely reverse that and fall apart. Anyway those fears are also good things to talk about in the sessions. He might have some reassurance for you, or be able to suggest ways he can work with you on deeper issues and make sure you're put back together enough to function after the sessions.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 3, 2004, at 15:19:45
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Sabina on May 1, 2004, at 21:15:19
Intellectualizing is a defense, isn't it? I always patted myself on my back for not being overrun by emotions. Truth is, I was (am) just ignoring them.
Thanks for your support.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 3, 2004, at 15:22:07
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger) » Aphrodite, posted by tabitha on May 2, 2004, at 1:15:36
Tabitha,
I agree that longer or more frequent sessions would be helpful. I only get warmed up toward the end.
I also appreciate your comment that it takes 6 months to know your therapist. I've had people in my life for decades that I'm not sure of -- it's hard to divulge to a perfect stranger. Trust is so crucial to this process. Thanks for your comments.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 3, 2004, at 15:25:19
In reply to It's a long road (long) » Aphrodite, posted by DaisyM on May 1, 2004, at 22:30:18
I'm interested, Daisy, in your need to take care of your therapist and your worry about overwhelming him. I have the same concerns; he's only human after all. I worry that I might trigger something from his life or that I will hit some nerve or just be too high maintenance. I think I should tell him about this concern. How did your therapist respond? Is it normal?
Posted by DaisyM on May 3, 2004, at 20:22:32
In reply to Re: It's a long road (long) » DaisyM, posted by Aphrodite on May 3, 2004, at 15:25:19
It is totally normal, especially for those of us who worry that people might leave us. Trusting is so hard and when we finally do trust, how do we know if we are trusting (and therefore dumping) too much?
Yes, you should tell him. That way he can help you not do it. My Therapist and I have an agreement that I will not take care of him and be honest in therapy and if he sees me doing it, he will call me on it, or ask me about it. I don't always manage to avoid doing it, and sometimes I'm not even aware of it. But I told him I was going to need to hear a million times that he wasn't overwhelmed and he wasn't "done" and he was going to reject me because of how needy I might become. So he says it a lot. And sometimes he even acknowledges these fears up front. Like when he wanted me to come more often he said, "I know this is going to freak you out on some level..."
I told him today that I was mad at him over the weekend for opening up a really painful subject when I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't prepared for the level the discussion went to. He said he knew it was painful but he didn't know we were going there either. And that part of my pain and anger where that I didn't have a chance to prepare *him* for how awful it was going to be, so my "I've overwhelmed you" fears were up. He was right. And he said he didn't plan to stop going deep with me and he finished with, "I'm still here."
So, talk to him. It might really help.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 4, 2004, at 7:29:13
In reply to Re: It's a long road (long), posted by DaisyM on May 3, 2004, at 20:22:32
What might be helpful is if I just moved and started seeing your therapist:)
Seriously, it sounds like being honest helped you to get the responses that you're getting. I'll try when I go this week.
I like to prepare, too. I hate being caught off guard, but those have probably been our best discussions.
Posted by Sabina on May 4, 2004, at 15:01:49
In reply to Re: How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger » Sabina, posted by Aphrodite on May 3, 2004, at 15:19:45
yeah, i used intellectualizing for a long time as a coping mechanism to keep my pain at a more managable distance, especially related to childhood abuse.
> Intellectualizing is a defense, isn't it? I always patted myself on my back for not being overrun by emotions. Truth is, I was (am) just ignoring them.
>
> Thanks for your support.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 6, 2004, at 14:41:03
In reply to How I hate to ask for help! (Long, may trigger), posted by Aphrodite on May 1, 2004, at 8:33:12
Well, I went to my session today. I used Dinah's technique of inviting my feelings. I practiced Daisy's words, which I thought were perfect. An hour before the session, I listened to a wonderful storyteller tape by a Jungian psychologist; it's called "Warming the Stone Child" and it's about myths of abandonment and the unmothered child. If that fits your life, I highly recommend it. (Sorry, Dr. Bob, the quote thing doesn't seem to work for books on tape from Amazon, or, more likely, I don't know what I'm doing.) Anyway, this tape had my emotions raw and exposed. On the way to his office, I listened to the most heart-wrenching music I have.
So what happened? I walked into his office, full of emotion and ready to ask for more sessions and ready to cry (waterproof mascara and all), and corporate Aphrodite, CEO and President of my life, took control of the meeting and we spent the next hour talking about how to best deal with a difficult middle management person and strategies to further my career.
You know what it is? I figured it out (I think) on the way home. I'm confident in my career; I'm full of the right answers. I like to impress him because he responds to me so well in this intellectual mode -- he's very interested and animated, and I like to please him. When I'm raw and weepy and emotional, he is so different, very validating and understanding but aloof. I feel like I've troubled him.
Advice?
I guess there is always next week:(
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2004, at 8:19:55
In reply to Update *sigh*, posted by Aphrodite on May 6, 2004, at 14:41:03
It wasn't a quick task for me, I'll tell you that. But working on it again and again eventually paid off.
Your perception of what the problem is is important. You may be perceiving something that is partially or completely true about your therapist. Or you may be misperceiving based on your own feelings about feeling. It sounds like it would be an interesting session.
It's possible that he does enjoy the intellectual stimulation of talking with you in your most efficient and capable mode. While he still realizes that that's not what you're in therapy to "fix" and is equally to see you when you're feeling raw and vulnerable because he sees that as an important step in your progress.
Or it's possible that he is so happy at having someone functioning at a very high level that he is somehow telegraphing that to you subtly.
Or it's possible that, for example, you were used to having tears and weakness met with coldness, so you fear he'll respond with aloofness when that isn't really what he's feeling at all.
Perhaps you could bring your post into him next session (put it on word and make it sound like a journal if you're not admitting to Babble) and explore the issue together. I've found that sometimes my therapist will say the most interesting things when I ask him things like that. It's an important topic worth devoting part of a session to.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 12, 2004, at 17:42:47
In reply to Re: Update *sigh* » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2004, at 8:19:55
Seriously, I think you hit on something there about being used to my emotions being rejected and thus I project that same response onto him.
And I can imagine that it's nice for the therapists too to have a day of intellectual stimulation that doesn't involve deep emotional issues. I gave him a day off -- I'll try again tomorrow and will post in neon lights.
Posted by DaisyM on May 12, 2004, at 19:39:10
In reply to Update *sigh*, posted by Aphrodite on May 6, 2004, at 14:41:03
Aphrodite,
I just got back from staff retreat and went straight from there to a therapy session. I can really relate to what you said about CEO taking charge.
I agree with everything Dinah said, and if rejection of your feelings (a huge issue for me) was part of your history, *of course* you are going to have a hard time letting them out. I also think you've got really, really high expectations about how "finally" letting go is going to help you, cure you and/or make it all better. It can be cathartic. For many people it is. It can move you closer to your therapist. But it can also be a huge let down, because even if the tears come out and rain all over your problems, they are still there, they still have to be "dealt" with. And if your Therapist doesn't respond like you are hoping he will, the moment can be painful.
I think my Therapist is wonderful. But I remember when he drew me into this intense, honest conversation about what I wanted and needed. He asked me to set aside the adult and he wanted to talk to the younger part of me. What SHE wanted and needed from him. And, unbelievably, she told him. And then there was silence. Long seconds, which turned to a minute and I finally had to say, "say something". I was so sure in that minute that everything I had allowed her to say was out of line and would be too much for him. And his silence was really hard to take.
He acknowledge how hard the silence must have been, said he was thinking of the best way to meet her needs and yet not have the adult run from therapy but that he didn't mean to hurt me or convey disapproval. It took us awhile to work back from there because it wasn't at all the fantasy of the cathartic cry I had in my head.
I also know what you mean by enjoying an intellectal discussion with your Therapist. I've been *so* in charge for days, it was impossible to let emotions into the room until the end. It was also great to "chat" with my Therapist about how this activity worked, or who said what...because he helped me work it all through last week. He was excited about self-reflective activities and we talked about my answers. I realized that I had been chattering away for 1/2 an hour and stopped, looked at the clock and went sheepish about how much I'd been rambling. He teased me about being so relaxed, and open and about "finally!" not watching the clock...well, almost.
But he's not one to ever let me get by with much, so near the end he asks a tough question for me "Were you able to take me with you?" knowing I hate to admit how much I need him, especially out loud. I liked chatting in the intellectual realm, he likes to examine the impact on "our" relationship. He wants me to be OK with needing him, I want to "stop it!"
You WILL get there. Give it time and keep trying. I hope today went well. Let us know.
This is the end of the thread.
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