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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by EscherDementian on February 29, 2004, at 19:14:16
What does anyone know about this phenom & can tell me about it?
i've been going through the intense pain without exact memory of the experiences, other than very specific 'hallucinations' that come with the episode. My pdoc has called these episodes "Body memories, probably from a pre-language time~ as in possibly 'shaken baby syndrome'."
Can anyone share some light on this PTSD syndrome?
i would be very very grateful.Thanx',
Escher
Posted by Racer on February 29, 2004, at 21:39:58
In reply to Body Memories, posted by EscherDementian on February 29, 2004, at 19:14:16
This is analogous to body memory, I think, rather than directly related to what you're describing. I used to teach horseback riding, and one of the things I used to teach students was to FEEL what was happening. You do use your mind in learning to ride, but the hardest and most essential part is to let go of your mind and FEEL what is actually happening. Let your body learn how to do it. Specifically, I told them that they had to FEEL it before they could UNDERSTAND it.
I think that's linked to what you're describing. Let's see if it makes sense this way: rather than thinking that these are necessarily PREverbal, how about thinking of them as SUBverbal and see if that makes it clearer to you? Some things are just processed in your animal brain, rather than in your sapient mind.
I'm a big disbeliever in diagnoses, tending to stand pretty firmly on my mountaintop, surrounded by water, proclaiming "It's not raining here!" I resisted listening to a friend who suggested that this was PTSD for a long time, despite pretty convincing evidence to the contrary -- largely because I tend to focus so much on the solution, even if I don't fully understand the problem. That said, same friend finally send me an article called The Limits Of Talk, by someone called Bessel van der Kolk. The article talks about shell shock victims from WWI, and something about it hit me like a ton of bricks. (The old Mule Training joke: "first you hit him over the head with a 2x4, to get his attention...") I don't know where to find it, but you could google it and see if it helps you?
If it does help, with riding, many times your body learns something positive that your mind never does. I can think of a lot of things that I can do, but only if I let my body do them for me. As soon as I think about what I'm doing, I can't do it anymore. Same for me with language. (Although, use it or lose it style, I'm basically monolingual these days... {{sigh}}) I could speak or read in another language, but I couldn't translate very well for someone else, because the nuances of certain words was too completely intuitive for me to express in English.
In the meantime, best wishes to you, and take good care. I hope these ramblings helped somewhat.
Posted by DaisyM on March 1, 2004, at 21:30:14
In reply to Body Memories, posted by EscherDementian on February 29, 2004, at 19:14:16
I'm finding that my body has been holding lots of memories. I've always hated back rubs, hot tubs, massage, etc. and I've always known why. But since I've started trying to deal with all of this certain touches cause specific reactions or memories for me. Straight on sex can cause flashbacks.
Shaken Baby Syndrome however causes brain injury. A baby's brain is smaller than the outer shell (your head) and if you shake a baby the brain is bounced from one side to another. Usually there is occular damage as well as motor function impairment. It is rare that the frontal lobe is solely damaged, meaning the results will be much more than just emotional. The nervous system can be damaged secondarily.
I've seen too many babies with this. They are developmentally delayed or worse -- but I wouldn't put them in the PTSD category.
Posted by EscherDementian on March 2, 2004, at 20:10:17
In reply to Re: Body Memories » EscherDementian, posted by DaisyM on March 1, 2004, at 21:30:14
Hmmm... i think the keywords about the shaken baby reference were "as in", meaning trauma that occurred before the developmental level that allows us to have memories with classifications...
BUT i do appreciate the comments you both shared.
i'm trying to understand this current frightening sequel to the 'terror episodes' that began the most terrifying part of my PTSD healing journey.The term "body memories" seems to be a common one, known by the pdocs working through this with me. i would very much like to know how these events are explained, how they presently occur, and also healing assistance 40yrs after the initial traumas were incurred and 'forgotten'. (?)
Most of my experiences called "body memories" have come without the (previous mental 'terror episode' characteristic) triggering of fight-or-flight hormones & chemical change that was hijacking my health and reality... These "body memories" painfully re-create the 'feel' of physical trauma without any explanation or present cause, nor emotional initiation.
For example: i awoke in the morning feeling as though my ribs were being squeezed in, very painfully, and then my head, neck and hip joints began to have extreme pain, also. Then i can't breathe, i can't inhale a full breath and i feel scared only by my looming inability to breathe fully. (Attempting to walk, there is no strength or balance whatsoever in my legs and i fell).
The height of the traumatic pain may last only 10-15 minutes or so, but i am then severely sore for many hours or more. The physical locations have been shifting with the 'events'.
A few times in the late afternoons or early evenings my left jaw and inside of my cheek and lower lip have suddenly become painful and then swollen.
Yet with one of the painful 'events', i was troubled by seeing big red berries on each and every bush and tree on our property (not really there). i suppose perhaps like (Holly?) i remember in my childhood, but there is no specific memory to go with the very REAL physical pain _as though_ i were clearly thrown into a bush larger than myself. But there is no memory of this. Just real physical pain and emotional anguish.My poor body feels just exhausted right now, after a week or better of these 'events'. And i feel fragile so close to the surface with very deep emotions. i suppose there is no other course than to simply Take Care of myself through this part of the process, knowing that it comes up to be healed and released... but i welcome learning all i can about it to assist in the healing. Being so cerebral all these years, i feel more capeable when i can understand ~in the face of horrors.
A safe environment of loving kindness; honest and true caring for the best interests of my little unique soul... Creating this environment where it did not exist before is powerful medicine. But i sure hurt right now.
Re-experiencing in Now time,
Escher
Posted by gardenergirl on March 2, 2004, at 20:37:13
In reply to Re: Body Memories, posted by EscherDementian on March 2, 2004, at 20:10:17
Escher,
Found a couple of articles in psychinfo that may be helpful. Take care,gg
Author Robohm, Jennifer S.; Buttenheim, Margaret
Author Affiliation U Michigan Ctr for the Child & the Family, Ann Arbor, US.
Title The gynecological care experience of adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse: A preliminary investigation.
Appears In Women & Health. Vol 24(3), 1996, 59-76.
Publisher Info Haworth Press, US. 1996. http://www.haworthpressinc.com
Abstract The gynecological care experiences of 44 adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse and 30 non-abused controls were investigated and compared. On a self-administered survey, survivors rated the gynecological care experience more negatively than the controls, experienced more intensely negative feelings, and reported being more uncomfortable during almost every stage of the gynecological examination than did the controls. Survivors also reported more trauma-like responses during the gynecological examination, including overwhelming emotions, intrusive or unwanted thoughts, memories, body memories, and feelings of detachment from their bodies. 82% of the survivors had never been asked about a history of sexual abuse or assault by a gynecological care provider, despite clear evidence from this study that such information would be relevant to their care. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2003 APA, all rights reserved)Author Hepburn, Jan McGregor
Author Affiliation Private Practice, Northumberland, England.
Title The mind-body split and body memory.
Appears In Free Associations. Vol 6(40, Pt 4), 1996, 589-606.
Publisher Info Process Press, United Kingdom. 1996.
Abstract Explores some of the ways in which bodily functions/feelings and cerebral activity may be split, and the ways in which psychoanalytic psychotherapy may run the risk of perpetuating this split. The author describes the mind-body split as a defensive maneuver against the fear of annihilation; body memories are presented as a possible clue in preventing this need for defense. The author argues that the inclusion of direct body memories into the psychoanalytic psychotherapy repertoire, despite the difficulties and anxieties involved, is essential. Not doing so could mean the loss of a chance to fully understand the historical context of the patient and the pathology, an interference with the process of uncovering secret or pre-verbal issues which need to be named and brought into consciousness, and the loss of the therapist's integrity. If the latter happens, the therapist unwittingly becomes the means of reinforcing illness instead of celebrating health. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2003 APA, all rights reserved)
Posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 21:37:39
In reply to Re: Body Memories, posted by EscherDementian on March 2, 2004, at 20:10:17
Call your general internist, and get over there for a full work up. That *doesn't* sound much like anything I've come across regarding body memories, but it does sound like something that could have a very physical cause.
Unless you've already done the bloodwork and physical, you don't know that *every* symptom you're experiencing is related to PTSD. Many of them are, but there's still a good possiblity that you're experiencing something like orthostatic hypotension, or starting to show signs of Bell's palsy, or having a bad reaction to meds. The rule in veterinary care is pretty simple: rule out the physical first. It's a good rule, and I wish more human doctors would follow it. It may turn out to be PTSD, but check out the physical first. (I've had similar experiences, and they were physical, by the way, and nothing very bad. Don't let fear of being sick keep you from the doctor's office. Once I finally dragged my back end in there, I was better within days.)
Good luck!
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 3, 2004, at 22:04:25
In reply to Call your doctor! » EscherDementian, posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 21:37:39
I am with Racer on this please see a doctor a GOOD one. I would also push for a neurologist to rule out any other issues regular doctors miss. Not to scare you but I have known someone with M.S who was told for years it was emotional and given Valium till she went blind. Please seek and rule out ALL medical issues first I bet you are fine but its a smart move to make. Let us know please?
Posted by EscherDementian on March 12, 2004, at 4:29:25
In reply to Call your doctor! » EscherDementian, posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 21:37:39
Full and thorough workups "including bloodwork" plus much more has been done by my internist every 6-8 months since the initial established dx of PTSD. The dx was made a little over a year& 1/2 ago by four professionals, including (and the first MD to do so)my primary care internist. Have been working through it with 2 specialists AND my internist all this time and actively keeping in touch here on PBabble almost for that long. i realize that you are fairly new on PBabble and that's why you made the satement "may turn out to be PTSD"....
You really seem like a nice person and i don't mean to sound curt here, but my question was for info. about the phenom "body memories" in a psychiatric context, and as part of the process of PTSD terminology & therapy... which is why i posted on PB Psychology. The dx was never questionable.
But thanx for responding,Escher
P.S.You must be a Veterinarian?
Posted by EscherDementian on March 12, 2004, at 5:09:19
In reply to Re: Body Memories » EscherDementian, posted by gardenergirl on March 2, 2004, at 20:37:13
Thanks again, gg ~ for the research and references.
You are awesome.
Will keep you all posted... so far i think they have slowed down a bit from daily, 24/7.
The part of the therapy that really amazed me was instruction from my pdoc, the EMDR therapist
AND the ND to: "WRITE. Write it in language. Describe the moment's physical feeling, NOW."
i didn't do that at first... i was panicked & looking for the pain prevention, or else intellectualizing the moment in ink, but when i ACTUALLY experienced IT in "Now Time" IN LANGUAGE what i have not been able to, (even as it was happening as an infant or child : (dissociation)) the most amazing thing happened! It dispersed. Just dissolved. Like a feeling of 'uplifting'. And each of the location/events that i have successfully dispelled has not returned.wow. This is an amazing thing. i have each of the 3 specialist's brief explanations for why this works this way (~you can probably guess), and i still don't understand the actual mechanisms in "body memories" from abuse dissociation - decades after the actual trauma was incurred, but.... wow. *WHEW*
It's still really tough. And painful & scary. There's still more coming... but am so grateful that i survived to see the day(s) to heal this.
Will tell you more in detail if you're interested?
The choking/throat chakra part of the experience actually has a parallel to the 'Christ expelling demons' description. *boggle*And i haven't felt so 'living in my body' for decades. i can actually -feel-, Now.
Thanx' for hanging in there with me,
Escher
Posted by EscherDementian on March 12, 2004, at 5:22:49
In reply to Re: Call your doctor!, posted by Fallen4myT on March 3, 2004, at 22:04:25
Hi, Fallen4myT,
Thank you for your well-wishes and response.
It means alot. This connection on PBabble has been a life raft in the middle of the dark night. Sometimes literally! For you, too? Please read my post for Racer.... The neurologist i've worked with was one who suggested the Amen clinic for the brain scans. It shook my heart when i learned that children subjected to unrelenting fear actually have their brain hardware (hippocampus,thalamus & amygdala) changed for life. -i THINK i have those correct.... anyone?Thanks for the sentiments.
Escher
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 12, 2004, at 12:43:29
In reply to Re: Call your doctor! » Fallen4myT, posted by EscherDementian on March 12, 2004, at 5:22:49
Hi EscherDementian, :) Yes t is nice to have a raft out here in the ocean surounded by darkness at times . I read the post to Racer so good you are in proper care. I did not know that about kids brains..wow means I may be very miswired :( Oh well lol I am in therapy we shall see ..Best wishes to you and hope to see you post more I kind of run a lot of posts or very few..right now I am in my very few mode..HUGS
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