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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by zenhussy on December 11, 2003, at 15:30:01
In reply to Karen's rant (this n's good), posted by Karen_kay on December 11, 2003, at 15:05:33
> He did say something interesting today though. He said that if I started to cry it was ok. And I started in about how it is NOT ok to cry...blah blah, ect.. And he said, "I might start crying too." Is that weird? Is it common for a therapist to cry with their client? I told him it would be really odd and strange for me if he started crying too. He said that it is ok for a person to be overcome with emotion and cry. I think if he cried I would freak out. It would be sweet, but I might start laughing hysterically because I would feel very strange. What do you think?
Karen_kay,
I've had many therapists over the years who have cried at times when someone would have to be a stone cold lug to not do so. Sure when I was younger and in therapy it freaked the hell outta me but now that I've gone through many stages of understanding just what it is I went through I'm rather glad I've had compassionate therapists who've been human enough to cry.
Their tears helped me normalize and understand the magnitude of what occured in my life. I for many years tried to believe that I was fine. I wasn't. Once I was able to cry in a therpist's office it was a huge relief. Finding out that sometimes they cry too was comforting. For me being with a therapist who is gentle and kind is essential to dealing with the trauma work I face.
I've learned so much by knowing that other people feel pain after hearing about the traumas I've experienced. Their demonstrations of tears have shown me that, if anything, I *need* to be more upset about what I've been through. They helped show me the emotions I could use. Ranging from anger to sadness with tears. I was so frozen and used to faking I was okay that I needed their modeling.
zenhussy
Posted by DaisyM on December 11, 2003, at 19:52:10
In reply to Karen's rant (this n's good), posted by Karen_kay on December 11, 2003, at 15:05:33
Sounds like a good, but tough, session. What did he say about your dreams?
I agree it is hard to remember something in front of your Therapist and then spit out the memory. I can't. I have to figure out how to put words to the picture first. It usually takes me a week or more.
As far as crying, I actually said today, "and I don't want to cry". It is another hard thing to just let go and do.
Keep letting it out. You are doing great. Long posts help sometimes.
-D
Posted by DaisyM on December 11, 2003, at 22:45:19
In reply to Karen's rant (this n's good), posted by Karen_kay on December 11, 2003, at 15:05:33
>>>I'm afraid I'll remember something horrible and I won't have any feelings about it at all. Or maybe I liked it. Or maybe I won't remember anything at all. Or maybe I remember something and I fall apart completely
<<<Karen, I have said all of the above and more. I think all of us have these fears. Especially if we don't remember the feelings and, since it happened more than once, if we somehow instigated or perpetuated it. My Therapist reminds me that children are NEVER at fault. They want love and attention and it is OK for them to "like" that part. There is no sexual pleasure as we know it as adults. This is hard to internalize.
Don't force your memories, trust what comes. I'm working on this too. The feeling of the other shoe about to drop is sometimes soo painful, I feel like going back to complete denial. Again, my Therapist reassures me this is normal. On Monday, for the first time,he asked me a direct question about the abuse. Not a hard question even. But hearing someone else use the terms and ask about it made me want to throw up. It felt so dangerous and well -- wrong! I KNEW I was in trouble for telling. I felt totally 12 again. It was awful. Maybe that is why I've been freaked out all week. *sigh*
You will get through it. Some times are just harder than others. I'm fragile tonight but still want to offer what support I can. Angel dreams to you!
-D
Posted by Karen_kay on December 12, 2003, at 10:58:39
In reply to Re: Karen's rant (this n's good) » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 11, 2003, at 19:52:10
He didn't say much about my dreams. Just basically agreed with what I had to say about them. He keeps pushing me to talk about my dad. I know, I told him to push me. He has to push me or we won't get beyond the regular chit chat. And I suppose in a way I'm glad he pushed me. I had another dream last night. The strange thing about dreams is that they seem so very real. I awoke wondering "Was I awake, did I just remember something?" I'm fairly certain I was asleep. I don't know anymore. I was laying in bed last night trying to remember basic things about my dad and my childhood home. Strange, but my memory loss is so severe that I can't remember what my childhood house looked like and I lived there for 19 years. Well, I was laying there and I remembered what my bathroom door sounded like when it opened. It made a strange sound because it kinda rubbed against the frame when it opened. It is a horrible sound. And I also can recall watching my father bathe. I don't know why I watched my dad take a bath but I can recall exactly how he used to take a bath. Odd. Anyway, back to my dream....
I was sitting around a table with my boyfriend Andy and we were talking and I called him Glenn (that's my dad's name). As soon as I said it I was full of terror and I looked up and my dad was sitting there. The room started spinning and I got up to run and I fell on the floor and he raped me. When he was done he was on top of me and he started crying. Then I woke up.
I don't know if this has something to do with what my therapist said about crying with me or what? But I also remember walking in on my mom and dad talking once and he was crying. That was the only time I ever saw my dad cry. My mom made me leave the room. It was strange. It made me cry to see my dad crying.
Posted by DaisyM on December 12, 2003, at 15:04:25
In reply to Re: Karen's rant (this n's good), posted by Karen_kay on December 12, 2003, at 10:58:39
Wow, Karen that was a powerful dream! Did it feel familiar, or was there fear? I've had dreams about my dad crying too...I think I want him to be sorry. Remember that dreams are symbolic so they can be your biggest fears, not what actually happened. Then again...
I try to take tours in my head of the houses we lived in when I was a kid. It helps me remember stuff. I have been actively searching for a memory of the "first time" but it is hiding, maybe lost forever. Which is weird because I have such clear memories of other times, ones I've always had...consciously ignored with the self-talk of "it is in the past and doesn't matter anymore." Of course, it does...
Sounds like you are getting close to another memory. Smells and sounds are huge triggers for these things. Did your dad wear after-shave? Can you remember what it smelled like?
I think the holidays make all this even harder. Too much remembering about the past and too much family. I want to boycott this year but I have kids. Bah humbug.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 12, 2003, at 15:59:46
In reply to Re: Karen's rant (this n's good) » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 12, 2003, at 15:04:25
For some reason, the part of him laying his head on my chest and crying just seemed so very familiar to me..... God... But again the funny thing about dreams is that they can seem so familiar that they leave you wondering sometimes. It was just so strange. As soon as I said his name I knew the person was going to turn into him and I was so very scared..... And I jumped up to run and I fell down. And I knew what was coming and I couldn't stop it...I think this is the worst dream I've ever had. But, the position in the dream is the same as the flashback I had a couple (??) of months ago..
He didn't wear aftershave.... But, I did remember the bathroom door sound.. it is a start... But, I don't care either way if my dad is or isn't sorry.. I still want to deny it ever happened. I just want to start over with a new, perfect daddy, like my therapist. Yes, I think he's perfect. If my dad were alive today I don't thik I would ever speak to him. If I had to see him I would just pretend like "Everything is OK..." I just don't understand what happened? What did I do wrong? I loved my dad so very much, you really can't understand. When I started therapy even, my first day.. the worst day of my life was when my dad died. I just don't get it... I hate the stupid holidays. And I hate stupid parents who screw their kids up. All I ever did was love him, and what did he do to me in return? This is crap. Thanks dad....
Posted by DaisyM on December 12, 2003, at 23:07:25
In reply to Re: Karen's rant (this n's good), posted by Karen_kay on December 12, 2003, at 15:59:46
Karen,
So much pain...so much anger. It is good that you seem mostly angry at the right person. You DIDN'T do anything wrong. Of course you loved your dad. Like all of us, he wasn't all bad, or all good. It WAS terrible for you when he died. There is nothing wrong with missing him and hanging on to your good memories, even as you confront and deal with the bad ones.
I don't know the why -- I have wailed that same sentence myself. If I only understood why! My Therapist wants to know what that would change for me? I always tell him that I sometimes feel like I must have had some part in it -- instigated it somehow. He gets riled with me when I say this (which isn't scary, but somehow comforting) and tells me it is NEVER the child's fault!!! If I knew why, maybe I would't feel that way.
I worry all the time about what I might have done, or be doing, to my own boys. I think I've done a pretty good job with them but right now I just am not up to my usual "super mom" standard. I know it is the depression but I always try to do best by them. I always wonder what they'll talk about in therapy someday!
Celebrate your good grades and try to have a peaceful weekend. Finish your shopping. Can you do mine for me too? Be nice to yourself.
-D
Posted by Karen_kay on December 13, 2003, at 8:58:07
In reply to It's a very hard process » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 12, 2003, at 23:07:25
Shopping, what shopping? Darn it.... I haven't even started yet. I haven't even thought about it yet! One thing at a time, I always say. And finals are first for me. It's a good thing I don't have kids to buy for (other than nieces) or it might be a bad Christmas. I guess that woudl give them something to talk about during therapy, huh? "My mom forgot about Christmas entirely one year!" Oops!
I guess it isn't important to know why. But, I just don't understand. And I can understand a lot of things that my mom did because she was/is "sick". And I can forgive her for it. So, I don't hold any hard feelings. Maybe that's why I want to know... But I didn't have any bad dreams last night. Yahoo!
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 1:05:36
In reply to Karen's rant (this n's good), posted by Karen_kay on December 11, 2003, at 15:05:33
i cried for the first time a few weeks ago, after a year and a half with my T. she cried with me. it was so nice.she actually cries a lot. much more often than i do. i've only cried twice. she says sometimes she has to feeling my feelings for me.
seems kinda codependent but i like it.
> I spoke with him this morning. And I was late for the appointment. First time ever! Five minutes late and as I walked in, he was already speaking with the receptionist to see if I had called. When I got home, he had alredy called. He he :0 I feel bad though, because I stopped off for coffee on my way in. And he kinda made a comment about it (All he said was "I see you're prepared"). Well, I'm sick and the appoinment was at 8 am. We all have off days and today was mine.
> He was sick today too. And he drank hot chocolate again. And I told him how cute he looked, like a little boy. Funny, I don't feel the crush as much any more. But, I still think he's yummy. And I still want him to be my new daddy. And, I'm not giving that up either!
> I talked aobut the dreams. Just got through the first 2 though, he talks too much I think. He kept pushing me to try to remember (or visualize) my father in my head and I refused. This week my excuse is that next week is finals week. And I have to get through them without a hitch. And that will be my excuse next week. I'm full of a lot of things, mostly excuses. I haven't thought up what the next excuse will be but when it comes to me I'll let you know :)
> I think though that I'm uncomfortable actually remembering something in his presence. Lord knows I don't like telling him about things I remember. I still want to hold on to the illusion that "nothing bad ever happened to me." I guess if I can try to make others believe it, maybe I'll believe it too. And at this point my memory is so bad I still kinda think it. I guess I've reverted back to the whole denial stage once again. "Maybe I'm making everything up", "Maybe nothing happened", "Your memory has always been inaccurate, why start believing it now?", ect, ect... God, I just don't know anymore...Maybe it is the stress from finals and being sick and not knowing why I'm sick. I just don't know anymore.
> I'm afraid to cry in front of him. I'm afraid to cry period. I'm afraid I won't cry. I'm afraid I'll remember something horrible and I won't have any feelings about it at all. Or maybe I liked it. Or maybe I won't remember anything at all. Or maybe I remember something and I fall apart completely. And he puts me in the hospital again. Or I have no emotions at all and everyone realizes it. Or I realize that nothing happened at all. That I've just been confused (that would be a blessing!).
> I know, no matter what happens it HAS to be better than this... or does it???? Really?
>
> He did say something interesting today though. He said that if I started to cry it was ok. And I started in about how it is NOT ok to cry...blah blah, ect.. And he said, "I might start crying too." Is that weird? Is it common for a therapist to cry with their client? I told him it would be really odd and strange for me if he started crying too. He said that it is ok for a person to be overcome with emotion and cry. I think if he cried I would freak out. It would be sweet, but I might start laughing hysterically because I would feel very strange. What do you think?
> I'm sorry. I just started taking "the pill" and I'm sure it adds to my emotions a lot. Yahoo! I guess I do have emotions!! Thanks for listening to my rant. Just feeling a little lost and fed up at this point. It helps to get things out. Just wish I didn't have so much to get out, you know?? :) I know, it'll get better. But when, for crying out loud?? :)
Posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 8:58:40
In reply to therapist crying » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 1:05:36
But how do you react when your therapist cries? I guess I'm just not good in that type of situation. Usually if someone is crying I want to hold them to comfort them. I'm sure that isn't going to fly. I guess that's nice but I'm really hung up on feeling like "a sympathy case".
Karen
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 9:13:56
In reply to Re: therapist crying » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 8:58:40
My therapist has never once cried, or even teared up. I think I'd fall off my seat.
While I don't think anything I've ever said is particularly cry-worthy, I also doubt he cries much with clients.
He winced once. It made a huge impact on me.
Posted by noa on December 14, 2003, at 11:45:17
In reply to Re: therapist crying, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 9:13:56
I would not want my therapist to cry in my sessions. I need my therapist to be able to sit with my feelings and be empathic, but not get quite that affected. I would find it bizarre, frankly.
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 12:23:20
In reply to Re: therapist crying » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 8:58:40
i always feel touched when she cries. usually, it's not really crying exactly. her eyes just fill up with tears. it happens almost once a session! i know that sounds crazy, but i love it. sometimes i ask her why. other times, i just ignore it. she's completely present with me. i never feel like i need to take care of her, although of course i'd like to. she's just a very emotional person.
> But how do you react when your therapist cries? I guess I'm just not good in that type of situation. Usually if someone is crying I want to hold them to comfort them. I'm sure that isn't going to fly. I guess that's nice but I'm really hung up on feeling like "a sympathy case".
> Karen
Posted by Joslynn on December 14, 2003, at 12:24:56
In reply to Re: therapist crying, posted by noa on December 14, 2003, at 11:45:17
Yeah, I think I would be startled if my pdoc or therapist cried in seesion. I don't know why that is.
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 12:27:58
In reply to Re: therapist crying, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 9:13:56
Dinah,You make me laugh on a regular basis. You have an amazing dry wit.
I hope you meant to be funny here, and that I'm not offending you. You were hilarious.
crushed
> My therapist has never once cried, or even teared up. I think I'd fall off my seat.
>
> While I don't think anything I've ever said is particularly cry-worthy, I also doubt he cries much with clients.
>
> He winced once. It made a huge impact on me.
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 13:21:17
In reply to Re: therapist crying » Dinah, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 12:27:58
I'm glad I can make you laugh. :) We all need a laugh now and then.
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:29:48
In reply to How about a bit of both? » crushedout, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 13:21:17
> I'm glad I can make you laugh. :) We all need a laugh now and then.
that means i *did* offend you??? oh god, i'm sorry. i swear, i would never want to do that!
Posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 13:44:06
In reply to Re: How about a bit of both? » Dinah, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:29:48
> > I'm glad I can make you laugh. :) We all need a laugh now and then.
>
> that means i *did* offend you??? oh god, i'm sorry. i swear, i would never want to do that!I don't think you offended her. She was being sincere, I think. I'm certain :) I agree with you though. She does have an uncanny knack for very dry humor. It's great!!
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 13:45:02
In reply to Re: How about a bit of both? » Dinah, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:29:48
You didn't offend me *at all*. I just meant that I was telling the truth, but in my usual manner, which sometimes tends to be a bit... well, dry... and maybe even humorous? :)
(I think I'm not good at accepting compliments. How about a simple thank you?)
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 13:47:23
In reply to Re: How about a bit of both? » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 13:44:06
I like that view of myself. :) I'll try to keep it in mind.
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:49:02
In reply to Re: Oh, no no!!!, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 13:45:02
oh, i'm glad. you're very welcome. i'm not that good at giving compliments, so when i do, they're very sincere!:)
> You didn't offend me *at all*. I just meant that I was telling the truth, but in my usual manner, which sometimes tends to be a bit... well, dry... and maybe even humorous? :)
>
> (I think I'm not good at accepting compliments. How about a simple thank you?)
Posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 13:53:20
In reply to Re: therapist crying » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 12:23:20
> i always feel touched when she cries. usually, it's not really crying exactly. her eyes just fill up with tears. it happens almost once a session! i know that sounds crazy, but i love it. sometimes i ask her why. other times, i just ignore it. she's completely present with me. i never feel like i need to take care of her, although of course i'd like to. she's just a very emotional person.
<<<Although I think on one hand it would be great to see him cry, on the other I just wouldn't be sure how to react. It would be great to know for certain that he does in fact have some sort of ??fondness?? for my wellbeing and experiences. I guess I just tend to think that he only sees me as a name on his appointment book. So, to see (actually see!!) some emotion firsthand would be quite an experience. On the flipside I wouldn't know what to do. First of all, this is about ME!!! He'd be stealing my thunder darn it! I don't cry much and for him to cry too, I just don't know how to handle people crying. I tend to react with frustration, like "Why can't you control yourself?" And he's supposed to be able to control himself. I mean, he didn't have to live it, why in the world would he be crying about it? I might also be insulted. I don't know, if he just had tears in his eyes I think I would be sincerely overjoyed. It would show so much compassion on his part. But if he broke down sobbing, I might be tempted to slap him in the face. Knowing my lack of restraint, it might end precisely that way! Oh man, don't let him be a cry baby :)
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:54:38
In reply to Re: Oh, no no!!!, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:49:02
the other one that made me laugh out loud recently was the reality therapy for your son with his 46 items on his letter to santa!hee hee hoo hoo heh. that was a good one.
>
> oh, i'm glad. you're very welcome. i'm not that good at giving compliments, so when i do, they're very sincere!
>
> :)
>
>
> > You didn't offend me *at all*. I just meant that I was telling the truth, but in my usual manner, which sometimes tends to be a bit... well, dry... and maybe even humorous? :)
> >
> > (I think I'm not good at accepting compliments. How about a simple thank you?)
>
>
Posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 14:02:31
In reply to Re: therapist crying » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on December 14, 2003, at 13:53:20
yeah, i think you're right that it would be inappropriate for them to break down sobbing (and my current t has never done that, although she's had tears pour down her face -- the first time i cried). i actually had one therapist a long time ago who did break down completely. again, i kind of liked it. but we ended up spending almost the entire session talking about her fears and why she was crying. and i was sort of like, hmm, i'm paying you for this????but it was a bonding experience.
> > i always feel touched when she cries. usually, it's not really crying exactly. her eyes just fill up with tears. it happens almost once a session! i know that sounds crazy, but i love it. sometimes i ask her why. other times, i just ignore it. she's completely present with me. i never feel like i need to take care of her, although of course i'd like to. she's just a very emotional person.
>
> <<<Although I think on one hand it would be great to see him cry, on the other I just wouldn't be sure how to react. It would be great to know for certain that he does in fact have some sort of ??fondness?? for my wellbeing and experiences. I guess I just tend to think that he only sees me as a name on his appointment book. So, to see (actually see!!) some emotion firsthand would be quite an experience. On the flipside I wouldn't know what to do. First of all, this is about ME!!! He'd be stealing my thunder darn it! I don't cry much and for him to cry too, I just don't know how to handle people crying. I tend to react with frustration, like "Why can't you control yourself?" And he's supposed to be able to control himself. I mean, he didn't have to live it, why in the world would he be crying about it? I might also be insulted. I don't know, if he just had tears in his eyes I think I would be sincerely overjoyed. It would show so much compassion on his part. But if he broke down sobbing, I might be tempted to slap him in the face. Knowing my lack of restraint, it might end precisely that way! Oh man, don't let him be a cry baby :)
>
>
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2003, at 14:19:07
In reply to one more plug for dinah's stand-up career, posted by crushedout on December 14, 2003, at 13:54:38
I just asked my husband if I displayed dry humor. He said my humor was absolutely parched. lol. I told him I always just thought of myself as being odd. His opinion is that odd and dry humor go hand in hand, so he agreed with both assessments.
It truly genuinely is nice to see yourself from a different perspective.
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