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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 29, 2003, at 0:30:16
In reply to Memory, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 15:44:40
Piaget 100 years ago implied that memories were different for children under 10 and those over 15... Recently, computer aided research backs up his notions... NLP investigated color in memories and discovered children see incidents in color, which digress to black and white after about 4 days... Our research with drug and alcohol abusers indicates that black and white memories also are the residue of extreme trauma... If memories change from black and white to color, we intuit that the child "Colorized" (ala Ted Turner) the scenes to increase importance of themselves or the lesson learned by the incident...
When pre-teens pass through the genetic upgrade period, able to now conceptualize in three dimensions, always remember and dream in color, and store memories as pictures instead of feelings, some memories are filled in wrong during the transition... This is a theory of why memories always seem to have missing pieces when surrounding trauma, real or imagined...
Memories acquired in a delusional or dissociated state will be a mixture of real and imagined... Sad to say that your story sounds much like this... You witnessed part of it, delusions filled in some, and the rest you have tried to fill in with induction of imaginary facts and opinions... This is my experienced guess...
Sometimes the quest for knowing "why" serves as a distraction for the undisciplined impulsive mind... Your gut tells you that you have a right to know and you won't be "whole" until you do know...
You will be whole when you know you are "enough" to handle tomorrow better than you handled yesterday... What you are reluctant to accept is that you've always been "enough"... Your grumbling and obligatory thinking cloud your vision from seeing this truth about yourself...
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 8:47:53
In reply to Memory discoveries for the pre-teen » Dinah, posted by Dr. Rod on November 29, 2003, at 0:30:16
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 29, 2003, at 9:44:23
In reply to Memory discoveries for the pre-teen » Dinah, posted by Dr. Rod on November 29, 2003, at 0:30:16
I was okay with the message till this:
**Sad to say that your story sounds much like this... You witnessed part of it, delusions filled in some, and the rest you have tried to fill in with induction of imaginary facts and opinions...**
>
Now it sounds like a diagnosis from a Dr.
>
> Sometimes the quest for knowing "why" serves as a distraction for the undisciplined impulsive mind...
>
To me that comment is almost insulting.
>
You will be whole when you know you are "enough" to handle tomorrow better than you handled yesterday... What you are reluctant to accept is that you've always been "enough"... Your grumbling and obligatory thinking cloud your vision from seeing this truth about yourself...
>
what's all this "YOU" stuff? It almost sounds like Dr. Rod is posturing to be our resident psychiatrist?
>
What do you think Dr. Bob?
Posted by noa on November 29, 2003, at 11:32:42
In reply to What?!! Dr. Bob, what do you think?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 29, 2003, at 9:44:23
Dr. Rod, in my opinion, your post reads as assuming a lot that is not known to you or me or any other poster here who read Dinah's post about her memories, and some of what you wrote seems to me to have more potential for being hurtful than supportive, particulary the parts about her memories being imaginary or delusional, and the reference to an undisciplined and impulsive mind.
Perhaps you intended your post to be supportive, I don't know. I don't know you and can't know what your intentions were, but I am able to tell you how the post came across to me.
Posted by judy1 on November 29, 2003, at 11:37:23
In reply to Re: Memory » Dinah, posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 18:28:39
> It sounds dissociative, maybe to protect you from the reality of the moment. And maybe so as not to know that side of either parent because after all, you were a child and still needed your parents, so there was an investment in seeing them in their good light.noa,
I really think you captured the essence of repressing childhood memories, the fundamental need to keep your parents 'good'. for me it's 'I must be'bad', because that's the only way to explain what happened and still keep a positive picture of my parents. thanks for your insight (although meant for Dinah, it was helpful for me)- judy
Posted by judy1 on November 29, 2003, at 11:42:24
In reply to Re: Assumptions can be hurtful, posted by noa on November 29, 2003, at 11:32:42
your post came across as hurtful to me, even though it was directed to another poster- it's hurtful for those of us who share those kinds of memories. please keep that in mind when you post your thoughts- thank you, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 29, 2003, at 11:44:23
In reply to Re: Please do not post to me any further (nm) » Dr. Rod, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 8:47:53
I know it's hard to put your feelings out there and receive that kind of feedback. just wanted you to know you have my support- judy
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 12:00:08
In reply to Dinah, are you okay? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on November 29, 2003, at 11:44:23
Thanks Judy and Noa and Jai. I'm ok. I guess that's the risk you take posting here as openly as I do sometimes. I trust Dr. Bob to sort it out, and I just wanted to make it a bit easier for me to remain within the civility guidelines.
Posted by shar on November 29, 2003, at 21:10:24
In reply to Re: Dinah, are you okay?, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 12:00:08
I hope you won't tell me not to post to you again, but I thought 'Dr. Rod's' post was interesting. Not that I necessarily agree with everything in it, I do believe that *I* have similar experiences with memory to yours (and, some way too vivid), but there is much that I have 'blocked out.' In fact, most of my younger years.
So, it was interesting to read about the idea of the change between younger memories, and older ones. Of course, then, I have memories that I'm not sure if they're real (me hiding--or trying to--behind the toilet while mom raged at me and tried to get to me to beat me when I was VERY young) or dreams.
I would think your 'not recalling' which parent handed you the knife was very self-protective. You were in a position of relying on people you couldn't trust (as are we all sometimes, but rarely are we so vulnerable).
I do hope you are ok in general. Given what I know about your strength and abilities, I would guess that you know how to take care of yourself. If I can help at all, I hope you'll let me know.
Best,
Shar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 29, 2003, at 21:54:51
In reply to Re: Dinah, are you okay?, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 12:00:08
Dinah,
I never like Piaget's theories anyway...
I agree with Noa or whoever said that it was a way of repressing a bad memory because you still needed your parents. That sounds more logical to me. Hope your doing better.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 23:57:50
In reply to Re: Dinah, are you okay? » Dinah, posted by shar on November 29, 2003, at 21:10:24
I agree that the encoding of memory is fascinating, and I'd love to learn more about it.
I guess much of my concern is that I do want to believe that I haven't forgotten anything important from my past. All the memories I now posess, whatever their gaps and lapses, are ones I've always had. And I guess I want to assure myself that that's all there was, folks. It's hard to prove a negative, yet I really believe that my memories are all that happened.
I've looked around a bit, and it seems that what I'm describing are "flashbulb memories" from a "field" perspective. I'm trying to research it some more. But apparently gaps in the memories are not uncommon. And maybe Jane is right. Maybe I wasn't concentrating on who it was as much as I was on my feelings. It seems so clear that it must have been my mother. She was fond of inventive teaching moments, and this isn't so far from the things we both remember with fondness. (Like the time I had a temper tantrum and banged my doll Natalie against the wall and her eyes popped out. I was really young at the time (3 or 4) and my mother used the opportunity to teach me about consequences by really playing up how badly "Natalie" was hurt. We immediately rushed her to the "doll hospital" hastily found in the phone book and I don't believe I ever broke a toy or anything else in anger again.) I guess she just didn't realize that this was a different matter altogether. So it may have been so obvious to me that it was my mom that I didn't bother encoding it.
My mother now refuses to remember that I ever threatened suicide. She lives in her own fantasy world, and has her own memories of why I was visiting the psychiatrist. Apparently in the world according to Mom, I saw a psychiatrist because my father was insensitive. Neat trick, getting him to agree to pay for that. :P
My father remembers that my suicidal gestures are why he allowed me to visit a shrink. He remembers my hysterical threats, but views them with a mixture of amusement and contempt that I recall from back then. He doesn't remember this incident. But I only remember one parent being around, so that's means nothing except it probably was my mother.
So Jane, you are probably right (and yes, I do know how often you're right :) ). Memories are frequently gappy, and the fact that it was my mother was probably so obvious as to be irrelevant. I keep wanting to clear off my glasses and peer more closely, hoping that if I squint enough I can see it more clearly. But if I understand correctly, that's not going to happen.
I guess the really important thing about this particular memory is that I realize the connection between certain reflexive behaviors I have now and this past experience, and that I actually believe that my therapist has convinced me that he won't metaphorically offer me a knife. So theoretically I can drop the behaviors.
As for greater security or lack thereof, for the completeness of my memories, I don't suppose it means anything at all. :(
Posted by Dinah on November 30, 2003, at 10:16:23
In reply to Re: Dinah, are you okay? » Dinah, posted by shar on November 29, 2003, at 21:10:24
Shar, that sounds like an awful memory. How young were you? I have a handful of those flashbulb memories from the years before 4 1/2. All have been corroborated, as they were complete with details no one would have bothered to tell me, yet were accurate. Like I remember visiting my father in his apartment when I was 3 1/2. I remember where the sofa and lamp and the arrangement of the front room to the door. There are no photos, and no one bothered to tell me, but when I asked if it was correct, it was. So it's definitely possible.
I also have several other memories from that time period which are from an observer rather than a participant point of view. I'm not quite sure whether those are memories or long told family tales or taken from photographs. But they were all consistent with what I know from others to be true, and consistent with the stories and the pictures. So I think those are probably true memories too. Perhaps influenced by other sources. And probably a few of them are more influence than original memory by now. :)
I have several memories that are more memories of remembering than of the original event. I remember that I remembered this.
And probably the memory that influenced me most during my troubles as an adolescent was almost certainly a dream rather than a memory. From my "baby book" I see that there may have been a germ of truth to it, but I thought then, and I think now, that it was a dream.
So if your memories are in keeping of what you know of your mother and your early life, they are probably correct in all the ways that count.
If to your knowledge your mother has never behaved like that in her life, you might want to question them a bit more.
At least that's my philosophy on memories.
I'm truly sorry that you have to live with memories imprinted with fear and anger. It seems, unfortunately, that those are the most easily imprinted.
Posted by fallsfall on November 30, 2003, at 10:38:55
In reply to Re: Memories again - too long, don't bother, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 23:57:50
Of course we will "bother" to read your post. Dinah, you and your happiness and your wellbeing are important to me - and hearing (and hopefully understanding) about your memories allows me to know you better and be a better friend. I hope that will increase your happiness and wellbeing.
Besides that, however, you often have really good insights and information and interesting things to talk about. I wouldn't want to miss out on that.
As for memories, my childhood was very different from yours. All of my memories are idilic - everything was always fine at my house (even when it wasn't). I did have a few disappointments in my life, but probably fewer than "normal" people - because I didn't recognize them as disappointments since I was always told that everything was wonderful, and I believed it.
I am horrified by stories that I hear about things that parents do and say. My first reaction is to say that the rest of the world doesn't view you like that, and the rest of the world cares. But maybe that is just my Pollyanna upbringing that told me that the world was always good. I wonder, would we really want to take off the lenses of our childhood and see the world as it really is? Sometimes my sheltered world is very safe and comfortable. But my world keeps getting tears in it that let the pain in - maybe I don't want to see the real world. ...And I thought I didn't avoid and hide.
Dinah, you are loved and you are worthy and I'm glad that you are who you are and that you are here.
Posted by mair on November 30, 2003, at 10:41:43
In reply to Re: Memories again - too long, don't bother, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2003, at 23:57:50
Dinah
A couple of years ago, my therapist had me recording, at the end of each day, 3 good things about myself arising from that day and 3 good things about myself as a child. I abandoned this exercise fairly quickly because I could never really figure out what she meant about the present, and despite a concerted effort, could remember very few good things about myself from the past. I can remember a few incidents rather vividly in which I felt some emotional pain because of something a parent or a sibling did or didn't do. They sound pretty inocuous now and it's more than a little horrifying to me, as a mother, to realize that a child can take these small events so much to heart that she's still carrying them around as emotional baggage many decades later.
Most of the good memories I have ( and there are plenty of them ) are memories I share with my siblings; I don't play much of a role in those, or certainly not a major or positive role, so I can't use them to tell myself that I ever did something "good." To the contrary I'm more likely to use them to tell myself that I had a very "normal" childhood and there is no reason why I should become a depressed adult.
I don't know whether my memory lapses are selective memory or simply arise because maybe I filter out the "good", as it relates to me, and focus on the bad. I do have this uncanny ability to totally forget what transpired in a therapy session from one day to the next. My sessions very frequently begin with my therapist reminding me of where we left off. However, while these memory lapses destroy the continuity of a good discussion, my therapist points out that the lapses also enable me to function in between sessions without being overwelmed by the emotions which go along with more difficult topics.
I guess all of this is a long way of saying that I think our memories and memory lapses serve some purpose for us and because of this, the "why" is understandably important.
Mair
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 30, 2003, at 10:54:21
In reply to Re: Memories again - too long, don't bother » Dinah, posted by mair on November 30, 2003, at 10:41:43
Posted by Karen_kay on November 30, 2003, at 21:12:15
In reply to Memory, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2003, at 15:44:40
I know that I have conceivably the worst memory in history. I remember almost nothing from my childhood, with the exception of a few traumatic events. Then, I hear stories from my sisters and I'm not sure if I actually remember details or if they are false memories gained from the stories. Memory is tricky like that. (I'm not suggesting in any way that your memory is false) But, outside events do trigger memories. I've gained 2 very solid memories in the past month that I would doubt except that while speaking with a friend she said that I told her about one occassion.
I guess what I'm getting at is that when your body and mind is ready to actually know what happened you will remember who handed you the knife. There is a reason that you dissassociated (or repressed, depending on which book or journal you read) from that period of time. You were too fragile to handle what happened, as I suspect you still are today. When you are really ready to know, then you will remember. And I have no doubt you will be able to cope, as you seem to be very strong. I hope that I was able to provide a little bit of comfort to you. It is rough to remember things like that. You just have to learn from it and move on, which I'm sure you will. Good luck hun.
Karen
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 1, 2003, at 10:29:23
In reply to Memory discoveries for the pre-teen » Dinah, posted by Dr. Rod on November 29, 2003, at 0:30:16
> This is my experienced guess...
What experience is that based on? I think it would be better to clarify that if you're going to post as a Dr...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 1, 2003, at 10:47:50
In reply to Re: experience » Dr. Rod, posted by Dr. Bob on December 1, 2003, at 10:29:23
That hurt, Dr. Bob, more than the original post did.
Posted by crushedout on December 1, 2003, at 19:48:16
In reply to Re: No PBC? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 1, 2003, at 10:47:50
I'm sorry, but I find this outrageous. There have been several posts by Dr. Rod that I've found offensive (condescending, making inappropriate assuptions about the people on this board), and in a previous thread, I posted my reaction to one of his posts (in as gentle a way as I could, just letting my reaction be known trying not to be at all insulting) and *I* was told I had to be civil.But Dr. Rod can say whatever he wants with no repercussions? What is up with that?
I hope I'm not going to get reprimanded for posting my feelings now.
Posted by sadmom on December 2, 2003, at 8:00:01
In reply to Re: No PBC?, posted by crushedout on December 1, 2003, at 19:48:16
I don't read the threads started by Dr Rod or any of his postings.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:34:33
In reply to Re: No PBC?, posted by sadmom on December 2, 2003, at 8:00:01
> I don't read the threads started by Dr Rod or any of his postings.
<<<I do the exact same thing.... That way I don't take the chance of being hurt by what is read. Dinah, I'm sorry about what Dr. Rod posted. I disagree completely. That is when I decided to quit reading the posts by the "Dr." Take care hun. You must know that everyone else on here disagrees completely and wholeheartedly!!
Karen
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2003, at 19:43:50
In reply to Re: No PBC? » sadmom, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:34:33
I appreciate the support. :)
Dinah
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2003, at 3:20:38
In reply to Re: experience » Dr. Rod, posted by Dr. Bob on December 1, 2003, at 10:29:23
> > This is my experienced guess...
>
> What experience is that based on? I think it would be better to clarify that if you're going to post as a Dr...Since you haven't clarified that, I'm going to block you from posting. If you want to re-register under a different name, without any clinical implications, feel free to do so, but please then also post that you've done so over at Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2003, at 3:25:08
In reply to Re: No PBC?, posted by crushedout on December 1, 2003, at 19:48:16
> I'm sorry, but I find this outrageous. There have been several posts by Dr. Rod that I've found offensive (condescending, making inappropriate assuptions about the people on this board), and in a previous thread, I posted my reaction to one of his posts (in as gentle a way as I could, just letting my reaction be known trying not to be at all insulting) and *I* was told I had to be civil.
>
> I hope I'm not going to get reprimanded for posting my feelings now.I'm sorry, but yes, now I'm going to block you from posting for a week. It can be therapeutic to express your feelings, but this isn't necessarily the place.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 9:04:17
In reply to Re: No PBC?, posted by crushedout on December 1, 2003, at 19:48:16
Hope to see you in a week.
This is the end of the thread.
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