![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 23:30:03
In reply to Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 8:13:22
Dinah is absolutely right. And so are your colleagues you quoted. Neither of them said that the client should be dismissed for feeling that way. Both of them said that it is a good opportunity to deal with rejection issues, and that it's not the client's feelings that are the problem, it's the therapist's.
It is absolutely, positively, in no way, shape, or form, unusual or wrong to feel a strong attraction for your therapist. Someimes it's a sexual attraction, sometimes it's not. But it's usually an intense feeling of love or affection. It is genuinely a golden opporunity to deal with issues on a level which could never otherwise be accessed. I speak from personal experience.
I think you're doing a lot of damage here. There are many, many, many schools of therapy that *encourage* transference. If social work isn't one of them, then let that be a warning to us all to stay away from social workers.
Posted by Adia on October 7, 2003, at 23:45:13
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 23:30:03
Just wanted to say thanks to you Hannah and Dinah...
I've been trying to write a post and I can't find words because I feel so triggered ... silly me! :-( But this makes me so frustrated ..and it triggers so many fears.
I hang on to your words here and to what my T has shown me over the years.
It is dangerous or harmful to imply that a patient's feelings could be wrong or cause their therapist to terminate or abandon them...Just wanted to say thanks Hannah and Dinah :-)
sorry I can't contribute much
to this, it just triggers me too much...Adia.
> Dinah is absolutely right. And so are your colleagues you quoted. Neither of them said that the client should be dismissed for feeling that way. Both of them said that it is a good opportunity to deal with rejection issues, and that it's not the client's feelings that are the problem, it's the therapist's.
>
> It is absolutely, positively, in no way, shape, or form, unusual or wrong to feel a strong attraction for your therapist. Someimes it's a sexual attraction, sometimes it's not. But it's usually an intense feeling of love or affection. It is genuinely a golden opporunity to deal with issues on a level which could never otherwise be accessed. I speak from personal experience.
>
> I think you're doing a lot of damage here. There are many, many, many schools of therapy that *encourage* transference. If social work isn't one of them, then let that be a warning to us all to stay away from social workers.
Posted by judy1 on October 8, 2003, at 10:58:53
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy » HannahW, posted by Adia on October 7, 2003, at 23:45:13
as a former victim of boundary crossing by a therapist and part of the follow-up investigation by the APA, I do have some thoughts after many conversations regarding this act. transference is a normal part of a therapeutic relationship, and while not recognized nearly enough, counter-transference by the therapist is also part of it. as a client, talking about your feelings are valid and an important part of strengthening the therapeutic relationship. I have never been terminated or hurt in any way when discussing my feelings towards the numerous psycholgists/psychiatrists/ or social workers I have seen. The trouble starts when the therapist cannot control his/her counter-transference feelings. If he/she is able to recognize that these feelings exist then he/she needs to speak to a supervisor or other therapist on how to handle these feelings. Since the client always comes first, and if the therapist is unable to maintain good boundaries (there is nothing wrong with thoughts, I'm writing about inappropriate physical contact or seeing the client outside the office, etc.) then the therapist must refer the client to another therapist. I've seen nothing here (unless I missed it) about boundary crossing-e.g. the physical contact I experienced- just a lot of emotional feelings that I consider part of a good therapeutic relationship. I hope I didn't confuse things further, and these are strictly my experiences.
take care, judy
Posted by Penny on October 8, 2003, at 12:52:07
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by judy1 on October 8, 2003, at 10:58:53
And told her about this topic that was being hashed out on Psychological Babble. And her comment was that it was 'silly' to think that a therapist would terminate a client for feeling any certain way and voicing those feelings.
Granted, she's not a social worker, she's a psychologist. With many years of experience. But I know that my former therapist, a clinical social worker, felt the same way, as we discussed transference many times.
What my therapist emphasized is that the whole point of therapy is to DISCUSS those feelings, rather than acting on them. So BY ALL MEANS tell your therapist how you are feeling so you can address it in therapy via TALKING.
She did say that if the feelings on behalf of the therapist, whether good or bad, became more than the therapist could handle, then it would be the therapist's obligation to refer the patient to another therapist - b/c in such a case, those feelings would be detrimental to the therapy and the client. But this isn't usually a problem, as most therapists are trained to handle such feelings.
And I brought up my point of 'isn't that why so many therapists are in therapy?' and she said of course.
And I won't go any further with what she said, but suffice it to say that, according to MY therapist, there is NOTHING wrong with any feelings you have for your therapist, good or bad, and it is a good idea for you to share your feelings with your therapist, b/c it allows you to work through them in therapy. I would imagine this is especially important if you are feeling particularly troubled by your feelings.
And on a personal note, as someone who is planning on attending social work school to become a therapist - if a therapist gets that freaked out about a client having strong feelings toward him or her, then perhaps they are in the wrong line of work.
P
Posted by Dinah on October 8, 2003, at 13:12:03
In reply to Re: Well, I talked to MY therapist last night..., posted by Penny on October 8, 2003, at 12:52:07
Posted by Tabitha on October 8, 2003, at 14:33:04
In reply to Re: Thank you, Penny. :) (nm), posted by Dinah on October 8, 2003, at 13:12:03
tried to post before but it wouldn't work. Have we thoroughly debunked this notion yet? I'd never even heard such an idea-- and I've done a lot of reading about what's appropriate and normal and unethical in therapy. Every time I get mad at my therapist I start looking up that type of information, for clients to evaluate their therapist. I've seen over and over that it's strictly forbidden for a therapist to have a sexual relationship with a client. I've never seen jay's idea before-- that it's unethical for a therapist to see a client who talks about feelings of attraction.
If anyone has any doubts I suggest they do what Penny did and just ask their therapist.
I also take issue with the suggestion, that has also been made previously, that of all types of counselors, only social workers adhere to ethical guidelines. That simply isn't true. Psychologists and other licensed therapists such as marriage and family counselors also have ethical guidelines, and can lose their license if they violate them.
Posted by stjames on October 8, 2003, at 18:28:35
In reply to Re: Please read..Code of Ethics..right on the mark, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 22:34:07
> > Way, way off here.
>
>
> Say what???? These guidelines where originated by the International Federation of Social Workers. They (and us social workers) have the backing to realize their weight and how they are *properly* used.
>
> Jay
It is ***your**** interpretation of what they said that is way off.
>
Posted by Adia on October 8, 2003, at 23:45:08
In reply to Re: Well, I talked to MY therapist last night..., posted by Penny on October 8, 2003, at 12:52:07
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 9:54:34
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics For=== JAY, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 23:10:49
http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1122898a.html
Note that nowhere did the expert say that a client would be terminated for speaking of her feelings.
I'll post more links from professionals as I get a chance. Since I am not a professional, and so my opinion carries less weight.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 10:01:19
In reply to From an expert, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 9:54:34
Transference (female attracted to female therapists)
Marty Klein, Ph.D. · 06/30/03 at 1:33 ET
All good psychotherapy, if it lasts long enough, raises multiple feelings and fantasies about intimacy, closeness, sensuality, acceptance, and some sort of connection outside of therapy. Putting aside the therapist's projections, feelings, and needs for a moment, we call this collection of fantasies and feelings that patients have "transference."Good therapists look for signs of this phenomenon in their patients, both male and female. The dynamics are both unique in each individual, and known to have certain common configurations. Patients who experience these feelings and don't discuss them with the therapist are sabotaging the therapy. Therapists who are afraid to initiate discussions about patients' feelings are of limited effectiveness.
If you are concerned about patients being attracted to you, or you being attracted to patients, i urge you to discuss this with your supervisor. If you are uncomfortable doing so, either get a new supervisor or pay an experienced therapist in your area for a few hours' supervision on this issue.
Books that are especially insightful about this (and which are readable!) are:
* Weinberg, The heart of psychotherapy
* Solomon, Countertransference in couples therapy
* Haule, The love cure
* Mann, Psychotherapy: an erotic relationship
I could go on and on. There must be thousands of professionals out there saying the same thing.
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 10:21:33
In reply to Re: From another expert » Dinah, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 10:01:19
Thanks, Dinah.
I just posted another response to Jay on PBA. Here's the link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031008/msgs/267266.html
P
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 10:35:47
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 10:59:55
> Here is some further discussion on transference from a discussion site.
You pulled this from the site therapy-abuse.net
http://www.therapy-abuse.net/information/messages/transference_or_reality.htm
Are you inferring that most therapists abuse the power they gain through transference?
> -----
> Transference or reality?
>
> If a client has strong feelings of attraction for his or her therapist, then conventional psychoanalytic doctrine automatically labels these as "transference", that is, the feelings are not really how the client feels about the therapist, but how the client feels about other people who are, or have been, important in the client’s life.
>
> But how can anyone know whether these feelings would not have arisen outside the therapeutic relationship? If the client believes that he or she would have fallen in love with the therapist if they had met in a normal social setting, who has the evidence to show that the client is wrong? Kay is absolutely convinced that her feelings of love for her therapist were genuine.
>
> To this day, I still wonder about that so-called phenomenon called "transference". As much as I have read and learned, there's something in my case that has never changed -- and that is the truth -- that I truly fell in love with my therapist and he knew it. What has been difficult in my healing is to accept the fact that he did take advantage of the so-called "transference", and whether it was only "transference" or if it was "real", he abused me by "acting out" my love for him through the guise of a combined therapy/dual relationship. The man even told me he knew my love for him was "beyond transference" and that we would always have a close relationship even after therapy was over. He testified that he knew and believed that I believed I was really in love with him. Transference? Countertransference?
>
> I wonder.
>
> Alex also offers a counterexample: she has seen many therapists but never yet fallen in love with any of them:
>
> The therapeutic relationship is the only occasion in which feelings for each other receive special names, "transference" and "countertransference", and that's the reason why sometimes I think it's the most neurotic relationship of all.
>
> It is perfectly possible and normal to fall in love with somebody you feel understood by, cared for etc. I have seen many therapists but I have never fallen in love with any of them. If one day I do, why is that called "transference"? Such a generic name for a specific feeling. Nobody would doubt me if I said I had fallen in love with my neighbor, who is cute and talks to me for 15 minutes a day when we are opening our doors to enter our homes. But if I claim I have fallen in love with a therapist then it is transference.
>
> I am not saying that transference does not exist but that sometimes the term transference can be called up to protect the therapist’s responsibilities for awakening in you, and feeding, feelings of love.
>
> If he calls it transference he is dealing with you as a client with problems. If he calls it love he is dealing with a woman's feelings. [To Kay] If your therapist had a dual relationship with you, then for him to call your feelings "transference" is a cowardly way to refer to them.
>
> Natalie is in the process of being converted by Alex to believe in biological factors that explain what seems to be an unlikely attraction between client and therapist. She writes:
>
> Alex and I had a discussion about a month ago which I’m summarising here in case anyone finds it interesting.
>
> …I wrote, "Why does an independent, attractive woman in a stable relationship fall hopelessly and painfully in love with a greying, balding therapist who is old enough to be her father?" [The answer, I said, was transference].
>
> Alex pointed out two things: firstly, that my question could be considered to be offensive because it could be taken to imply that nobody would normally want to be in a relationship with someone who was unattractive; and secondly, that many women do have relationships with older men, and that there isn’t necessarily anything wrong with that. As a biologist, she reminded me that although there is an evolutionary drive for men to prefer younger, fertile, partners, the same does not apply to women, since men are fertile way beyond the age when female fertility stops. In fact, the woman might well have the drive to choose a mate with power and status rather than youth or good looks. Therefore it’s not such an unnatural thing for a female client to fall in love with her therapist.
>
> I felt she had a good point there. In fact, I thought my therapist was still very attractive – it was he who kept going on about his hair, or lack of it.
>
> What I wanted to express was the inappropriateness of the attraction…I think it would be interesting to know whether an erotic transference between a female client and a male therapist is more likely than between a male client and a female therapist.
>
> Syd gives an example of a relationship outside therapy between a young girl and an older man.
>
> Very interesting discussion. I have heard that there is a definite biological component for attraction that we work on at an instinctive level. But maybe due to my naivety, not knowing all the physiological workings, I sometimes think there are other psychological components such as the Electra complex. I have a young friend who is 19 years old. She's intelligent and beautiful. She could probably get the attention of any young man, but she has been involved in a relationship with a 50 year old. Her parents are still having a hard time with that.
>
> I have talked to her on occasions about her relationship with her father and she always tears up. Even though I am not qualified to diagnose, I do feel there is a need being fulfilled by that man that her father never gave her. Her parents are professional people and have an active social life. But what Alex said could explain that attraction, biologically. Also I think that a great majority who go to therapy will have transference if they establish trust with any therapist...a mother figure...father figure...whatever. We are needy when we go to therapy and so we become vulnerable…It is ethically the responsibility of the therapist to de-escalate the situation. Unfortunately there are therapist who have counter transference. They want to rescue [the client]…I do know that there are therapists who are in this role in order to work out their own issues.
>
> Rosie also finds counterexamples, saying that the attraction between therapist and client may seem like sexual attraction, but is not caused by the sexuality of the people involved; it is a different kind of relationship that needs to be examined separately from normal sexual relationships if it is to be understood.
>
> Regarding Natalie’s discussion with Alex about the dynamics of client-therapist attraction, I’d like to suggest that considering it as just another instance of the standard man-woman relationship fudges the issue. The feelings generated in the client by the therapy situation are, it is true, very similar to romantic/sexual desire but often do not correspond with either the sex or the sexual orientation of the persons involved. Thus a fully heterosexual woman may find herself obsessed by another woman, and a male client may be similarly attached to a male therapist.
>
> Unless we recognise the wholly particular nature of the client-therapist relationship we cannot begin to fathom it. I have a few theories about it, as yet undeveloped. Could it be, for example, that both sexual desire and the desire generated in therapy stimulate some pleasure centre in the brain? And once this stimulation starts, could it be that its cessation causes us to suffer withdrawal symptoms like those of an addict deprived of his drug?
>
> My own experience - a craving for complete and exclusive union with my therapist - felt consistent with the notion that in therapy we relive our early relationship with our mother, even from the time we spent in the womb. It could equally well be consistent with something else; if, for example, individual beings are all part of some kind of cosmic consciousness, it could be that therapy puts us in contact with this in some way and that we then feel the desire to be re-subsumed into it.
>
> Does anyone have any comments to make on these ideas, or any different ones of their own?
>
> PPJMB believes that his attraction for her therapist is justified by the therapist’s good qualities, but at the same time he perceives that there is something unreal and disturbing about the feelings he is experiencing.
>
> I am new to this discussion, and I am very impressed by the quality of the submissions. I look forward to seeing more.
>
> I am a heterosexual male in psychoanalysis with a female analyst who, from all appearances, seems heterosexual as well. I find her extraordinarily beautiful, and I think my judgment in this respect would be shared by most men who value taste, intelligence, and delicacy. I don't mean to sound superior or sexist: I believe, though, that my sexual attraction with the therapist is NOT simply a function of the therapeutic relationship or the transference.
>
> For example, I have often thought-- and told my analyst-- that I cannot imagine having this kind of experience with a male therapist, or with a woman who lacked this combination of beauty and overpowering intelligence. I think I would have experienced this same attraction to even if she weren't my analyst. And I've been seeing her four days per week for several years, so I don't think this is a temporary or passing infatuation.
>
> Am I being foolish? I certainly worry that I am: that I am slipping deeper into unreality and illusion. Analysis tends to do that to you, I think.
>
> What should I do? Ignore it? Ride it out? "Explain it away" in that most annoying way that psychoanalysis has?
>
> One thing for sure: the presence of these feelings, and my candid expression of them to my analyst, has raised the stakes at risk in the process. Whatever happens, I expect to receive a serious blow to my self eventually.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Rosie brings the discussion back to feelings of attraction between client and therapist that would not be thought of as being justified by their personal qualities or sexuality.
>
> There have been some interesting responses to my last posting. Kay and PPJMB both talk of having feelings about their therapists which they believe would have been generated (or were generated) in a normal social setting. However, if therapist-client relationships always followed this kind of pattern the notion of transference would probably never have come into existence.
>
> The point I want to emphasise is that, much more often, the therapist-client couple does not correspond to one in which this kind of attraction would normally arise. The fact that it does arise in the most unlikely circumstances is what makes me so curious about what exactly is going on. My first therapist, for example, was a dowdy, down-to-earth matronly figure in her early fifties, yet I was obsessed and besotted with beyond all measure. Pierre Rey, in writing of his analysis with Jacques Lacan, says that if Lacan had offered him a 20-second meeting with him at the opposite side of the world for a fee of 20,000,000 francs he would have found the money and gone. Tilman Moser, in his book Years of Apprenticeship on the Couch, describes equally aberrant examples of his aching desire for his (male) therapist. And there are countless others in the stories that many therapees have to tell.
>
> Another thing which distinguishes the therapy relationship from a romantic one is the regression which often manifests itself in the therapee’s behaviour - thumb-sucking, baby voice, and other childish mannerisms, accompanied of course by the feeling of having travelled back in time to a very young age. As well as this, there is often a dreamlike quality to the therapy which can take over one’s whole life so that the therapee is living in what amounts to an altered state of consciousness.
>
> Does all of this strike any chords for anyone?
>
> Kay replies:
>
> Nope, not for me. As I said, I was in love with HIM -- in and out of therapy. Maybe the focus should be on the damage and confusion from a dual relationship, instead of just the transference itself. No doubt in my case -- it all colluded -- in and out of therapy. And HE even told me toward the end, "the personal and professional collided". Of course, I didn't know what that meant at that time -- and he avoided trying to explain it to me; he avoided all attempts on my part to try to resolve the whole thing with him.
>
> Alex points out the conflicts between biological forces and social expectations. These can create confusion about what is "natural" and "unnatural".
>
> I have in mind, but that is a very personal opinion, that we tend to be confused between those two things: a pathological or psychological problem, and something socially undesirable. Like the case you cited about the 50 year old man and the teenager. As animals we are programmed to do certain things, or putting it another way, we do have a biological potential, which is molded by the culture in which we grow up. In some cultures it is desirable to give your daughter in marriage to an older man, who has accumulated wealth and can protect her and give her children (because that's what men are originally for :), and old men can do it as well, or better, depending on the situation). In our society, we aim to have many things in common and share a living and our children remain dependent for much longer. Things change fast and two consecutive generations have not much in common. In the first case, i.e., in a more "primitive" society, the term "Electra complex" would be totally meaningless (see, I am not saying Freud is wrong, or whatever, just trying to sort things out).
>
> Although I agree that therapist/client relationship is different than any other, it is also molded by biological and social constraints. And what makes the relationship really, but really different, is its very unnatural nature. No other relationship in the world equals this one, as far as I am aware. And as all unnatural things, it can trigger some unnatural reactions.
>
> See the situation. We lock two people potentially attractive to each other in a room, for up to several hours a week. They have only to pay attention to each other, and to themselves. The result we call "transference and counter-transference", without even thinking twice. It might be, but it might be simple attraction as well, why not? Healthy, natural attraction. The next thing we see is that the poor patient going crazy. Because he/she has received some cues from his/her therapist that say, "I am attracted to you too" (and those cues can be pheromones, certain kinds of eye contact, coloration of the skin etc., or even verbal comments, as in Natalie's case) together with this less pleasant message: "no, you are not really attracted, it cannot be because I am older, because I have thin hair, because I like baseball and you do not etc., so let's play "neurotic transference".
>
> Natalie wonders if relationships in therapy follow the same patterns as relationships between people in normal social settings:
>
> I've been looking at relationships in psychology and I think the following things are worth noting:
>
> 1. Maybe for everyone there is one person in the world who is the ideal partner. But most of us probably never find that person. The probability of meeting that person is simply too low. So we settle for "the best we can get". Many, many studies have shown that we pick our friends from the people who are located nearest to us (the person sitting at the next desk, the student occupying the next room). Studies of marriage licences have shown that most marriages are between people living a short distance away from each other.
>
> So, I think that the fact that the therapist is seen frequently might be a factor in triggering these biological urges. As Alex says, "We lock two people potentially attractive to each other in a room, for 1 to several hours a week. They have only to pay attention to each other, and to themselves." Well, imagine that a man and woman were the only inhabitants of an island. Biologically, it would make sense for them to form a relationship - if they do not, then their genes die out. I think that we have this drive built into us - if someone is convenient and there's nothing obviously wrong with them, then go for it!
>
> 2. The human child has a long childhood and needs protection. It is advantageous for its parents to have a strong bond to keep them together until the child can fend for itself. One way in which we form the bond is by mutual self disclosure. We tell our prospective partners things that we would not tell anyone else. This gives the other person power over us, so we have an interest in staying faithful to them.
>
> In the therapy situation, the self-disclosure is unparalleled. Perhaps the very act of performing self-disclosure triggers the sex drive, since the way is being prepared for a relationship?
>
> Rosie, I know this is by no means the full story. But I think it helps to look at the biological side of things - the urges that we can expect to be awakened anyway, whatever the "therapy" consists of. I am becoming more and more attracted to analysing human behaviour from an evolutionary point of view. I know this will not tell me everything that I need to know, but I think it does lead the way to some very interesting considerations.
>
> Alex does not share Natalie’s views about the power associated with self disclosure, though she thinks it is unnatural to be expected to self disclose to someone who does not respond in kind.
>
> I agree that self disclosure calls for intimacy. I think it is unnatural that I disclose myself to somebody that remains a "blank screen", or whatever one wants to call. But I disagree some that self disclosure is necessarily tied to sexual desire. I often found it easier to disclose myself to a close friend than to a lover. There is a lot of self disclosure between heterosexual women in friendships, for example...
>
> The power the partners have over each other are more "external" to the relationship itself. In most cases, material dependency, and a lot of social constraints...What I have told my husband so far does not make a difference in my decision to divorce, but a bunch of social constraints which were implanted on my mind during all my life can make much more difference.
>
> But of course self-disclosure gives some sort of pleasure. When it can be done properly, it can give a lot of pleasure.
>
> I think it signals a relationship of some kind, not necessarily involving sex. And the frustrating result is that there is no factual relationship. This fact frequently made me feel annoyed and confused. I think therapy is a great place to learn something about ourselves but I never could get real emotional support from it, once there is no real contact with the therapist…
>
> In my opinion saying that we need to have things in common or real intimacy for feeling attracted or aroused by somebody else is a misconception. Sexual attraction is MORE PRIMITIVE, evolutionary speaking, than intimacy. Sex without intimacy is natural, and happens everywhere. Including the therapy room, whether we like it or not.
>
> Syd wonders if making sure that the client and therapist are the same sex might eliminate some of the problems of overwhelming attraction between them:
>
> Great thoughts Natalie!
>
> I was also thinking that since we are talking about the male and female thing and the biological components of attraction the simple remedy for many of us would be to consider not having a male therapist when there is a female client or a female therapist when there is a male client. Men with men and women with women. At least from that stand point we would avoid the possibilities of having those pheromones, etc., kick in and then find ourselves in a situation of greater pain than when we went into therapy. Does that sound stupid?
>
> Alex thinks that this suggestion might work sometimes, but that there is more to it than that:
>
> I think it is somewhat an oversimplification of the problem, but might work sometimes, for some people. I think that being able to handle the problems that arise in therapy is part of the social skills we have to practice anyway, in order to live in society .. Being aware that problems may arise, and keeping your eyes wide open for some signs might suffice for most people...
>
> Some of us have problems when working with therapists our own sex, for one reason or another, too.
>
> A list member suggests:
>
> Could it be that the feelings attributed to the therapist, in the transference, belong to a preverbal period? e.g. between mother and baby in the very early weeks where for the baby the feelings are all encompassing (including sexual) and all consuming (body, mind and spirit) as discussed by Winnicott? The craving for the breast and being one with the mother?
>
> Alex would like some evidence of such a theory:
>
> Yes, it could be. As with many things in psychology: they "could be". Well, many of our emotional reactions have a preverbal COMPONENT anyway. I want to see these hypotheses submitted to some kind of a test.
>
> Where does this idea come from, that a baby wants to become one with the mother? I can imagine that the baby cannot differentiate himself, or herself, from the mother. But to be willing to become one with somebody else, we need first to be differentiated from this "somebody else".
>
> I really have a hard time understanding some concepts in psychology...
>
>
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics For=== ALL, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 22:50:29
I said I would report accurately anything I discovered. I still think I and the others are right in theory. And I would still hope that the vast majority of therapists would not abandon their clients for the "offense" of expressing loving feelings.
But there appear to be enough therapists who are afraid of the erotic transference, and will transfer out a client who expresses one, that expressing an erotic transference to your therapist is risky if you fear abandonment.
My new advice would be:
There is nothing at all shameful in any feelings you might have towards your therapist. It is relatively common, and a relatively natural outcome of the therapeutic situation. But if you are going to share your feelings with your therapist, be aware that you are running the risk of your therapist referring you on. Be very sure you are willing to take that risk before being that vulnerable with your therapist.
So with that, I adjourn. Very much saddened.
P.S. It is still not an ethical requirement that a therapist refer on such a patient, and referring on a patient still reflects a lack of ability on the therapist's part to handle it, not any fault of the patient.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:21:21
In reply to Re: Uncle! » jay, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
If you are going to be vulnerable and admit to an erotic transference, you should order the video Penny suggested
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310570.html?CFID=2493388&CFTOKEN=89863392
And give it to your therapist to watch a few weeks ahead of time.
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 14:35:40
In reply to But perhaps....., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:21:21
> If you are going to be vulnerable and admit to an erotic transference, you should order the video Penny suggested
>
> http://www.apa.org/videos/4310570.html?CFID=2493388&CFTOKEN=89863392
>
> And give it to your therapist to watch a few weeks ahead of time.
<chuckle>My feelings, however, are a bit different - I agree that perhaps you should be wary of being completely open about your feelings with your therapist, if you are afraid of being abandoned...
BUT
if your therapist terminates b/c you express strong feelings for him or her, then *perhaps* you are better off...
b/c, IMO, those feelings are something that need to be dealt with IN the therapeutic relationship, as part of the therapeutic relationship - and therapists shouldn't be running from them...
P
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:42:58
In reply to Re: Uncle! » jay, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
Thanks for sharing Dinah..
That's very sad.. I agree that transference may scare some therapists that lack the training to deal with it, I think like you that if a therapist leaves a patient because of the way a patient feels and because the patient shares or discloses those feelings, it just shows that the therapist lacks the experience or training and doesn't realize how much damage they can be doing to the patient by discouraging them to keep their feelings hidden for fear of being abandoned. I guess the best thing is to know this before entering therapy..i would definitely stay away from those therapists who are afraid of a patient's feelings...
Jay mentions how transference could be damaging for abuse survivors...
I understand that some therapists cross boundaries and may hurt a patient...
But I don't think that "keeping transference low" is the best for abuse survivors...On the contrary...
I have been feeling this in my heart since I read that post and I just wanted to share..that being an abuse survivor..if my therapist were to leave me because of my feelings for her, or because I express my feelings that would be doing me so much harm, because it would be enforcing the belief that my feelings are wrong and that there is something wrong in how I feel that causes others to leave me or hurt me. All my life I've been told my feelings are not okay and I shouldn't show any emotion because I would be punished in the worst way for feeling, and I would expect that therapy should help me to challenge that belief and to start believing that my feelings are OK no matter what and that I can express how I feel without the fear of being abandoned/punished.I feel sad that that's Jay's view in treating abuse survivors..I feel that those people like me would be losing so much again ...if they go to therapy hoping to feel supported and to feel safe and accepted for the first time in their lives, and then be abandoned because they express their feelings to their therapists. I am sorry, but I think that could be of help to an abuse survivor who is desperately needing to feel accepted (completely- including feelings) and supported and to feel like a whole person deserving of care and acceptance.
(there are some therapists who abuse their patients yet again, and cross boundaries and that is very very wrong and abusive)Just wanted to say that..
Fortunately, there are lots of therapists out there who welcome transference as an opportunity to help the patient grow and to enrich therapy.
I have asked my therapist about this in the past, and she has never said that she would leave me because of anything I could feel. That I could tell her whatever I felt for her, no matter what. I have tried really hard to convince myself it is ok to share feelings...and that there's no shame in them. She has reassured me all the time that it is perfectly okay to feel and tell her what i feel for her, and that it is all part of the process.
I can see how erotic transference may be hard to handle for those therapists without experience or training. But still, I can't think how keeping those feelings hidden could be of help...
All this just makes me aware that there are lots of therapists who get scared of a patient's feelings (and lack the training to know what to do or how to react) and they may do more harm than good.I wouldn't want patients to feel they don't have to talk about their feelings for their therapists..
and that crossing the line and putting those feelings into words is the 'sin' of therapy (as Jay has said in another post).
If a therapist can't handle those feelings it doesn't mean it is wrong or was wrong for the patient to put them into words..For me it means that the therapist is not trained or experienced.
It saddens me that it seems some therapists think this way :o(Just my thoughts and feelings...
Adia.
> I said I would report accurately anything I discovered. I still think I and the others are right in theory. And I would still hope that the vast majority of therapists would not abandon their clients for the "offense" of expressing loving feelings.
>
> But there appear to be enough therapists who are afraid of the erotic transference, and will transfer out a client who expresses one, that expressing an erotic transference to your therapist is risky if you fear abandonment.
>
> My new advice would be:
>
> There is nothing at all shameful in any feelings you might have towards your therapist. It is relatively common, and a relatively natural outcome of the therapeutic situation. But if you are going to share your feelings with your therapist, be aware that you are running the risk of your therapist referring you on. Be very sure you are willing to take that risk before being that vulnerable with your therapist.
>
> So with that, I adjourn. Very much saddened.
>
> P.S. It is still not an ethical requirement that a therapist refer on such a patient, and referring on a patient still reflects a lack of ability on the therapist's part to handle it, not any fault of the patient.
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:50:11
In reply to Re: But perhaps....., posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 14:35:40
Hi Penny,
thank you for sharing...
I completely agree...If I disclose my feelings and my therapist leaves me (I have huge abandonment issues) then maybe I would be better off, because I can't see how a therapist that runs away from feelings could be of any help.
I too believe those feelings are part of the relationship and the whole process, and should be talked about and worked through and a good therapist should welcome them as an opportunity for growth...
I feel sad to see that some therapists don't believe this...I feel they are the ones missing how therapy truly should work..they may lack the training or experience..I would stay away from a therapist who is afraid of a patient's feelings and who thinks patients should keep those feelings to themselves..Thanks for sharing,
Adia.> if your therapist terminates b/c you express
> b/c, IMO, those feelings are something that need to be dealt with IN the therapeutic relationship, as part of the therapeutic relationship - and therapists shouldn't be running from them...
>
> P
>
>
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:54:17
In reply to Re: Uncle! » Dinah, posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:42:58
Meant to say just the opposite!
I am sorry, but I CAN'T think how that could be of help to an abuse survivor who is desperately needing to feel accepted (completely- including feelings) and supported and to feel like a whole person deserving of care and acceptance.
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 15:23:08
In reply to don't know where my mind is! sorry, I meant to say, posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:54:17
I guess maybe we ARE the lucky ones - perhaps that could be a question for those who are looking for a new therapist - ask them up front how they handle transference issues? (for those who have never been in therapy - trust me - this is a subject that is likely to come up at some point, whether you use the term 'transference' or not!)
As for those currently in therapy who don't know how your therapist would react - I hope you are as fortunate as I have been. My therapist is very accepting of being 'loved'.
And I hope that, some day, when I am a therapist, I will handle those situations with the grace and professionalism that my therapists and pdoc have handled them with. All the more reason to continue with my own therapy...
P
Posted by Tabitha on October 9, 2003, at 15:25:24
In reply to Re: Uncle! » jay, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
Dinah I think it depends on the type of therapy and training of the therapist. When you and I say 'therapy' we're thinking of long-term, open-ended, interpersonal work. Those types of therapies include the client's feelings toward the therapist as part of the work-- so it's desirable and even necessary to voice them. And I still think any therapist who's skilled in keeping good emotional boundaries with their clients would be able to handle such a disclosure. They wouldn't want to encourage an attraction or act on it of course-- but it wouldn't be a taboo topic of discussion.
My therapist encourages me to tell her any of my feelings toward her. She still manages to keep her 'self' out of the room and keep the focus on me and my feelings. Usually discussing my feelings toward her only takes part of the session, then it feels resolved for me and we go on to my stuff. I'm amazed at her skill in this regard. I know almost nothing about her and her feelings, yet I still feel attached and cared for. I have not developed an erotic transference or a love obsession during our therapy. I don't know if that's me or her skill-- but I think her skill at keeping the focus on me has a lot to do with it.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
In reply to Re: Uncle! » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 9, 2003, at 15:25:24
I am so depressed. I had always hoped that if you plunk down your money for a trained professional, you got someone who was trained in the usual situations that crop up in his/her profession.
Well, I do. And I'm glad you guys do. I wish everyone did. But as usual, I'm mad at my therapist for the action of other therapists. :)
You're absolutely right on all counts, all of you. And you rather especially Adia.
I'm kind of glad now that I never had a sexualized transference. Although I'm sure he would have handled it just fine.
Siiiiiigggghhhhh.
I'm going to go sit on my closet floor. Then get a few copies of that video and donate it to my university libraries.
Posted by Tabitha on October 9, 2003, at 19:09:16
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Dinah Hon, I wish I could pluck you off that closet floor and drop you into a world full of skilled compassionate therapists who never fail their clients, and wise and just internet board moderators. But I can't.
I did however bring this one issue to my therapist. I said there's someone saying that if a client tells their therapist they're attracted to them, the therapist is ethically required to terminate. She looked puzzled for a second and said matter of factly 'That's wrong.'
Posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 19:17:59
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Dinah, I can't stand that you're not posting anywhere but here. Please reconsider. I sincerely doubt that you-know-who even cares if people are mad at him.
I think everyone has pretty well shown that disclosure of strong feelings for your therapist is no mortal sin, and no responsible therapist would even consider terminating except if he/she couldn't handle his/her own emotions.
You've done a wonderful job here. Thank you for your diligence. I hope your therapist realizes how lucky he is to have you. I know I/we do.
Posted by karen_kay on October 9, 2003, at 19:44:33
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All » Dinah, posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 19:17:59
Jay, I find it disgusting that you would even mention the possibility of a therapist abandoning a client for expressing their attraction torwards the therapist. I personally have told my psychologist things like "Can I sit on your lap?" when he mentioned the aspect of reparenting. When he hospitalized me I said that a more appropriate option would be for him to hold me down all weekend. I tell him all the time how good he looks. I told him on the first consultation that I have a serious problem with becoming attracted to authority figures. I am completely innappropriate torwards my therapist. Yet, he has never once asked me to leave his office. This is because he is comfortable in the fact that he is a professional and can handle issues of sexual attraction and transference. You should not post notices with the intent of scaring people into not being completely honest with their therapists. A good a professional therapist should be capable of handling issues of transference. So people, I urge you to say what you need to! They can handle it. That is why they make the big bucks!
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Maybe I'll drag myself back to life.
Sorry Penny for stealing your link.
Here's a link to the whole thread
I feel a little better now (or is it the klonopin).
Go forward in thread:
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