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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:12:26
My T was talking about self esteem today, and said that it's on a continuum with narcissism, and the goal was to be somewhere in the middle, with some healthy narcissism and a good dose of humility. That got me thinking, and it set us off on that topic.
Right now, as some of you know, I'm taking a math class. (Summer class, so *very* intensive.) I'm seeing EVERYTHING in terms of graphs, Cartesian coordinates, etc. So, when she said that, and I thought about it for a moment, I realized that I have been hopping around on a slightly different continuum: between lack of self esteem, and lack of humility. The thing with needing *perfect* grades, after all, is one expression of a lack of humility, but it's not narcissism. If it was narcissism, I'd think that I *deserved* perfect grades, because I was so good the standards should be based on my performance. Instead, I work at getting perfect grades, because it's the only way I can try to show that I'm Good Enough. (Yeah, Good Enough is kinda a theme, ain't it?) So, it's not narcissism, but it's also not humility.
Our new goal is to put me on the continuum from lack of self esteem and narcissism, near where it intersects with moderate humility.
I thought I'd throw that out there so others could comment on it.
(Oh, and about that theme? One of my mothers adages -- very, very often heard when I was growing up -- was, "Good Enough Never Is." It's hard to get over that. Every time I say, "Well, it's Good Enough," I feel as though I have to go back and do it again, to get it Right.)
Posted by cloudydaze on July 20, 2006, at 18:29:15
In reply to Self esteem? And humility..., posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:12:26
This reminds me of Aristotle's talk of courage.
He said that the virtue courage was the mean between cowardice and carelessness.
So, virtue is the mean between two vices?
Everything is about balance, at least that's how i see the world (Aristotle is the man).
here's an aristotle link:
xhttp://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/ARIST.HTM
> My T was talking about self esteem today, and said that it's on a continuum with narcissism, and the goal was to be somewhere in the middle, with some healthy narcissism and a good dose of humility. That got me thinking, and it set us off on that topic.
>
Posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 16:54:10
In reply to Self esteem? And humility..., posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:12:26
I like this idea of a continuum. It reminds me of something my husband's T said to him a few years back. *note* I forced him to see a T because he had bad insomnia and was denying any anxiety or psychological cause for insomnia.
After much probing and 6 sessions, they came to the conclusion that if he loved himself any more he'd be an *sshole. which is absolutely true. thank GOD for his healthy self-esteem. In his career, he'd be crushed if not for a very healthy sense of self-esteem. Most of his peers have unfortunately gone into the narcissistic side of self-esteem, which makes them most unpleasant to be around. The other thing that happens is that the narcissists are frequently dissappointed that things don't work out exactly correctly, and that sometimes they are revealed to be mere mortals afterall. (and they don't have many coping mechanisms for this, since they've always been the "best")
-ll
Posted by Phillipa on July 21, 2006, at 20:59:28
In reply to Re: Self esteem? And humility... » Racer, posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 16:54:10
I broke the habit of perfect grades when taking microbiology. The professor had almost the whole class on benzos. This was before SSRI's. I had straight A's at the time. Well one morning I went to class and another older student had been up all night studying as she had to have an A. One look at how bad she looked and I said to myself. Okay this time I'll accept a B. I got my B barely the only B in college. She got her A the only A and crashed. So I learned That it was okay to accept less than a perfect grade. Oh I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time. But she showed me what could happen with perfectionism. Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 14:23:58
In reply to Self esteem? And humility..., posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:12:26
I don't know how well common sense and ratioality work in the mind. TS Eliot was good on humility. You know East Coker, from "Four Quartets"? Not to everyone's taste, I guess. He talks a lot about humility and surrender. The less appealing parts (Little Gidding) suggest that love is the cause of our suffering, but I take that as him wanting to be difficult, so I'm thinking that instead of things that make sense like graphs and continuums between narcissism and humility it might work rather differently, like all the spiritual people say....except that you lose your life you will not find it, that sort of thing.
Posted by finelinebob on August 19, 2006, at 22:53:18
In reply to Self esteem? And humility..., posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:12:26
Bah! on continuums. or continua, if you prefer.
I loved how the "most renowned expert on bipolar disorders" Kay Jamison wrote in An Unquiet Mind how she disliked "bipolar" as opposed to "manic-depressive", the implication of "bipolar" being that depression and mania are at opposite ends of a continuum. So, how do you explain mixed states if "bipolar" is truely bi-polar?
Besides, Racer, you're already thinking in multiple dimensions if you're seeing graphs. Most people think of lines and Likert scales when "continuum" rears its nasty little heads. Especially research psychologists who popularize these views. Makes for easy hypothesis testing, easy questionnaire design and you don't have to pay extra for the multivariate and non-linear analysis packages for SPSS (stats program, for those who don't know it).
What if all these different character traits were independent variables, so that if one went up or down, nothing need happen to any of the others? (Well, for one, I'd be oversimplifying in an equal but opposite direction to putting things on continua.)
I've long had a great deal of faith in myself. For much of that time, I also despised myself. I recall a time when that faith in myself earned some "public" (within my "community", not in general) noteriety and anonymous justification. My humility plummetted as a result and, when I saw that happen, my self-loathing lept to new heights.
The funny thing is that self-vilification made me step out of the spotlight. Doing so was an act to restore the humility I valued, but it didn't make much of a dent on my self-loathing. All throughout this, I lost no faith myself regarding my abilities and accomplishments in what drove this whole soap opera.
You can't map that to a line or a plane. Sounds more like at least a 3-dimensional, non-Euclidean space.
Continua are nice conventions for simplifying complex issues. More often than not, tho, they're fictions. If you want to set up a continuum to examine a relationship, be careful of what you choose to oppose. If narcissism and humility are on a continuum, you can't have a "positive" "balance" of both.
But you know that already, Racer. End of paragraph 2. Being "Good Enough" is neither narcissism nor humility. And that means you're a couple steps ahead of your T on this one ;^).
This is the end of the thread.
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