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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Hombre on May 23, 2010, at 23:00:21
I have been experimenting with some commonly available Chinese patent herb formulas to supplement my medication and vitamin regimen. I am lucky in that they are available locally and at about $2 per ~8 day supply. But they are available online as well. This site seems to have good prices and lots of information in general. I do not vouch for them, however, since I've never ordered from them:
http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/default.htm
I also don't recommend you take these formulas, since they might not work for you. But hopefully you'll gain a little insight into how one might go about using Chinese medicine and find some benefit.
Liu Wei Di Huang Wan (6 Flavor Rehmannia Pill)This is a Yin tonic that primarily nourishes the Yin of the liver and kidney systems according to Chinese medical theory. The "kidneys" are the root of the body's energy. They store vital essence (i.e. concentrated energy as matter) and affect the marrow, bones, and brain (there is some corroboration with modern science there). A deficiency in Yin and/or Yang of the kidneys will affect one's overall energy.
Yin represents the negative polarity of things. Dark, solid, wet, substantial. Yang represents the positive polarity. Light, insubstantial, dry, etc. Think of it this way: Consider a fire. Yin is the wood. Yang is the flame. Too much wood, you may snuff out the fire. This would be a Yang deficiency. You feel cold, want to drink hot fluids, you have no energy, you don't move much. Too much flame, you burn up the wood. this is very common. This would lead to a Yin deficiency. Maybe adrenal fatigue. You may have some energy, but it is a nervous, agitated type of energy with no real core to it. You cannot concentrate. You may fidget or have insomnia.
So, this formula purports to build up the Yin side of things. I took this and immediately felt sedated. I ended up sleeping in the middle of the day, which is rare. I slept a lot the next day. I felt really sedated. It was like the Seroquel was turbocharged. I decided this was not what I needed. I need energy most of the time.
Gui Pi Wan (Restore the Spleen Pill)This formula strengthens the spleen (digestive function), nourishes the blood and calms the heart. The Heart is associated with an agitated mind and insomnia. I did not feel much taking this formula. I did feel calm and sedated. Again, not what I was looking for. This formula is indicated for agitated, nervous depression and SSRI withdrawal. Consider the fact that a weak digestion could limit the effectiveness of food, supplements and medications.
Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan (Supplement the Middle Qi Pill)This formula has warming herbs and tonic herbs to strengthen digestion and restore the Yang qi of the body. When Yang qi is strong the energy goes upward as it should - this could be interpreted as proper circulation to the brain. This formula did make me feel warm in the solar plexus area and gave me some energy. Spleen in Chinese medicine is digestive function. Dysfunction in this system could lead to loose, water stools, bloating, lack of energy, weak muscles, headache.
Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan (Golden Cabinet Kidney Qi Pill)This is a formula to build kidney Yang. It is actually the same as Liu Wei Di Huang Wan but it adds aconite and cinnamon bark to warm the kidneys. It is also know as Rehmannia 8. After taking this I felt a warmth in my lower back and some energy.
The combination of the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan and the Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan was very warming and seemed to increase circulation and energy. Since Chinese medicine is subtle, don't expect quick results, but in my case after a few days I could feel my energy increasing and a pleasant warmth throughout my body. I think it is safe to say that I suffer a chronic deficiency of Yang and Qi. This jives with my symptoms of low energy, sitting motionless for long period, weak voice, foggy mind, low mental energy. Someone with strong Yang but weak Yin would not be served by the warming herbs. They might benefit from more calming and cooling herbs which can also increase energy (replenish the wood on the fire). It isn't all about stimulating or sedating, but finding the right balance between the two. It might take some time to regain that balance.
I feel better and better each day. I'll continue taking the herbs until I feel that I don't need them or if I start to feel too hot or experience any negative effects. I hope this helps.
Posted by Hombre on May 24, 2010, at 3:05:03
In reply to Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Hombre on May 23, 2010, at 23:00:21
A comprehensive look at the kidneys in TCM and how they relate to the endocrine system as well as other systems:
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 24, 2010, at 10:24:54
In reply to Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Hombre on May 23, 2010, at 23:00:21
Thank you for the information. I think TCM can be beneficial if you understand it well and your symptoms. It's complex, though, for the average person. Hard to do on your own unless you're experienced. Myself, I just try one herb at a time and try to understand the effects. For example, I'm working with ginger now because I have unexplained bouts of nausea at times. Not only does the ginger help with nausea, it also helps my mental health. I don't know if it is yin or yang I'm affecting in my digestive system. I don't have adrenal fatigue, so I rule out an imbalance in the kidneys. My kidney function is normal. However, there could be imbalance in the heart and liver owing to the fact of all the medications I take plus my smoking habit. The smoking alone could definitely cause an imbalance of yin and yang in the heart and lungs. I think, however, my greatest imbalance lies in the digestive system, which is why the ginger works so wonderfully for me. Can you offer me any suggestions as far as specific herbs that balance digestive function besides ginger? It would be greatly appreciated. There also might be imbalance in spleen qi as well.
Posted by Hombre on May 24, 2010, at 21:17:09
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Lao Tzu on May 24, 2010, at 10:24:54
Hi Lao Tzu,
General deficiency of the Spleen may have the following symptoms:
decreased appetite; sallow complexion; fatigue; shallow breathing or shortness of breath; little desire to talk; epigastric and/or abdominal bloating (especially after eating); loose or unformed bowel movements. Secondary symptoms may include weak or emaciated extremities; edematous extremities; inhibited urination; decreased amount of (pale colored) menstrual flow. The tongue typically manifests with a pale body, toothmarks, and a thin white coating; the pulse tends to be weak and slow.
Representative Herbs: codonopsis (dangshen), astragalus (huangqi), atractylodes (baizhu), hoelen (fuling), dioscorea (shanyao), lotus seed (lianzi), coix (yiyiren), dolichos (biandou), jujube (dazao); citrus (chenpi), shen-chu (shenqu).
Representative Formulas: Four Major Herbs Combination (Si Junzi Tang); Six Major Herbs Combination (Liu Junzi Tang).
If there are some cold symptoms as well, such as abdominal pain that improves with the application of heat and pressure; cold extremities; poor appetite; abdominal bloating; loose or unformed stools, the following herbs and formulas may help:
Representative Herbs: dry ginger (ganjiang), aconite (fuzi), evodia (wuzhuyu), zanthoxylum (chuanjiao), clove (dingxiang), atractylodes (baizhu), codonopsis (dangshen).
Representative Formulas: Ginseng and Ginger Combination (Lizhong Tang), Fill the Spleen Formula; Magnolia and Atractylodes Combination (Shipi Yin).
You can look up individual herbs (by latin, common or Chinese name) here:
http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/bulkherbs.html
The individual herb pages also list some common conditions helped by each herb.
I think codonopsis (a milder substitute for ginseng), atractylodes, astragalus, jujube (Chinese red date), citrus/tangerine peel (chen pi), clove, and hoelen all tend to be used to eliminate dampness and shore up the overall digestive function. They tend to be heating and drying, so if you already tend to be dry, have constipation, feel hot, we may need to go another route. I hope that helps. The formula I'm taking right now, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan, is a general tonic and it might not hurt to try that. Gui Pi Wan is purported to calm the heart and help with insomnia and anxiety.
I used to smoke for a long time and just recently quit. If I didn't feel ill from smoking I'd probably still do it, so I know how that goes. I found out that smoking induces the cytochrome CYP1A2 enzyme, which may reduce my blood levels of the mirtazapine (remeron) I take, so I decided I couldn't do it anymore.
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 25, 2010, at 11:36:43
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Hombre on May 24, 2010, at 21:17:09
Thank you. Very helpful information. Will look into the herbs further. Where do you purchase Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan? I don't think I need the other tonic as I've been sleeping okay and my anxiety is not that bad. My main problem is the digestive system. I do have some of the symptoms for the spleen. Thanks again. Keep posting! Very interesting. I have had some good experiences with herbs. Ginger is really helpful, but I think I could improve upon that. Thanks!!
Posted by Hombre on May 25, 2010, at 19:19:13
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for EnergytoHombre, posted by Lao Tzu on May 25, 2010, at 11:36:43
I can't remember where I bought the tea pills from when I was in the US, but if I were to order I'd probably try this place:
http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/herb_pages/invigoratorteapill.asp
or
http://www.activeherb.com/buzhong/
The first link has the lowest cost that I've seen. The second site has several options. Both sites have a lot of information and seem pretty professional. If the product is from China, I'd probably want to make sure the manufacturing is GMP certified. Min Shan is a good brand. The Guang Ci Tang brand at activeherb.com is also GMP certified and looks like quality. Plum Flower is made in the US. There are actually lots of US companies that make Chinese herbal formulas.
Let us know if you decide to try it and if it helps. Since you seem to have a good sensitivity to your internal environment, I trust that you'll know if you are having a negative reaction and stop the trial. Herbs are relatively safe, so I think a little trial and error is a good experience.
Posted by Hombre on May 25, 2010, at 20:44:17
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on May 25, 2010, at 19:19:13
Here's another version called "Ginseng Elixir". Same formula with more of a traditional Western alternative medicine packaging:
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 26, 2010, at 14:22:46
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on May 25, 2010, at 19:19:13
Thanks for the info. Will definitely consider trying it. Thanks again!
Posted by Hombre on June 5, 2010, at 8:01:06
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Lao Tzu on May 26, 2010, at 14:22:46
I wanted to report that I'm having good results using Chinese patent formulas for energy. My metabolism seemed kind of slowed from the Seroquel and Mirtazapine I take. Warming up the kidneys has gotten rid of the edema and general puffy feeling I had. Strengthening my digestion has made my body respond to exercise with the addition of lean tissue. I had random anxiety and loss of concentration before but that is mostly gone too. It took a few weeks to start noticing something consistent, but there is no doubt that the herbs play their part in my overall program.
Posted by Lao Tzu on June 9, 2010, at 9:44:00
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Hombre on June 5, 2010, at 8:01:06
Good to hear. Keep posting with your results. I like hearing about people who have been helped using herbs since it can be tricky implementing herbs into one's regimen. I don't think most people would know how to use them without professional advice.
Posted by Hombre on July 15, 2010, at 18:48:32
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Lao Tzu on June 9, 2010, at 9:44:00
I went off the kidney tonic for a few days and noticed some apathy, lower libido, and more difficulty initiating actions. I didn't feel depressed, but my energy was not focused and I just didn't feel as together.
I think these symptoms are part of my overall constitution as well as side effects from the meds, especially libido. It is hard to find information on the energetic effects of psyche meds, but from what I have gathered and have felt personally, the meds affects kidney yin and yang and probably the liver to a certain extent. While the meds get rid of depression (and maybe blunt feelings overall), they also have side effects, namely apathy, lower libido/sexual dysfunction, weight gain, trouble concentrating, insomnia, anxiety.
It is sometimes difficult to be aware of these subtle aspects of one's emotional and mental energy, but they are definitely real.
To recap, I take a general blood/qi tonic that works mainly on the spleen (digestion). The result I get is more physical robustness - I workout and see more gains in terms of muscle. I feel more "solid" both physically and emotionally. I feel like I have a better time "digesting" new information. I don't feel hungry all the time and I don't get weird low blood sugar symptoms or feel like I'm not getting nutrition from my food, even though my diet is sometimes sketchy. The tonic I take is called Shi Quan Da Bu Wan, Ten Tonic Pills. There are many formulas that tonify the spleen and would probably be helpful for low-energy type depression, such as Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan (this one is very good for energy), Si Jun Zi Wan, Ba Zhen Wan. Some of the more elaborate formulas will have a simpler formula as its base and some herbs added to add more specific effects. This way you can get a formula that fits just right with your current state.
The kidney tonic I take is called Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan/Golden Cabinet Supplement Kidney Pills. It is a variation on Six Flavor Rehmannia/Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, which is a famous tonic for people that tend to burn the candle on both ends and end up burned out, feeling hot, agitated, having trouble sleeping, sweating. It replenishes liver and kidney yin. Added to this formula are cinnamon bark and aconite, which act to warm the kidney yang and thus give more sexual drive and reduce symptoms of coldness, less mojo, and on the more subtle level it reinforces will power. For this reason it is sometimes called Ba Wei Di Huang Wan (Ba = 8) It also gets rid of that lingering feeling of anxiety/fear which can also be caused by the meds and/or the illness.
I have not noted any side effects to date. If you decide to try herbs, take them religiously for at least several days or even weeks to see significant effects. Do not think digitally--think analog, sine waves. You need to gradually induce changes in your system.
Salud,
Hombre
Posted by Lao Tzu on July 16, 2010, at 11:53:25
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on July 15, 2010, at 18:48:32
Thank you for the informative post. I'm gravitating slowly toward trying one of the tonics, maybe for kidney and liver. So far, I've had some success with cinnamon for digestive issues such as nausea, and holy basil for emotional balance. I don't know how much of a dramatic effect they have had for me because I take other supplements, but there has been some improvement due to the herbs. And yes, I have had a lot of side effects from the meds like apathy, low motivation, fatigue, etc. The fatigue I'm gradually working out, but the low motivation as well as social withdrawal are two big symptoms I have. I don't know if herbs can help in regard to these two symptoms. I'm actually patiently waiting for the new generation of antipsychotics, which are 3-5 years out.
Posted by Hombre on July 16, 2010, at 18:45:14
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine: Formulas for Energy, posted by Lao Tzu on July 16, 2010, at 11:53:25
One herb I have not tried yet, but would like to, is eucommia bark. It strengthens the kidneys, the bones, and the sinews. I think as a stand alone herb it would work to tonify kidney yang.
Strengthening the spleen will help with energy. A bare-bones formula for that is Four Gentlemen Decoction (Si Jun Zi Tang/Wan). It is the basis for many spleen tonifying formulas. As I wrote above, I highly recommend Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan. It has a lot of good qi tonifying herbs. I felt really good taking it.
The reason I take Shi Quan Da Bu Wan (Comprehensive 10 Great Supplement Pill - my poor translation) is because it is the same as Ba Zhen Wan (which has 8 herbs), which is good for women since it builds blood, but adds cinnamon and something else I can't remember. I want my GF to get the benefits of Ba Zhen Wan, so I compromised by getting the Shi Quan Da Bu Wan so we could both have a general tonic. It seems to be working for both of us. My GF is doing a lot more exercise and the other day she told me she feels "light" as opposed to having heavy limbs.
This is the end of the thread.
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