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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by WaterSapphire on August 27, 2008, at 12:13:10
This is truly strange...
I will admit that I have no clue what is going on here and I am babbling on maybe about this.
I had cut way down on my mag supplement last week, and by Friday was hardly taking much. First I must say when not eating foods that had it in it or not getting enough in food, I immediately started having problems within a few days emotionally more than normal. I was supposed to get this 24 hour urine test that I requested from a not so helpful doctor to see if I was wasting these things as I seemed to have been in March. Long story short as possible, I haven't been able to get the test done and have no jug lol. I got so bad physically in such a short time the pain was horrible (physical pain and weakness) to where I could not walk very well. I have had low calcium in the past once that I know of, so I drink milk and eat cheese, but I always feel worse with that in my system even though I take no supps unless I was on the slow mag. My poor husband was begging me by Monday to please take my Magnesium. He was like why are you not taking this...and I was like the doctor said not to take the supplement while I was gonna do the testing. So, I started eating sunflower seeds like mad. UGGHH,(the raw kind), because I was having other problems that seem directly related to mag. I cannot um go. (sorry if TMI). We bought almonds yesterday because I know they have magnesium in them. I ate a lot of them, not good I know when I am heavy and need to lose weight...but the sunflower seeds helped after a day or so...and today...I feel somewhat normal. I also had to have a big glass of Gatorade too today. It seems I have a problem with potassium as well. I am very careful not to do to much with potassium as I would not want to end up hyperkalemic. Maybe next month, I will have to buy more foods that are magnesium rich and see how that works on top of a lower dose supplement. I have no idea what to do. I still want to get this test redone, but I am stuck at home for now. I cannot not take it.
I try...I really do...and when I do not take it I suffer the consequences. It is the one thing I can say in my life, that has helped pain and seems to keep me somewhat level. I am not a vitamin nut. I have no vitamins in my house, but the mag and some supplemental potassium and prescription vitamin D. I am not malnourished for goodness sakes and I am eating as healthy as I can. I obviously need to really look into this more. No one should get so much relief from a supplement. I need to see a doc for my ocd and stuff too, but having less pain...being able to move better...and feeling somewhat normal really do help me. I feel like a mag addict...what is wrong with me??? I do not smoke, and only drink every so many months. I get no immediate gratification from taking a pill just because it is a pill. Well, thank goodness for some small shred of hope.Here is a website with foods and it was more comprehensive than some I have viewed.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=75
Looks like I need to add pumpkin seeds and more spinach. Love spinach, but not knowing if I have kidney stones I gotta watch the oxalates.
:)
Posted by JLx on August 27, 2008, at 22:02:29
In reply to Yes, another post about magnesium...randomnesss, posted by WaterSapphire on August 27, 2008, at 12:13:10
One suggestion for you -- try putting your daily food intake into a diet site like Fitday. Then you will know what nutrients are in your food and how your intake compares with recommended. I have been doing this the last couple days and am finding it's kind of fun and definitely interesting. You may see some imbalances that you didn't know were there. I've been pretty surprised that my potassium was not higher and that my sodium was so high, for instance. And it usually takes something like nuts to shoot my magnesium up over calcium.
I have a quick reaction to magnesium too. When I first started taking it, I went off my meds (Zoloft, Provigil) the next day and haven't taken them since. Now, some years later, I still notice the difference if I fall behind in my magnesium intake. I used to have lots of suicide ideation before and automatic negative thoughts, e.g. "I wish I was dead". If I have that thought now, I usually realize I've not taken much magnesium, take more magnesium and then am fine.
Have you had any blood or other tests recently?
JL
Posted by WaterSapphire on August 27, 2008, at 23:47:57
In reply to Re: Yes, another post about magnesium...randomnesss » WaterSapphire, posted by JLx on August 27, 2008, at 22:02:29
Fitday, they are still up and running...
I used to go on there back in 2002. I love that
site. I forgot about that.
The types of ideation that you have had, are what I get sometimes if I do not take it. It makes no sense but it is true. I will go from those thoughts to wondering why was I thinking like that. I know I need something else especially for the OCD but even the mag helps my extreme anxiety if taken the right way. But it seems, the salt, potassium, and calcium are all important too. I will try the Fitday to see what it says over time to kind of monitor how I am doing. I have had recent labs, and all of them were pretty much ok, except for some elevated metanephrine and dopamine in a 24 hour urine and elevated sed rate, with a serum cortisol that some doctors would not consider elevated. Funny thing is, my wbc count which has been high and even abnormally so since 2003 almost every time (not all the time) was lower than it has ever been...and in the normal range. It was 7. The magnesium also, seems to help my blood pressure problems if taken...it is not perfect but it really helps.
I am glad it helps you too. Maybe we will never know why, but it helps.Peace
Chelle
Posted by JLx on August 28, 2008, at 7:36:00
In reply to RE:Jlx, posted by WaterSapphire on August 27, 2008, at 23:47:57
> The types of ideation that you have had, are what I get sometimes if I do not take it. It makes no sense but it is true. I will go from those thoughts to wondering why was I thinking like that.
I was often very depressed feeling, but other times I didn't think I was feeling "that bad" but I would have "I wish I were dead" and the like running through my mind. I used to wake up in the morning right into a feeling of wanting to put a gun to my head. I believe the explanation of what's happening there is that calcium in high quantities is an excitotoxin to the cell. Why that should manifest as suicidal or other extremely negative ideation is another question.
An interesting article on excitotoxins: http://www.smart-drugs.net/ias-excitotoxins.htm
I read the book he mentions, "Excitotoxins" by Russell Blaylock, but felt like much of it went over my head. I don't have much of a science background. I avoid MSG now, and have kicked my Diet Pepsi habit again for the umpteenth time due to the aspartame. And dyes, which was in Blaylock's book, I think. I discovered they keep me awake at night, for one thing. I used to love Ruby Red Squirt, but it's guaranteed to induce insomnia. I had forgotten that there's glutamate in wheat and dairy, which is probably why I feel better when I avoid that too, which I'm doing now too.
If you notice in that article all the mentions of magnesium, I think it's no fluke that some of us feel so much better mentally/emotionally when we take it.
What kind of magnesium do you take? Did you see the thread above by Loops discussing her good experience with orotate minerals?
That's good that your blood tests were ok.
JL
I know I need something else especially for the OCD but even the mag helps my extreme anxiety if taken the right way. But it seems, the salt, potassium, and calcium are all important too. I will try the Fitday to see what it says over time to kind of monitor how I am doing. I have had recent labs, and all of them were pretty much ok, except for some elevated metanephrine and dopamine in a 24 hour urine and elevated sed rate, with a serum cortisol that some doctors would not consider elevated. Funny thing is, my wbc count which has been high and even abnormally so since 2003 almost every time (not all the time) was lower than it has ever been...and in the normal range. It was 7. The magnesium also, seems to help my blood pressure problems if taken...it is not perfect but it really helps.
> I am glad it helps you too. Maybe we will never know why, but it helps.
>
> Peace
> Chelle
Posted by WaterSapphire on August 29, 2008, at 1:45:12
In reply to RE:Jlx » WaterSapphire, posted by JLx on August 28, 2008, at 7:36:00
Thank you JLX for all the great comments and info.
I am going to have to check into the different things you have posted. I was taking citrate powder for the mag, and lately was taking just some slow mag (slow release magnesium with calcium), But I would like to get one of the other kind to try that are not with extra sodium like the citrate. I think I read Loops post, but will have to check into it again. I have never heard of excitotoxins. Very interesting sounding. Thank you again by the way. I am going to look into this from all angles lol...Peace and TGIF
Posted by JLx on August 29, 2008, at 7:09:38
In reply to RE:Jlx, posted by WaterSapphire on August 29, 2008, at 1:45:12
When I first started taking magnesium glycinate (I now take mg taurate, malate, orotate and/or glycinate) I refrained from all dairy and didn't take even a multi with calcium in it. It felt like it took about 6 months before my magnesium/calcium ratio was completely corrected. George Eby, who has the site that gave me the idea that magnesium might help my depression, has said that when magnesium doesn't help people it's often because they don't cut out the calcium in their diet/supplement. You can always add it back, but since you are having such a dramatic reaction to supplementing with magnesium I would definitely try not taking calcium for a while. If you feel you do need it, take it at a completely different time.
If you've never been to his site, George has done a lot of research and experimenting himself with magnesium, so you might find info there you won't find anywhere else -- that kelp is high in magnesium but also high in glutamates, for instance:
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#obama
Or take a look at this list of foods that have more magnesium than calcium:
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html#moremag
Cocoa powder tops the list. I used to be a chocaholic and I noticed a big difference in that respect when I started supplementing with magnesium.
I don't always agree with everything Eby says, and he does some extraneous editorializing -- even about Barack Obama, I see! -- but in general, I've found very helpful info there.
http://www.mgwater.com/ is another good magnesium site.
I'm sure you want to hear from somebody else on this subject too, so I hope they jump in here. :)
JL
> Thank you JLX for all the great comments and info.
> I am going to have to check into the different things you have posted. I was taking citrate powder for the mag, and lately was taking just some slow mag (slow release magnesium with calcium), But I would like to get one of the other kind to try that are not with extra sodium like the citrate. I think I read Loops post, but will have to check into it again. I have never heard of excitotoxins. Very interesting sounding. Thank you again by the way. I am going to look into this from all angles lol...
>
> Peace and TGIF
>
Posted by WaterSapphire on August 29, 2008, at 16:29:02
In reply to RE:Jlx » WaterSapphire, posted by JLx on August 29, 2008, at 7:09:38
Oh, thank you for the extra site and help. I think this will be really really helpful for me.
I have been very familiar with the mgwater site. It is a great site. I even wrote Paul the guy who runs the site, and he was really nice and helpful.
I have even thought about getting the spring water they have since it has a lot of magnesium in it and would be one way to just add it to my meals. TO know even one person has experienced a good thing with magnesium, is really really helpful for me. I think it is really awesome to be able to see something so simple be so helpful for some of us. I am interested in researching this further. Maybe someday I would even do a scholarly journal article review. That would be reverting back to my days of nerddom :)
Posted by Netch on September 15, 2008, at 12:01:34
In reply to RE:Jlx » WaterSapphire, posted by JLx on August 29, 2008, at 7:09:38
Hi Jlx
I think the good thing with Mg Orotate is that it seems to be absorbed well by cells. So far it is the only magnesium salt that has not induced orthostatic hypotension.
I seem to tolerate up to 4 grams of Mg Orotate but higher than that I get a distorted sense of smell. I think I'm going to add either Mg glycinate or Mg taurate to increase magnesium intake.
Where do you buy your magnesium glycinate, taurate and orotate?
I'm trying to find some place that sells it as a powder?/Netch
Posted by JLx on September 15, 2008, at 14:43:51
In reply to RE: magnesium » JLx, posted by Netch on September 15, 2008, at 12:01:34
> Where do you buy your magnesium glycinate, taurate and orotate?
> I'm trying to find some place that sells it as a powder?
>
> /NetchHi Netch,
You can get mg glycinate and mg orotate in bulk powder from Beyond A Century. I saw that company recommended here and have subsequently ordered from them numerous times without a problem.
Looks like you can get mg taurate at "Vitaspace" which I have not heard of before. I usually get Cardiovascular Research brand mg taurate from Vitamin Shoppe.
JL
Posted by Netch on September 16, 2008, at 9:51:32
In reply to RE: magnesium » Netch, posted by JLx on September 15, 2008, at 14:43:51
>
> > Where do you buy your magnesium glycinate, taurate and orotate?
> > I'm trying to find some place that sells it as a powder?
> >
> > /Netch
>
> Hi Netch,
>
> You can get mg glycinate and mg orotate in bulk powder from Beyond A Century. I saw that company recommended here and have subsequently ordered from them numerous times without a problem.
>
> Looks like you can get mg taurate at "Vitaspace" which I have not heard of before. I usually get Cardiovascular Research brand mg taurate from Vitamin Shoppe.
>
> JL
>
>Thanx for the websites :-)
Posted by MoparFan91 on October 11, 2008, at 23:08:09
In reply to RE:Jlx » WaterSapphire, posted by JLx on August 29, 2008, at 7:09:38
George Eby is an incredible man. A charlatan, that is. He gives false information. The main deception on there is the implication that Calcium is not necessary for human functions and that it's bad for anyone to take Calcium supplements. Basically, he's a conman.
My experience with the Calcium/Magnesium thing is that, in the late summer of last year, I cut out dairy. I took some Magnesium supplements (but no Calcium). I thought this would help my mental health, as suggested by George Eby.
However, about 6 months later, the lack of dairy & calcium began to backfire in a bad way. Because of the negative effects that I had been experiencing due to cutting out the dairy/calcium, I added back dairy foods just several days ago. I also began taking Calcium supplements again. I'm now taking Calcium/Magnesium at a 2:1 Calcium/Magnesium ratio.
Posted by JLx on October 12, 2008, at 17:17:13
In reply to RE:Jlx, posted by MoparFan91 on October 11, 2008, at 23:08:09
A charlatan and a conman? That's a bit harsh, isn't it? His website is about his personal experience, his research and his conclusions from both. If your mileage varied, well, that's the nature of this sort of thing. Mine did not! Magnesium has been the best "antidepressant" I've ever been on, the only one that has been consistently effective, going on around 5 years now. If I eat too much calcium containing food and certainly if I took calcium supplements too (as I was doing when I had a calcium kidney stone, which is not an experience anyone would want to repeat!) I am right back there in deep depression, thinking negative thoughts like "I wish I were dead".
I believe it's unfair and grossly inaccurate to conclude the "implication" from Eby's long discussion of magnesium and other topics, is one that "calcium is not necessary for human functions".
His main point is about calcium EXCESS and magnesium DEFICIENCY, a point well taken, imo. He says,
"Nothing that I am saying should be construed to mean anything more than we must feed ourselves in a way that keeps our magnesium and calcium balance correct, or, in many of our cases, reestablish a proper, healthy calcium - magnesium balance, nearly always by reducing calcium overloads and increasing magnesium...
Like calcium and magnesium, phosphate is essential to every cell in humans, plants, animals - every living thing."
I'm sorry your experiment didn't work for you and hope your current calcium/magnesium supplementation regimen does; it would not work for me. I shudder to think of how awful I used to feel when I was calcium-overloaded, and what I may have done to my long term health. I owe Eby an enormous debt for putting that info on his site. And I also, incidentally, consider it entirely *my own responsibility* that I decided to take his advice.
JL
> George Eby is an incredible man. A charlatan, that is. He gives false information. The main deception on there is the implication that Calcium is not necessary for human functions and that it's bad for anyone to take Calcium supplements. Basically, he's a conman.
>
>
> My experience with the Calcium/Magnesium thing is that, in the late summer of last year, I cut out dairy. I took some Magnesium supplements (but no Calcium). I thought this would help my mental health, as suggested by George Eby.
> However, about 6 months later, the lack of dairy & calcium began to backfire in a bad way. Because of the negative effects that I had been experiencing due to cutting out the dairy/calcium, I added back dairy foods just several days ago. I also began taking Calcium supplements again. I'm now taking Calcium/Magnesium at a 2:1 Calcium/Magnesium ratio.
Posted by WaterSapphire on October 13, 2008, at 6:52:38
In reply to RE:Jlx » MoparFan91, posted by JLx on October 12, 2008, at 17:17:13
I need to get back to taking magnesium every day even though I cannot take large amounts of it...
Too much calcium ='s horrible symptoms for me both physical and mental. I know, I feel like horse pucky today because I had too many calcium containing foods and hardly any magnesium.
I feel sick, and my poor heart was beating off the wall.
Had to take extra mag this morning. Will have to take more later. Hubby notices I have not been taking it like I was, and believe me...I can tell the difference. I take more mag the calcium.
Posted by oceancat on October 19, 2008, at 18:03:47
In reply to RE:Jlx, posted by WaterSapphire on October 13, 2008, at 6:52:38
Hi magnesium experts!
I just bought TwinLab 400 mg magnesium oxide before I read the magnesium posts. Is it still worth taking, or should I go out and buy another type? What daily dose for depression and PMS irritability? Take in morning or evening? Thanks!
oceancat
Posted by JLx on October 20, 2008, at 7:54:43
In reply to Magnesium questions, posted by oceancat on October 19, 2008, at 18:03:47
> Hi magnesium experts!
>
> I just bought TwinLab 400 mg magnesium oxide before I read the magnesium posts. Is it still worth taking, or should I go out and buy another type? What daily dose for depression and PMS irritability? Take in morning or evening? Thanks!
>
> oceancatWell, as usual, I would have to say....it depends. Mg oxide does work for some people. Even with poor absorbability, it may be better than nothing if you're really deficient.
Do you also take calcium? Eat a lot of dairy or other calcium rich foods? One reason why I became so magnesium deficient, and therefore mg helped me so much to supplement, is because I was calcium overloaded. I had to take a LOT of magnesium in the early days to balance that. And even though mg helped me right away, it also felt like it took several months to actually get more balanced overall.
Depending on your situation, your mileage may vary considerably.
It's a fact though, that studies have shown that most Americans are not getting the RDA, which in itself may be too low for our modern stress filled lifestyles. Magnesium is also depleted by high fat, high sodium, high refined carb diets, alcohol, cola drinks, etc. Check out this questionnaire and see how you come out:
http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm
You will have to experiment to see when to take it and how much. Some kinds of mg are more sedating than others, and some people find mg energizing rather than calming.
You could try the mg oxide until you get something else. And when you do, try to find a quality product like Cardiovascular Research Magnesium Taurate or Carlson's Magnesium Glycinate. (There are other brands too, these are just two suggestions.) The only problem with taking the mg oxide is that if it doesn't do much, you won't know if it's because of the type of mg, if you're not taking enough, if you're not actually deficient, etc.
So, depending on how much you calculate this experiment may be worth to you, you may want to just get a different kind and try that instead.
This nutritionist's page has a formula based on body weight, which is taken from "The Magnesium Factor" by Mildred Selig, a long time researcher in magnesium. http://www.krispin.com/magnes.html I've read this book and highly recommend it. I also recommend "The Magnesium Miracle" by Carolyn Dean, M.D. Here's a page by her discussing magnesium: http://www.drcarolyndean.com/articles_the_magnesium_miracle.html
I've heard conflicting advice about whether to take it on an empty stomach or with food, but most say to take in divided doses.
I take magnesium glycinate at night, and mg taurate, malate or orotate at other times, or also at night. Mg glycinate is the most sedating of them all to me now, but when I first used to take it, I took it during the day and didn't notice sedation.
You can also use magnesium oil, which is magnesium chloride on your skin (expensive and something of a rip off, imo) or take Epsom salt baths (magnesium sulfate).
And don't forget food! Pumpkin seeds are an excellent source of magnesium. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=75#foodsources
JL
Posted by oceancat on October 21, 2008, at 10:17:56
In reply to Re: Magnesium questions » oceancat, posted by JLx on October 20, 2008, at 7:54:43
Hi,
Thanks for all the magnesium info. I did go out and buy magnesium glycinate -- didn't want to fool around with something that might not be very effective. They're very big pills, though! I think I have calcium overload too due to my diet, which never occurred to me, so I am hopeful magnesium will be helpful for me. Divided doses is a good idea too, as diarrhea was a slight problem with the oxide. Thanks again!
oceancat
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