![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 3 of 3. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Anonymoose on November 15, 2007, at 7:40:27
In reply to Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine prod?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 23, 2002, at 23:00:07
Hi all, new poster here, having recently gone through many of the old archives. To comment on 3BE's question about B6 (pyridoxine) and l-dopa:
This morning I experienced the nullifying effects of a B6 supplement (50mg B6 and other B/C vitamins) on l-dopa taken in conjunction (obtained from ~100g cooked fava beans).
Apparently B6 is a cofactor for the decarboxylation of l-dopa; vitamin B6 enhances peripheral conversion of l-dopa to dopamine, making less readily available for use in the CNS (across the BBB). Link to a handout from a Howard pharmacology class:
http://www.med.howard.edu/pharmacology/handouts/parkinsons.htm
I definitely had a more pronounced response to the fava beans the night before, taken without anything else in conjunction. Whereas the initial response to the l-dopa was noticeably beneficial (both activating and calming, re: BarbaraCat's experience with Mucuna Pruriens), the l-dopa taken with B Complex was not nearly as helpful. If anything, it made me both drowsy and jumpy at the same time. Perhaps the vitamin C along with the B complex helped convert the peripheral dopamine too quickly into NE and epinephrine running free inside/outside my CNS. The effect was that random noises outside my window would cause me to startle very easily, and feel a sharp adrenaline-like spike. Hopefully future intake of l-dopa without the B-complex vitamin will continue to have positive effects.
A little about me: 27yo male, with a 9-year unipolar depressive spiral. Includes some anxiety and agitation, but most prominently apathetic and anhedoic in nature.
What I feel is the most striking feature, and I think most important to understanding the cause and treatment, is the increasing loss of "feeling" over time, into increasingly anhedonic states. I can trace the disease's progression in terms of increasing loss of sensitivity to "pleasure-states/stimuli", if you will.
Over the last 9 years or so I've slowly lost the ability to "feel" certain things (loss of dopamine receptor sensitivity, perhaps?) The ability to "feel" music, to be able to "crush" on a love interest. Then went the ability to get a buzz off a cigarette (social smoker). Then I slowly lost buzz-response to caffeine, alcohol, and finally P-stims ritalin and adderall.
Along the way my SE and NE pathways have probably gotten all out of whack as well, probably in large part in response to the DA troubles. Zoloft was the first AD tried (7 yrs ago) and had a wonderful (euphoric, almost) initial effect, but pooped out after a month. Since then I've tried other SSRIs, Effexor, and Wellbutrin with little benefit. Have always had to augment those with ritalin or adderall, but now both of those Pstims have pooped out completely as well.
I've been getting more and more desperate for relief and more and more convinced that the DA pathways are the key to my problem, so I'm waiting for selegeline (l-deprenyl) to arrive from a euro pharmacy.
Anybody else here have a similar experience? Feel free to email me if you'd like (babblemail or through board posts).
Deperately wanting to feel again...
> A few months ago I read on Pubmed about a study that said that l-phenylalnine supplementation inhibits either tyrosine hydroxylase (the thing that turns l-tyrosine into l-dopa) or the thing that turns l-dopa into dopamine (aromatic hydroxylase or something like that. Not sure which one it inhibits? Does anyone know about l-phenylalanine inhibiting dopamine production?
>
> L-phenylalanine seemed like a good thing to take since unlike most amino acids it actually crosses the blood brain barrier & seemed to have some slight amphetamine like effect after 2 weeks of 1500 mg/morning on an empty stomach (Twinlab w/o vitamin B6 was the only brand that worked for me, country life w/ B6 had no effect). But I stopped taking it after reading the dopamine inhibition article & now I can't find the article I read (in Pubmed).
>
> Also, why do many l-phenylalanine supplements contain vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) when vitamin B6 completely nulls the dopamine enhancing effects of levodopa?
>
> I used to take l-tyrosine but stopped since it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier & can only be transported to the brain by a carrier that is already saturated by a normal diet. I also noticed no effects & it seemed a waste of time/money.
>
> But I wonder if tyrosine or phenylalanine supplementation would be a good idea if you were taking Dexedrine or Adderall everyday & thus constantly depleting your dopamine stores or perhaps like many supplements found at the health food store it is a waste of money?
Posted by bleauberry on November 16, 2007, at 19:26:09
In reply to Re: Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine p, posted by Anonymoose on November 15, 2007, at 7:40:27
I sympathize with you. I am in that anhedonic state too. I always figured it was a dopamine thing or a norepinephrine thing. But honestly, everything I have tried along those lines, either natural or drug, made me feel so much worse. I am now of the thought that it is not a matter of how much NA or DA are there, but how much is firing. How much actual communication is going on between cells.
Keep in mind that no matter how much DA or NA you have onhand, they are controlled by the glands...adrenal and pituitary. You can increase DA and NA all you want, but if those glands are sluggish, the neuros won't work. A saliva test (4 samples in a day) can be taken by online labs to measure your adrenal function. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it is burned out, based on drug history, the stress those drugs put on the adrenals, and your symptoms.
The first hint of this to me was when I was on antidepressants and I had a daily pattern...fair morning, bad sinking in the afternoon, miraculous recovery feeling quite well in the evening. Every day. Over and over. When I got my adrenals tested, guess what, my cortisol levels followed the pattern exactly...or more accurately, caused the pattern.
A cheap easy test...buy good quality Maca Root powder, tab, or capsule. Try it. It directly stimulates all the glands...adrenals, pituitary, hypothalamus, and thyroid (but doesn't increase thyroid lab readings). You should know within 1 day to 1 week what it does for you. If it does anything and you like it, then you know your problems are not neurotransmitter related, but glandular related.
What is really strange with me is that while our symptoms seem related to DA or NA, serotonin manipulation actually helps me more. DA and NA manipulation make me worse, or if they work they only do so for a day or two. Again, that is a sign of sluggish glands unable to keep up.
Sounds easy enough. But treating hypoadrenalism (low cortisol) is a marathon of its own. Unless you can find a doc who will prescribe phsyiological replacement doses of hydorcortisone (5mg 1 to 3 times per day). Those docs are rare. Also, keep in mind thyroid. Even if your T3, free T3, T4 free T4, TSH and thyroid antibody tests all look "normal", a doctor needs to treat the patient not the numbers on paper. Many people who appear normal on paper, but have symptoms, have improved dramatically with small doses of T3 or Armour.
I don't know. We all tend to get engrossed in thinking about how the brain works, but we forget about the control centers that are telling the brain what to do. No matter how many neuros we give the brain either naturally or artificially, if the brain isn't getting the right instructions on what to do with them, they are useless.
Mercury clogs up receptors causing many psychiatric disturbances, anhedonia being one of them. No matter how much NA or DA is there, it doesn't matter because the receptors are clogged. Do you have amalgam fillings? Have you had a lot of flu shots? If so, you need look no further to figure out where the anhedonia and sluggish glands are coming from.
Anyway, just stuff to think about. I hope deprenyl works great. That would be awesome.
Posted by rskontos on November 19, 2007, at 18:47:48
In reply to Re: Does l-phenylalnine inhibit natural dopamine p, posted by bleauberry on November 16, 2007, at 19:26:09
Bleauberry, are amalgam fillings the silver ones and if you have them removed do the effects go away? rk
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.